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Thunder (shaman's 51 pt elemental talent)Follow

#1 Jul 12 2008 at 5:14 AM Rating: Decent
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...Looks so fun, "knocks back nearby enemies 200 yards" 45 second cooldown. (also does dmg and restores mana)

"Seeya later!"
#2 Jul 12 2008 at 5:54 AM Rating: Decent
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It looks like fun i am sure they ment 20 yards though lol

Sounds like it can also be with elemental mastery but thats probably a waste unless your in pve.

this ability is really going to help a lot combined with improved fire nova totem and for tauren war stomp.

I can see it now earth shock fire nova war stomp thunder to lock down a caster for a bit while throwing in a couple LBs or chain lightning in between stuns and by the time you thunder I would assume earth shock will be ready again. that's about 10 seconds of locking down a caster, pretty solid of you ask me.
#3 Jul 12 2008 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
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200 yards would be cool just for the heck of it.

Imagine AV...

"So, you're tagging Iceblood tower? Don't think so *****, go and defend SH!"
#4 Jul 12 2008 at 10:03 PM Rating: Good
It'd be better if you could use it on friendlies (with their permission).

"Everyone gather up on the bridge. Ready? Okay, ffllllllly!'
#5 Jul 13 2008 at 5:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Only question I have is:

Won't this effectively reset the fight for both sides? The shaman can heal themselves, and their opponent can heal/bandage, and we are back to the beginning?
#6 Jul 13 2008 at 6:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I think this was more of a way to help shaman get melee off him so he has a second to breath and try to get off a spell while the melee or group of melee readjust themselves.
#7 Jul 13 2008 at 8:08 AM Rating: Default
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Exactly, it's the ele shaman's way of saying "And now I'm pissed off, GET THE F*CK AWAY!".
#8 Jul 13 2008 at 9:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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It doesnt really give the Shaman much more than the chance to cast one spell of his choice. That could be a HW or a LB, whichever. That can either extend the fight a bit longer, or finish it with that nuke. Not to be laughed at, but not that overwhelming.

The real utility is in breaking the ever-deadly melee trains, and acting as an emergency close-range spell interrupt. For Tauren in particular that adds up to a lot of AoE interference; being able to Warstomp and Thunder should prove fun in BGs. One corollary though; expect there to be a unit cap added, "Up to five targets" would be my guess. You couldnt have a Shaman charging into the middle of a massive AV furball and tossing the entire enemy team off the bridge like some obscene meat explosion.

This could be a real strength for Elemental Shamans; it better be, as you have to give up NS for it.

Edited, Jul 13th 2008 1:11pm by Sinstralis
#9 Jul 13 2008 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
The elemental tree looks to be getting extreme PvP buffage for the upcoming expansion - which is awesome that shamans FINALLY have a "holy ****!" button and some CC/anti CC. In Particular, Thunder does look hella awesome, but there is no way it will have a 200yard pushback - I would think 20 tops, if it was 200, it will be put on a 5 or 10 minute cooldown.


While not my spec of choice, PvP is my bread and butter when it comes to why I play the game, so I'll happily be rocking an elemental shammy in WotLK.
#10 Jul 13 2008 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Moonkissed wrote:
Won't this effectively reset the fight for both sides? The shaman can heal themselves, and their opponent can heal/bandage, and we are back to the beginning?

20 yards is not really a big deal for any melee class other than Enhancement Shaman. What it will do is actually force Warriors/Druids to save their Intercepts/Feral Charges to recover distance instead of backing off whenever they feel like it and using it as a free interrupt/stun rotation tool like they do now. Likewise, it'll actually give Rogues a reason to need to Shadowstep to you and Ret Pallies will need to be a little more careful with their tools (Repentence, BoF, etc).

It's a great tool and a welcome new addition to the ******** but not even remotely approaching a reset.

Edited, Jul 13th 2008 6:24pm by Gaudion
#11 Jul 13 2008 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
You couldnt have a Shaman charging into the middle of a massive AV furball and tossing the entire enemy team off the bridge like some obscene meat explosion.


gosh that would look awesome.
#12 Jul 13 2008 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
20 yards is not really a big deal for any melee class other than Enhancement Shaman. What it will do is actually force Warriors/Druids to save their Intercepts/Feral Charges to recover distance instead of backing off whenever they feel like it and using it as a free interrupt/stun rotation tool like they do now. Likewise, it'll actually give Rogues a reason to need to Shadowstep to you and Ret Pallies will need to be a little more careful with their tools (Repentence, BoF, etc).


good point guadion, didn't even think that much into it.

only real pvp talent I am disappointed with is ancestral shift, it is too weak, requires 2 crits in a row, gives you immunity to melee for 3 seconds and has a 30 second cool down, I understand the cool down, but 30 seconds for such a short proc with such high requirements?

The talents limitations just don't seem to justify the points required for it and it seems to be too deep to be such a half assed talent, it looks good on paper but it needs improvement.
#13 Jul 13 2008 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
Gaudion wrote:
Moonkissed wrote:
Won't this effectively reset the fight for both sides? The shaman can heal themselves, and their opponent can heal/bandage, and we are back to the beginning?

20 yards is not really a big deal for any melee class other than Enhancement Shaman. What it will do is actually force Warriors/Druids to save their Intercepts/Feral Charges to recover distance instead of backing off whenever they feel like it and using it as a free interrupt/stun rotation tool like they do now. Likewise, it'll actually give Rogues a reason to need to Shadowstep to you and Ret Pallies will need to be a little more careful with their tools (Repentence, BoF, etc).

It's a great tool and a welcome new addition to the ******** but not even remotely approaching a reset.

Edited, Jul 13th 2008 6:24pm by Gaudion


I think that ability though, in combination with some of the other stuff elemental will be getting should actually put shaman back on a par with other classes for PvP. Even if it is only a 20 yard knockback, you could hit a melee train with thunder, drop an improved fire nova totem in anticipation of the intercept, and perhaps an earthbind totem, when nova pops you get your 2 second stun, while spamming rank 1 frostshock for a 25% snare chance with Storm, Earth, and fire.

Granted, it is a bit complicated and I still don't think shaman will be one of the easiest classes to PvP with, but at least now we're getting some tools to maintain some distance and cast primary spells. Either way, I'm eager to see the new elemental tree in action for PvP, I think other classes will have to watch out for shaman in BG's and arena, we won't be viewed as a free HK any more.
#14 Jul 14 2008 at 3:32 AM Rating: Decent
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More tools and utility are always great makes pvp more fun to play as when you have lots of different spells to use for different situations.
#15 Jul 14 2008 at 8:08 PM Rating: Good
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More than just being more fun, tools are what is necessary to win in PvP. Tools win matches, not raw strength. Why do you think classes like Rogues spec Subtlety instead of Combat? Tools. And that is Shamans' major problem in TBC right now. We're all brute strength and no finesse. Huge heals, huge nukes, huge hits... but no panic button, no control, no way to close or create distance, no way to get breathing room.

The only place brute strength actually matters is in 5v5, which is why... You guessed it. The one place DPS Shaman can compete at the moment.
#16 Jul 15 2008 at 2:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Agree with you there, although since you say it like that think we gonna have enough tools in expansion?
#17 Jul 15 2008 at 8:03 AM Rating: Decent
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I think Elemental Shaman might. If they had the tools they're getting in the expansion now they would definitely be fine. The thing is, all of other classes are getting all kinds of great new tools too. I think Elemental Shaman will be much more individually capable in the expansion and see an increase in representation in 2v2 and 3v3, but I'm still not expecting them to stack up on the upper half of PvP DPS-ers. Love to be wrong about that though.

Resto and Enhancement Shaman are in trouble, because they're getting the exact same thing they have now: more brute strength and almost no new tools. In fact, the biggest thing those two specs have to look forward to is Hex, which is trainable.

Restos are set to become crit-oriented heal-cannons with huge recovery potential, but the only new tools they're getting are the ability to remove curses--which only helps against a single ability (Curse of Tongues) against a single class, that class already being one of the easier ones for a Resto Shaman to live through--and Spirit Link, which has a very ambiguous description. We know what the cast range is. What is the link range? How does it choose link targets if there are more than two in the AoE? Is it physical? Magical? Dispellable? We don't know yet. All that aside, we're still looking to be almost entirely reliant on HW and LHW, which is already difficult or impossible to get off now depending on opponents, and the always dispellable Earth Shield.

Enhancement Shaman are pretty self-explanatory. Everything they're getting is oriented towards more damage, more damage, more damage. Lots have people have already been saying that once WotLK hits Elemental is going to become the PvP DPS build and Enhancement is going to become the PvE DPS build, and I agree with that wholeheartedly.
#18 Jul 15 2008 at 8:07 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:

Enhancement Shaman are pretty self-explanatory. Everything they're getting is oriented towards more damage, more damage, more damage. Lots have people have already been saying that once WotLK hits Elemental is going to become the PvP DPS build and Enhancement is going to become the PvE DPS build, and I agree with that wholeheartedly.


That's already true, although I'd point out that TBW is a pretty potent bonus for Enhancement Shaman.
#19 Jul 15 2008 at 8:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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RPZip wrote:
That's already true...

No, not really. There are more Elementals in 5v5, but there are still a fair number of Enhancements there, Enhancements enjoy just as much or more success in 3v3, and they definitely fair better in 2v2.

Quote:
... although I'd point out that TBW is a pretty potent bonus for Enhancement Shaman.

It's deceiving enough to look that way, isn't it? But if you'll carefully read the description you'll note that it leaves out fear immunity, very much unlike TBW and the new Druid and Warrior enrages. Which basically means as soon as an Enhancement Shaman pops Imp. SR, all you have to do is wax their Grounding or Tremor Totm (assuming either of them are even down in the first place), then fear them. At that point you and your partners can sit down in leather easy chairs, don your monacles and red velvet robes, and enjoy a nice cup of Earl Gray as you note from underneath your bushy mustaches in an overexaggerated accent how they've just foolishly wasted it. Quite.

Either way, it's a nice buff, but it's the only PvP-oriented buff they're getting. Elemental is still slated to be worlds better for PvP until unless these talent trees change drastically in beta before the official release.
#20 Jul 15 2008 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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There is a good chance elemental may be a strong competiter in dps while raiding in expansion still. We got no direct buffs to our lightning spells but the new lava burst and it's affect with flame shock will allow us to rely less on crit to be efficient casters as well as allow us to gear up for haste over crit. we will have to see though.
#21 Jul 15 2008 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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At that point you and your partners can sit down in leather easy chairs, don your monacles and red velvet robes, and enjoy a nice cup of Earl Gray as you note from underneath your bushy mustaches in an overexaggerated accent how they've just foolishly wasted it. Quite.


while this *is* a hilarious visual, youre not giving full credit to the posssibilities here. if you get feared during the SR, theres always trinket followed by another tremor totem, and even more than that theres the potential dispelling power that could be offered by a priest, warlock, or paladin teammate via spell devour, cleanse or dispel. any or all of these could work to counter the affect of fear on a shaman in a group setting, minus warrior fear (but thats on a longer CD than SR is).

alternatively, you could just wait until the first two fears go (trinket first one) and then hit SR. the last fear will have a duration of 2-2.5s and then youll be free to do your thing knowing youve got fear immunity for the nearly the whole time SR is up.

in short, yeah, it has a weakness, but one that wont be too hard to mitigate.
#22 Jul 15 2008 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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Quor wrote:
... youre not giving full credit to the posssibilities here. if you get feared during the SR, theres always trinket followed by another tremor totem, and even more than that theres the potential dispelling power that could be offered by a priest, warlock, or paladin teammate via spell devour, cleanse or dispel. any or all of these could work to counter the affect of fear on a shaman in a group setting, minus warrior fear (but thats on a longer CD than SR is).

alternatively, you could just wait until the first two fears go (trinket first one) and then hit SR. the last fear will have a duration of 2-2.5s and then youll be free to do your thing knowing youve got fear immunity for the nearly the whole time SR is up.

in short, yeah, it has a weakness, but one that wont be too hard to mitigate.

And... that doesn't strike you as insufficient? That the only new PvP tool Enhancement Shaman are slated to get is going to require a trinket or an inordinate amount of maintainance to justify? I mean, that's kind of the whole point, isn't it? That Shaman need to be more self-sustaining? If they're right back to relying on their team for everything then they're right back to where they are right now: in 5v5, and terrible in 2v2 and 3v3. If their only new tool is going to be that much of a headache to squeeze some use out of then it's really not much of an improvement.

That's why I believe Elemental is going to far surpass Enhancement come WotLK.
#23 Jul 15 2008 at 7:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I think we are debating the wrong point here slightly; Improved SR is not the issue, the problem is the strength of the Warrior and Druid abilities. Neither class particularly needed Fear immunity, they both have far better methods for closing distance than Shamans ever will have, namely stuns, spammable snares, and Intercept/Feral Charge. Shaman are already at a disadvantage to these classes, so why those two should gain such clearly OTT abilities (Berserk in particular is just....why....) and Shamans be given the watered-down version is beyond me.

Every class that Improved SR helps against has a second CC that will work just fine. Break Warlock kites = Fear; break Mage kites = Polymorph; break Druid roots (not that an Enh has any chance against a Druid anyway) = Cyclone; break Rogue snares/stuns (limited though they are) = Blind. Hunters are the exception, but Hunters can simply turn and run if they need to as they ought to be at substantial range.

As soon as SR is popped and that Snare immunity is realised, any class will simply use their alternate CC and wait it out. Why cut through 30% mitigation when you can just CC and GG.

I dont have any inherent dislike for the ability, I just cant understand why Warriors and Druids get essentially perfect anti-CC abilities when they needed them far less than Shamans.
#24 Jul 15 2008 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Sinstralis wrote:
(Berserk in particular is just....why....)

Because feral druids need a buff in arena that makes them a viable alternative to resto.

I'll put it this way: enhancement and resto were both at MLG Orlando, feral wasn't.
#25 Jul 16 2008 at 2:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Uh huh.

So Shamans can only have one Arena spec (Elemental), but for Druids that would be an unacceptable situation, which requires a heavy buff to correct?

We've already agreed that Elemental is the Arena spec, Enhance is the PvE spec, and Resto sucks for Arena so it's a PvE spec too.

Why must Druids be any different? Druid healing, already comprehensive in PvP, has been given an overhaul with yet another instant HoT and the ability to replenish Mana/Rage/Energy which is perfect for PvP healing, and you're telling me they needed a viable alternative?

But Shamans don't.

Please explain the disparity.

Edited, Jul 16th 2008 6:41am by Sinstralis
#26 Jul 16 2008 at 4:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Why must Druids be any different? Druid healing, already comprehensive in PvP, has been given an overhaul with yet another instant HoT and the ability to replenish Mana/Rage/Energy which is perfect for PvP healing, and you're telling me they needed a viable alternative?

But Shamans don't.

Please explain the disparity.


well, i think blizz is going out of their way to make sure every class gets some kind of pvp viability. i know shockwave in prot is making the idea of a prot pvp warrior much more attractive, not to mention some of the other stuff in the prot tree. even fury looks like it could be fun with an aerial aoe stun/damage ability and instant slams on BT crits for more burst damage (something fury lacks).

having said that, as of now, there have been a number of shaman of myriad spec reach the gladiator level. theyre mostly elem, with a few restos, and the rather rare enh, but it *has* been done. feral and balance druids are about on par with enh shaman in terms of being the least represented of the druid class, especially compared to the common resto cookie-cutter build and restokin, so this kind of an improvement fits with the overall idea behind what blizzard seems to be encouraging for the xpac. i hardly think elemental will be the *only* pvp spec for shaman, but the way the min/maxing game goes it probably will hold a lot of the cards so to speak. however, there is good reason in the right teams to bring along a resto or enh shammy, so they will have places.

i think the ultimate goal is both making all specs pvp viable as well as making it so that each spec is strong in its own niche. elementals might have the biggest niche. likewise, resto druids probably will have the biggest niche. but that doesnt exclude enh shammys or feral druids, or resto shammys and balance druids. it just means the more niche specs will require a specific type of setup in order to see maximum effectiveness. instead of 1% enh, 19% resto and 80% elem, maybe we'll see 60% elem, 20% resto and 20% enh. not a perfect breakdown by any means, but leaps and bounds better than what it is now, and theres always room for more improvement as xpac content unfolds.
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