Devastating Rogue Nerf on PTRFollow

http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/7159/sinistercallingqu5.jpg

No Warrior nerf to go with it.

This is a matter of principle.

Also, full resil with cloth armour, I'm sure :P

...what would they nerf? reduce the impact of imp. 2h spec from 5% to 2.5% when maxed? maybe nerf the improved MS damage from 5% to 2.5%? turn imp. WW into a four point talent that gives you .25s reduced cooldown per point?

it's probably a 1.5% DPS nerf. 30% hemo damage * 5% nerf. this is still significant.

Great, now blizz wants me to get rid of my daggers as well.

I was thinking any of these:

Imp intercept down to 2.5 second reduction per talent point.

20 second intercept with all modifiers.

Mace Stuns reduced to 3 sec base.

Change the hidden CD on mace stun procs from 6 seconds to 10.

Remove the bonus damage on Overpower.

3 sec cd on hamstring.

Honestly, Warriors are more OP than PvP geared rogues. Rogues with Glaives and 4t6 are retarded, but why not just remove the hemo bonus from the 4set? No one cares about trispec anyway.

Aye, but that rules out the stun/fear immunity. You're the one to state fair is fair here, you gotta stick with the facts ;)

They're doing well enough. They're getting as much representation in the MLG and WSVG as mages, priests, and shamans. Paladins are the real class they need to take a look at.

the problem with warriors is you cant really nerf us anymore than we already are without severely curtailing the power of the class. theres a reason why shaman, druids and paladins have been nerfed instead of warriors (save for the enrage/death wish stacking early on in xpac, and a 5% reduction in flurry).

addressing each individual one:

intercept comes at a price; survivability and/or damage dealing capability. if we're in zerker, storing rage, then we're the most vulnerable class in game when it comes to magic damage. +10% damage from all sources stacks multiplicatively, essentially giving warriors 10% less HP than listed vs magic damage attacks.

mace stun is already at 3s at max. you might be thinking of the stormherald/deep thunder procced stun, which is a 1% chance to stun for 4s on hit. as it stands now, mace spec has a 9% proc rate on a 3.8 spd (stormherald) weapon, and about an 8% proc rate on a 3.6 (arena maces) spd weapon.

unless something changed that i dont know, there is no hidden CD on mace stuns, but there is DR. i hate the RNG system too, but sometimes she is a kind mistress, and sometimes she is a harsh one. if you're getting hit by more than one mace stun every 15s or so, then youre just getting really unlucky. be nice if they got rid of the entire stun mechanic altogether and added something more unique tho.

bonus damage on overpower? youre kidding right? you do know that, at 70, its like +50 damage....right? with impale factored in, thats a whole 110 extra damage on crit. i can understand the overpower hate as a rogue, but really, you could pick something better to complain about. maybe rend, or perhaps intervene.

3 sec CD on hammy....then put a CD on crip poison procs too. both ideas are dumb when you come right down to it. hammy is 7 rage and a GCD, cant be used in defensive stance, and unless you have endless rage or have someone proccing second wind and/or are under attack, you dont really have rage to spam that and do all the other **** you need to do unless you're just focusing on a single target, and even then it can be dependent on whether or not you get crits or if bubbles or high armor come into play.

as for warriors in pvp, youll be hard pressed to find someone who doesnt think rogues are the most OP pvp AND arena class. high damage, strong CC options, and high survivability all rolled into one. not to say they cant be countered, but there is something telling when double rogue teams can get quite far in the 2v2 standings (2100+ last i saw) as well as the fact that double rogue is now the foundation of a number of strong compositions in 3's and 5's.

no, its an awesome ability, but of all the things you picked to cry about, you picked overpower. i mean, may as well complain about a warlocks track demons or a priests mind soothe.

now, in wotlk, i can see rogues complaining about overpower a LOT more since itll be, talented, at a 2s cooldown.



sometimes a "tiny bit" is all it takes. back when the proposed lifebloom nerf (to the HoT part) was on the PTR, it was just a "tiny bit" but it was enough to severely gimp tree druid healing in raids. little bits add up to a lot when the class in question is already on the edge. and while it may not seem like it, warriors have been balancing the fine line of balance for some time.



i remember distinctly before BC came out, there were many calls from a number of warriors that the warrior class be made more viable in solo pvp, even at the cost of group power. the response, unanimously, from each of the other classes was "L2P, get a healer".

well, BC dropped, arenas came out, and we got our healers, and people havent stopped ******** since. so suck it.

alternatively, suggest an improvement (or number of improvements) to the warrior class that could, say, let us solo 2-3 targets like a well-played rogue or mage can. of course, that wont happen, because its been stated that warriors were built from the ground up as a group-oriented class. a more logical solution to the problem is to make all classes as group reliant as warriors. make rogues be absolutely completely destroyed by warriors, with no chance of victory whatsoever unless the rogue is vastly outgearing and/or outleveling the warrior. make DK's, and maybe hunters counter rogues with identical power, as well as like-specced hybrids (hybrids that adopt the more warrior, DK, or hunter-like aspects of their class, such as feral druids or ret pallies). likewise, make rogues completely dominate casters to a degree thats unheard of currently. however, make the survivability vs rogues (and thus, potential chance of winning) for a caster higher when paired with a warrior, DK, or hunter, or like-specced hybrids. then make rogues stand a much better chance vs their counters when in the company of a mage, warlock, or high-armor healer such as a shaman or paladin.

in short, balance the power of rogues around being in a group. in fact, dont stop at rogues, do that for EVERY class.

of course, you and i both know that wont happen, as not many classes (aside from warriors and shaman) are willing to sign that invisible contract that states "I, the undersigned, hereby state that I will suck *** in most, if not all forms of pvp (and some pve!), unless I am supported by one or more classes capable of covering for and combating my weaknesses" when you choose a class for creation.



well, rogues need at least ONE counter class, but currently the best that can be said is that arms warriors and frost mages kinda counter rogues. a good rogue can easily give an arms warrior a run for his or her money, doubly so if all CD's are up. since arena resets all CD's, thats never an issue. now, in dueling or bgs, if a rogue doesnt have their CD's, theres not much that can be done should a warrior get on said rogue (in dueling, most rogues have learned to counter this by saying "lemme wait for my CD's"), but aside from that somewhat rare occurrence, there isnt anything that dominates rogues the way mages dominate warriors, or warlocks dominate mages, or priests dominate paladins.

ultimately, i actually think rogues are doing pretty well in terms of balance. they kill casters fast and hard like theyre supposed too, and theyre about as slippery as youd expect. however, they dont die fast enough to their "hard" counters, and the number of hard counter classes present vs rogues is rather low. if i want anything from WotLK, its for warriors and one other class at least to dominate rogues into the ground in solo combat. keep rogues strong vs the soft targets theyre designed to kill, but lets really put some fear into them when it comes to their hard counters. instead of rogues saying "ok, this is a warrior, if i play it right, i could win this" i want all rogues to say "oh sh*t, its a warrior, even if i blow all my CD's hes got to be half-afk and i need to be REALLY lucky to pull this off."

kinda like how warriors are vs mages, druids, and paladins now.

Edited, Jul 14th 2008 9:23pm by Quor

Yea, I was simply stating that hunters have more spells/abilities that counter other classes than any other class. I know that you have to go 31 points into MM to get silence, but still. Even though you don't see many Survival hunters. They too have Wyvern Sting that can put you to sleep for 12 seconds. They then have readiness that makes that able to be used as soon as you trinket out of that or let it run through the duration. Also they have freeze traps. If played right survival can actually put one character out of a game for awhile. If they get a lucky flare that lands on you it could be you. I don't ever cry nerf on a class, because honestly I don't care. All classes are OP in their own way. The least OP class would be shamans, but they still are tough to kill when resto, and if played right I personally hate ele shammys. Enhancement aren't that bad, but their dps is pretty nasty. I was simply making a statement that hunters are an extremely OP class that flys under radar for some weird reason.

how so? what is it that a warrior does, especially, that makes it so hard for rogues? im pretty sure i do everything that *can* be done, and a rogue, done right, can just control the crap out of me. if the rogue doesnt want to blow a bunch of CD's its harder, but double evasion, double vanish and good use of shadowstep overwhelms me. i cant gain positioning because crip is on me full time. im reliant on mace stun procs to trinket crip and link it into an intercept stun so i can pull off enough damage to get ahead in the fight.

at best, i come out ahead (vs equally geared rogues) at about 20%. at worst, the rogue is up 20-40% by the end of things.

of course, thats just dueling, but im honestly wondering....what happens to you rogues vs warriors in a 1v1 situation?

my armory is alexsus @ anetheron US. in duels, i always give the rogue the opener, because lets face it, in a 1v1 situation in world pvp or bgs, they *will* get the opener.

oh, even if i am sword and board its a close fight, which, if i end up 1v1 against a rogue, duel or arena, thats what i do. i also dont touch zerker stance except to intercept if i get an opening or as a pre-empt against gouge.