Hi guys, I thought I had a good gear combo until I went to www.maxdps.com and saw what I thought were lesser gear rated higher than mine.
My armoury link is http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Khaz%27goroth&n=Thunderangel so you know what I'am talking about.
My main problems are the spellfire set that I have.
In my robe I have a +12 spell damage gem added to the 72 spell damage the robe gives me for a total of 84 all up.
But no stam and low int. with it.
Maxdps tells me that the Shroud of Lore'Nial has higher dps than my robe.
It has 61 damage plus a socket bonus of 2 spell damage and using a Veiled Noble topaz I'd have 68 spell damage all up, 16 short of what I already have but with more stam. and int.
Vestments of the Seawitch would be nice to but again less dps and a lot harder to get.
We skipped SSC and went to MH.
So I'am a little confused with that.
It wouldnt be until I hit the Sunwell gear I could improve on my dps so for progression do I sacrifice some dps for better stats elsewhere?
Then theres a similar argument with the Spellfire gloves versus the Enslaved Doomguard Soulgrips so buggered if I know.
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DPS gear confusionFollow
I think the reason it gave it as a higher number is because of the +hit
Be ready to take a loss in damage though in order to get more stam as it will become more and more necessary in MH/BT.
Be ready to take a loss in damage though in order to get more stam as it will become more and more necessary in MH/BT.
Anobix the Wise wrote:
I think the reason it gave it as a higher number is because of the +hit
Odd, the OP has 170 hit. Wonder if some gear was different before or forgot to enter the hit into MaxDPS.com? Lemme investigate.
Edit: When I entered your stats, OP, I found the Spellfire Robe MUCH higher than the Shroud of Lore'nial. Though it says you might still benefit more from some Tormented Demonsoul Robes(more of a sidegrade, a small downgrade if we're talking epic gems), probably due to all the crit(and they have more stam, so it's a win/win).
Edited, Jul 11th 2008 11:41pm by Poldaran
Thanks guys, I saw the Tormented robes as well but they were further down the dps list and I thought they were more for a Lock.
I also thought the same about the gloves I mentioned, again less dps but more stats.
The problem I have is dps.
Our raid leader is a fire mage to and he always tops the dps charts everytime without fail so theres a lot of expectation from us other mages to do well as well.
I usually sit around 6th on a good day so to lose any dps to gain stam. and int. would be beneficial as a dead mage cant cast but to lose to much dps would send me down the list a bit more.
And I'am already being told I need to do more dps so to lose anymore may jeapordise my spot in the raid group.
To be honest its starting to take some enjoyment out of the game as I'am always watching the dps meters but with what I have, flasks,food and oils theres not much more dps I can see possible.
Thats why I was unsure if its wise to look and stam. and int. now for progression, i didnt know if dps was a priority.
Also while I think of it now that I'am spell hit capped apart from spell damage what should I be looking at next, haste?
It takes an age to cast even with the talent points helping so I thought maybe haste would be good to build on.
Maybe I'am looking at all this the wrong way I'am not sure.
I was always told dps first, stats second.
And thanks guys for the help you've been a huge helping along the way with all this so I really do appreciate it.
ps..Ok now I'am really confused, according to maxdps I should be looking at Cape of Arcane Artricity over what I have even though it appears to have less dps and the same for Runed Spell Cuffs.
The main difference I can see is the haste rating, my gear doesnt have any but the other 2 do even though the stam, int and dps appearts to be less.
How does haste effect your dps rating?
I thought it was for increasing the cast time in spells, so therefore the quicker you cast the more dps you do with less dps compared to current items I have?
Also maxdps suggests +12 spell hit gems most of the time, if I replace my yellow ones then I lose my spell hit cap.
So this isnt as important as I first thought?
Edited, Jul 12th 2008 9:25am by RodStorm
Edited, Jul 12th 2008 9:26am by RodStorm
I also thought the same about the gloves I mentioned, again less dps but more stats.
The problem I have is dps.
Our raid leader is a fire mage to and he always tops the dps charts everytime without fail so theres a lot of expectation from us other mages to do well as well.
I usually sit around 6th on a good day so to lose any dps to gain stam. and int. would be beneficial as a dead mage cant cast but to lose to much dps would send me down the list a bit more.
And I'am already being told I need to do more dps so to lose anymore may jeapordise my spot in the raid group.
To be honest its starting to take some enjoyment out of the game as I'am always watching the dps meters but with what I have, flasks,food and oils theres not much more dps I can see possible.
Thats why I was unsure if its wise to look and stam. and int. now for progression, i didnt know if dps was a priority.
Also while I think of it now that I'am spell hit capped apart from spell damage what should I be looking at next, haste?
It takes an age to cast even with the talent points helping so I thought maybe haste would be good to build on.
Maybe I'am looking at all this the wrong way I'am not sure.
I was always told dps first, stats second.
And thanks guys for the help you've been a huge helping along the way with all this so I really do appreciate it.
ps..Ok now I'am really confused, according to maxdps I should be looking at Cape of Arcane Artricity over what I have even though it appears to have less dps and the same for Runed Spell Cuffs.
The main difference I can see is the haste rating, my gear doesnt have any but the other 2 do even though the stam, int and dps appearts to be less.
How does haste effect your dps rating?
I thought it was for increasing the cast time in spells, so therefore the quicker you cast the more dps you do with less dps compared to current items I have?
Also maxdps suggests +12 spell hit gems most of the time, if I replace my yellow ones then I lose my spell hit cap.
So this isnt as important as I first thought?
Edited, Jul 12th 2008 9:25am by RodStorm
Edited, Jul 12th 2008 9:26am by RodStorm
RodStorm wrote:
Also maxdps suggests +12 spell hit gems most of the time, if I replace my yellow ones then I lose my spell hit cap.
So this isnt as important as I first thought?
So this isnt as important as I first thought?
I'm assuming you mean damage. And you pretty much have to ignore that part of MaxDPS.com. It doesn't function properly on hit all the time, you have to take that into account yourself. Right now all it knows is that you're at or above the hit cap so don't need hit rating, so it ignores it.
RodStorm wrote:
Also while I think of it now that I'am spell hit capped apart from spell damage what should I be looking at next, haste?
It takes an age to cast even with the talent points helping so I thought maybe haste would be good to build on.
Maybe I'am looking at all this the wrong way I'am not sure.
I was always told dps first, stats second.
And thanks guys for the help you've been a huge helping along the way with all this so I really do appreciate it.
ps..Ok now I'am really confused, according to maxdps I should be looking at Cape of Arcane Artricity over what I have even though it appears to have less dps and the same for Runed Spell Cuffs.
The main difference I can see is the haste rating, my gear doesnt have any but the other 2 do even though the stam, int and dps appearts to be less.
How does haste effect your dps rating?
I thought it was for increasing the cast time in spells, so therefore the quicker you cast the more dps you do with less dps compared to current items I have?
It takes an age to cast even with the talent points helping so I thought maybe haste would be good to build on.
Maybe I'am looking at all this the wrong way I'am not sure.
I was always told dps first, stats second.
And thanks guys for the help you've been a huge helping along the way with all this so I really do appreciate it.
ps..Ok now I'am really confused, according to maxdps I should be looking at Cape of Arcane Artricity over what I have even though it appears to have less dps and the same for Runed Spell Cuffs.
The main difference I can see is the haste rating, my gear doesnt have any but the other 2 do even though the stam, int and dps appearts to be less.
How does haste effect your dps rating?
I thought it was for increasing the cast time in spells, so therefore the quicker you cast the more dps you do with less dps compared to current items I have?
Haste makes you cast faster. Point for point, haste is better for increasing DPS than spell damage is at a T5ish gear level and beyond. It's a huge thing for us mages.
Another question, you say your spells take ages to cast. Are you using Quartz and hitting the cast before the other one appears to finish? And what's your latency? These could have far ranging ramifications for your DPS. Also, you're at a point where you may want to consider a 2/48/11 build. There's a fairly significant increase in DPS for you if you manage your cooldowns well.
2/48/11...is there an example of that somewhere I can lookup?
I probaly dont take to long to cast it just seems that way, no longer than our other fire mages anyway but I have seen some frosties cast quicker than myself.
And yes I do have quartz.
But if I respec again to the above numbers I will be delving into the frost side of things and losing some of the arcane atributes I thought I needed as per the sticky from this forum I built my current form on.
I'll check that talent combo out anyway once I know where to look as anymore dps without losing stats is appreciated.
Your right about maxdps though, it must think you have an infinite amount of spellhit and are well and truely above the cap for the sacrifices it assumes you can make.
I need to balance it with spell damage so I dont lose my cap.
So now I concentrate on haste over other attributes like spell crit?
Is there a haste cap and is there a number I should build towards?
I'am thinking same dps but if I cast more of it my dps on the chart will increase.
Thinking smarter :)
Thanks for the help mate :)
Edited, Jul 12th 2008 4:50pm by RodStorm
I probaly dont take to long to cast it just seems that way, no longer than our other fire mages anyway but I have seen some frosties cast quicker than myself.
And yes I do have quartz.
But if I respec again to the above numbers I will be delving into the frost side of things and losing some of the arcane atributes I thought I needed as per the sticky from this forum I built my current form on.
I'll check that talent combo out anyway once I know where to look as anymore dps without losing stats is appreciated.
Your right about maxdps though, it must think you have an infinite amount of spellhit and are well and truely above the cap for the sacrifices it assumes you can make.
I need to balance it with spell damage so I dont lose my cap.
So now I concentrate on haste over other attributes like spell crit?
Is there a haste cap and is there a number I should build towards?
I'am thinking same dps but if I cast more of it my dps on the chart will increase.
Thinking smarter :)
Thanks for the help mate :)
Edited, Jul 12th 2008 4:50pm by RodStorm
RodStorm wrote:
2/48/11...is there an example of that somewhere I can lookup?
I probaly dont take to long to cast it just seems that way, no longer than our other fire mages anyway but I have seen some frosties cast quicker than myself.
And yes I do have quartz.
But if I respec again to the above numbers I will be delving into the frost side of things and losing some of the arcane atributes I thought I needed as per the sticky from this forum I built my current form on.
I'll check that talent combo out anyway once I know where to look as anymore dps without losing stats is appreciated.
Your right about maxdps though, it must think you have an infinite amount of spellhit and are well and truely above the cap for the sacrifices it assumes you can make.
I need to balance it with spell damage so I dont lose my cap.
So now I concentrate on haste over other attributes like spell crit?
Is there a haste cap and is there a number I should build towards?
I'am thinking same dps but if I cast more of it my dps on the chart will increase.
Thinking smarter :)
Thanks for the help mate :)
Edited, Jul 12th 2008 4:50pm by RodStorm
I probaly dont take to long to cast it just seems that way, no longer than our other fire mages anyway but I have seen some frosties cast quicker than myself.
And yes I do have quartz.
But if I respec again to the above numbers I will be delving into the frost side of things and losing some of the arcane atributes I thought I needed as per the sticky from this forum I built my current form on.
I'll check that talent combo out anyway once I know where to look as anymore dps without losing stats is appreciated.
Your right about maxdps though, it must think you have an infinite amount of spellhit and are well and truely above the cap for the sacrifices it assumes you can make.
I need to balance it with spell damage so I dont lose my cap.
So now I concentrate on haste over other attributes like spell crit?
Is there a haste cap and is there a number I should build towards?
I'am thinking same dps but if I cast more of it my dps on the chart will increase.
Thinking smarter :)
Thanks for the help mate :)
Edited, Jul 12th 2008 4:50pm by RodStorm
The sticky has been updated to reflect the 2/48/11 build, or you can look me up on the Armory(Poldaran on Dalaran) or by clicking my signature image. The frost build can be moved around to suit, just have to have Icy Veins and Elemental Precision, the rest is really up to you. Same goes with that one point in Impact, which can go anywhere you want.
RodStorm wrote:
2/48/11...is there an example of that somewhere I can lookup?
I probaly dont take to long to cast it just seems that way, no longer than our other fire mages anyway but I have seen some frosties cast quicker than myself.
And yes I do have quartz.
But if I respec again to the above numbers I will be delving into the frost side of things and losing some of the arcane atributes I thought I needed as per the sticky from this forum I built my current form on.
I'll check that talent combo out anyway once I know where to look as anymore dps without losing stats is appreciated.
Your right about maxdps though, it must think you have an infinite amount of spellhit and are well and truely above the cap for the sacrifices it assumes you can make.
I need to balance it with spell damage so I dont lose my cap.
So now I concentrate on haste over other attributes like spell crit?
Is there a haste cap and is there a number I should build towards?
I'am thinking same dps but if I cast more of it my dps on the chart will increase.
Thinking smarter :)
Thanks for the help mate :)
Edited, Jul 12th 2008 4:50pm by RodStorm
I probaly dont take to long to cast it just seems that way, no longer than our other fire mages anyway but I have seen some frosties cast quicker than myself.
And yes I do have quartz.
But if I respec again to the above numbers I will be delving into the frost side of things and losing some of the arcane atributes I thought I needed as per the sticky from this forum I built my current form on.
I'll check that talent combo out anyway once I know where to look as anymore dps without losing stats is appreciated.
Your right about maxdps though, it must think you have an infinite amount of spellhit and are well and truely above the cap for the sacrifices it assumes you can make.
I need to balance it with spell damage so I dont lose my cap.
So now I concentrate on haste over other attributes like spell crit?
Is there a haste cap and is there a number I should build towards?
I'am thinking same dps but if I cast more of it my dps on the chart will increase.
Thinking smarter :)
Thanks for the help mate :)
Edited, Jul 12th 2008 4:50pm by RodStorm
The only haste cap that you can hit is if you can get your casts below 1 second (which is where the global cooldown can be decreased to). this would require an insane amount of haste, even with bloodlust and drums I get to around 2 second fireball casts. With the runeshield from Reliquary of Souls I can get around 1.38 second fireball casts.
Is MaxDps.com of any good for mages anyway? For example for spriests it is rubbish (according to the smart theorycraft guys at shadowpriest.com).
Hey Poldaran, I checked out your talents and the only querey I have is the 5 points in improved frostbolt.
Do you really use it or is it just there to get you to icey veins?
It just seems a waste of 5 talent points in fire spec but again the extra cast speed seems worth it.
I had icey veins in my frost spec as I fully spec'd the frost tree back then and I have seen frosty's cast faster than me.
I'd say though judging by what you and others have said its something I'am going to have to respec to.
I looked up Reliquary of Souls as well as I've never heard of it, couldnt find it on wowhead or thottbot so not sure what it is and what it does.
I also noticed with your gear some has less dps than what I do but you have a stack more haste.
So going back to my original theory less dps for more times you can cast it equals more overall dps correct?
When I went from partial arcane/frost to fully frost I noticed the opposite, more cast time than arcane but a stack more dps as well in full frost.
So as fire a little the oppsite, a little less dps casted a lot more often.
A lot of mages in my guild think haste is over rated and makes minimal difference, some difference yes, but not at the expense of spell damage/hit/crit.
So at what point should I see a difference number wise with haste if I start to focus on it a lot more after re-talenting?
I'll try your spec out and see how I go, thanks for the help mate :)
Edited, Jul 13th 2008 3:46am by RodStorm
Do you really use it or is it just there to get you to icey veins?
It just seems a waste of 5 talent points in fire spec but again the extra cast speed seems worth it.
I had icey veins in my frost spec as I fully spec'd the frost tree back then and I have seen frosty's cast faster than me.
I'd say though judging by what you and others have said its something I'am going to have to respec to.
I looked up Reliquary of Souls as well as I've never heard of it, couldnt find it on wowhead or thottbot so not sure what it is and what it does.
I also noticed with your gear some has less dps than what I do but you have a stack more haste.
So going back to my original theory less dps for more times you can cast it equals more overall dps correct?
When I went from partial arcane/frost to fully frost I noticed the opposite, more cast time than arcane but a stack more dps as well in full frost.
So as fire a little the oppsite, a little less dps casted a lot more often.
A lot of mages in my guild think haste is over rated and makes minimal difference, some difference yes, but not at the expense of spell damage/hit/crit.
So at what point should I see a difference number wise with haste if I start to focus on it a lot more after re-talenting?
I'll try your spec out and see how I go, thanks for the help mate :)
Edited, Jul 13th 2008 3:46am by RodStorm
RodStorm wrote:
Hey Poldaran, I checked out your talents and the only querey I have is the 5 points in improved frostbolt.
Do you really use it or is it just there to get you to icey veins?
It just seems a waste of 5 talent points in fire spec but again the extra cast speed seems worth it.
I had icey veins in my frost spec as I fully spec'd the frost tree back then and I have seen frosty's cast faster than me.
I'd say though judging by what you and others have said its something I'am going to have to respec to.
I looked up Reliquary of Souls as well as I've never heard of it, couldnt find it on wowhead or thottbot so not sure what it is and what it does.
I also noticed with your gear some has less dps than what I do but you have a stack more haste.
So going back to my original theory less dps for more times you can cast it equals more overall dps correct?
When I went from partial arcane/frost to fully frost I noticed the opposite, more cast time than arcane but a stack more dps as well in full frost.
So as fire a little the oppsite, a little less dps casted a lot more often.
A lot of mages in my guild think haste is over rated and makes minimal difference, some difference yes, but not at the expense of spell damage/hit/crit.
So at what point should I see a difference number wise with haste if I start to focus on it a lot more after re-talenting?
I'll try your spec out and see how I go, thanks for the help mate :)
Edited, Jul 13th 2008 3:46am by RodStorm
Do you really use it or is it just there to get you to icey veins?
It just seems a waste of 5 talent points in fire spec but again the extra cast speed seems worth it.
I had icey veins in my frost spec as I fully spec'd the frost tree back then and I have seen frosty's cast faster than me.
I'd say though judging by what you and others have said its something I'am going to have to respec to.
I looked up Reliquary of Souls as well as I've never heard of it, couldnt find it on wowhead or thottbot so not sure what it is and what it does.
I also noticed with your gear some has less dps than what I do but you have a stack more haste.
So going back to my original theory less dps for more times you can cast it equals more overall dps correct?
When I went from partial arcane/frost to fully frost I noticed the opposite, more cast time than arcane but a stack more dps as well in full frost.
So as fire a little the oppsite, a little less dps casted a lot more often.
A lot of mages in my guild think haste is over rated and makes minimal difference, some difference yes, but not at the expense of spell damage/hit/crit.
So at what point should I see a difference number wise with haste if I start to focus on it a lot more after re-talenting?
I'll try your spec out and see how I go, thanks for the help mate :)
Edited, Jul 13th 2008 3:46am by RodStorm
As Pold stated... the 5pts in imp frostbolt are there for filler points, all that matters is 3 in elemental precision and 1 in icy veins.
Reliquary of Souls is a boss in Black Temple
Quote:
I also noticed with your gear some has less dps than what I do but you have a stack more haste.
So going back to my original theory less dps for more times you can cast it equals more overall dps correct?
When I went from partial arcane/frost to fully frost I noticed the opposite, more cast time than arcane but a stack more dps as well in full frost.
So as fire a little the oppsite, a little less dps casted a lot more often.
So going back to my original theory less dps for more times you can cast it equals more overall dps correct?
When I went from partial arcane/frost to fully frost I noticed the opposite, more cast time than arcane but a stack more dps as well in full frost.
So as fire a little the oppsite, a little less dps casted a lot more often.
I have no idea what you said there.
Haste is not overrated. Have them go to the www.elitistjerks.com forums and read up on the mage guides, they have done the math and once you get around 1100 damage haste is approximately = to 1.04spelldmg (I believe). When you are playing at this level you should already be above 30% crit so you don't need to continue stacking that and if you are not hit capped you fail anyway.
RodStorm wrote:
A lot of mages in my guild think haste is over rated and makes minimal difference, some difference yes, but not at the expense of spell damage/hit/crit.
So at what point should I see a difference number wise with haste if I start to focus on it a lot more after re-talenting?
So at what point should I see a difference number wise with haste if I start to focus on it a lot more after re-talenting?
At the point of gear you're at, Hit(til capped) > Haste > Dmg > Crit. As long as you're gaining more haste than you're losing Dmg, you can't really go wrong.
Thanks guys its making a lot more sense.
Anobix what I was trying to say is this:
By adding more haste I can cast more spells.
By casting more my dps will increase because theres more of it.
I dont have to have an outlandish amount of dps to do well in the dps meters, I can keep what I have and just cast it more by improving haste so I cast more and increase my dps outage.
I think my current spell damage is around 1150 but my crit is only at around 22% for fire not at 30% like Anobix said it should be so I should still look at building that after haste?
When I was more arcane than frost when I first started my mage I did a lot of burst dps very quickly.(not to mention a huge mana drain)
Then I changed to full frost spec I noticed my cast time had increased moreso than with the arcane mixed in but I was doing way more dps.
So in turn more cast time but greater dps as full frost mage spec.
Thats how it was for me, not saying for everyone else.
Then when I went to fire I noticed a difference again, I did a little less dps but my cast time was quicker.
Now thanks to your help, Pold's help and everyone elses input I have tweaked it considerably over the last few monthes to the point I'am tryin to get even more out of what I can do.
Thats what this post was for, more help for more dps without losing stats.
Whether that be gear wise or talents wise.
I just noticed with some of Pold's gear it didnt have the dps that some of mine does but he has a lot more haste to compensate for it to the point he gets more out of what he has than I do out of mine.
So....my point again and I may have this wrong is I may have to cut down on some of my dps to allow more haste either through gear, gems etc.because what I have currently haste wise is extremely poor.
I did manage to get my hands on the Bracers of Nimble Thought today but havent equiped them yet.
The haste rating is good on them and according to maxdps.com they are the second best bracers in the game for me.
+15 spell damage comes to mind for the enchant on them but I will see what else I can find for them, nothing else I think though.
And as I said above, the more I cast the more my dps will be....someone with more haste can do more damage than someone without much that has more spell damage.
Sorry if that doesnt make sense mate, I know what I mean its just a little awkward getting it out but I'am trying.
Also a point made by Amaiya, is maxdps.com a good source to look at for what I need for dps?
As someone said before it doesnt allow for the hit cap just pure dps so do I take its advice and add a little common sense as well?
And going back to my original posting about gear, dps isnt the soul thing I should be looking at when equipping items.
As long as I keep my hit cap up I'll look for haste over dps and then the rest will follow.(without losing to much dps like Pold said)
Thanks guys, awesome help to help me become a better player.
Edited, Jul 13th 2008 1:52pm by RodStorm
Edited, Jul 13th 2008 2:05pm by RodStorm
Anobix what I was trying to say is this:
By adding more haste I can cast more spells.
By casting more my dps will increase because theres more of it.
I dont have to have an outlandish amount of dps to do well in the dps meters, I can keep what I have and just cast it more by improving haste so I cast more and increase my dps outage.
I think my current spell damage is around 1150 but my crit is only at around 22% for fire not at 30% like Anobix said it should be so I should still look at building that after haste?
When I was more arcane than frost when I first started my mage I did a lot of burst dps very quickly.(not to mention a huge mana drain)
Then I changed to full frost spec I noticed my cast time had increased moreso than with the arcane mixed in but I was doing way more dps.
So in turn more cast time but greater dps as full frost mage spec.
Thats how it was for me, not saying for everyone else.
Then when I went to fire I noticed a difference again, I did a little less dps but my cast time was quicker.
Now thanks to your help, Pold's help and everyone elses input I have tweaked it considerably over the last few monthes to the point I'am tryin to get even more out of what I can do.
Thats what this post was for, more help for more dps without losing stats.
Whether that be gear wise or talents wise.
I just noticed with some of Pold's gear it didnt have the dps that some of mine does but he has a lot more haste to compensate for it to the point he gets more out of what he has than I do out of mine.
So....my point again and I may have this wrong is I may have to cut down on some of my dps to allow more haste either through gear, gems etc.because what I have currently haste wise is extremely poor.
I did manage to get my hands on the Bracers of Nimble Thought today but havent equiped them yet.
The haste rating is good on them and according to maxdps.com they are the second best bracers in the game for me.
+15 spell damage comes to mind for the enchant on them but I will see what else I can find for them, nothing else I think though.
And as I said above, the more I cast the more my dps will be....someone with more haste can do more damage than someone without much that has more spell damage.
Sorry if that doesnt make sense mate, I know what I mean its just a little awkward getting it out but I'am trying.
Also a point made by Amaiya, is maxdps.com a good source to look at for what I need for dps?
As someone said before it doesnt allow for the hit cap just pure dps so do I take its advice and add a little common sense as well?
And going back to my original posting about gear, dps isnt the soul thing I should be looking at when equipping items.
As long as I keep my hit cap up I'll look for haste over dps and then the rest will follow.(without losing to much dps like Pold said)
Thanks guys, awesome help to help me become a better player.
Edited, Jul 13th 2008 1:52pm by RodStorm
Edited, Jul 13th 2008 2:05pm by RodStorm
Check out Rawr for even better theorycrafting and an easy to use interface with a ton of options.
I think the problem why I was not understanding you is that you are mixing the term dps with spelldmg they are not the same.
The way I look at it, if I have a chest that has 50 spelldmg and 0 haste but find a chest that has 40spelldmg and 20 haste, it would be an upgrade as it would approximately = 60dmg. (ignoring other stats).
As for your crit chance, that should easily hit ~30%+ with your fire talents, not the standard crit chance for all spells that you have, mouse over it and you will see.
I think the problem why I was not understanding you is that you are mixing the term dps with spelldmg they are not the same.
The way I look at it, if I have a chest that has 50 spelldmg and 0 haste but find a chest that has 40spelldmg and 20 haste, it would be an upgrade as it would approximately = 60dmg. (ignoring other stats).
As for your crit chance, that should easily hit ~30%+ with your fire talents, not the standard crit chance for all spells that you have, mouse over it and you will see.
Thanks Anobix, I did mouse over my fire crit and it is 22.76% so a bit short of the 30% you mentioned.
I've always concentrated on spell damage and spell hit so my crit has suffered even with the talents I have in fire.
Now I'am a bit confused to, spell damage is part of dps isnt it?
The more spell damage the more dps I can do correct?
Maybe I've been looking at that wrongly to.
I'am going to checkout your stats to in WoW Armoury to give myself a better understanding of where I should be heading like I did with Pold's.
But on your signature you are under the hit cap so is that to compensate for haste and crit and other attributes?
Or its just not updated?
I will look at Rawr as I have never heard of it but will follow up on it.
Thanks again mate :)
I've always concentrated on spell damage and spell hit so my crit has suffered even with the talents I have in fire.
Now I'am a bit confused to, spell damage is part of dps isnt it?
The more spell damage the more dps I can do correct?
Maybe I've been looking at that wrongly to.
I'am going to checkout your stats to in WoW Armoury to give myself a better understanding of where I should be heading like I did with Pold's.
But on your signature you are under the hit cap so is that to compensate for haste and crit and other attributes?
Or its just not updated?
I will look at Rawr as I have never heard of it but will follow up on it.
Thanks again mate :)
RodStorm wrote:
Thanks Anobix, I did mouse over my fire crit and it is 22.76% so a bit short of the 30% you mentioned.
I've always concentrated on spell damage and spell hit so my crit has suffered even with the talents I have in fire.
Now I'am a bit confused to, spell damage is part of dps isnt it?
The more spell damage the more dps I can do correct?
Maybe I've been looking at that wrongly to.
I'am going to checkout your stats to in WoW Armoury to give myself a better understanding of where I should be heading like I did with Pold's.
But on your signature you are under the hit cap so is that to compensate for haste and crit and other attributes?
Or its just not updated?
I will look at Rawr as I have never heard of it but will follow up on it.
Thanks again mate :)
I've always concentrated on spell damage and spell hit so my crit has suffered even with the talents I have in fire.
Now I'am a bit confused to, spell damage is part of dps isnt it?
The more spell damage the more dps I can do correct?
Maybe I've been looking at that wrongly to.
I'am going to checkout your stats to in WoW Armoury to give myself a better understanding of where I should be heading like I did with Pold's.
But on your signature you are under the hit cap so is that to compensate for haste and crit and other attributes?
Or its just not updated?
I will look at Rawr as I have never heard of it but will follow up on it.
Thanks again mate :)
your amount of spelldmg does not = your amount of dps. I have 1100 (approx) fire damage and can put out well above 1100 dps.
The signature application here sucks, it doesn't correctly count gems, enchants, and other things (if you had the +14 spellhit from the helm enchant I am at 164). I am also currently specced for arenas on the armory.
I went back and checked out your armory, sure enough you have about 22% unbuffed fire crit, and 25% self-buffed.
No prob mate, I checked out your armoury and your stats are different for sure.
So how does spell damage work with dps?
I can do a 5k fireball at best un-flasked, the more spell damage the higher that number?
My current haste is at 71, what is the number i'am aiming for?
I can do a 2.9sec. fireball and 2.4 sec with icey veins.
How much haste do I need though, I notice Pold has a lot of yellow haste gems.
I'am looking at replacing some of my yellow gems of spell hit with haste, I may go under the cap slightly but when I change some gear around shortly it will be capped again.
Is my crit to low, I noticed you have a lot more but like you said your arena spec atm so not sure if I need more.
For now haste and staying hit capped are main priorities.
Thanks again for the help.
Edited, Jul 14th 2008 5:12am by RodStorm
So how does spell damage work with dps?
I can do a 5k fireball at best un-flasked, the more spell damage the higher that number?
My current haste is at 71, what is the number i'am aiming for?
I can do a 2.9sec. fireball and 2.4 sec with icey veins.
How much haste do I need though, I notice Pold has a lot of yellow haste gems.
I'am looking at replacing some of my yellow gems of spell hit with haste, I may go under the cap slightly but when I change some gear around shortly it will be capped again.
Is my crit to low, I noticed you have a lot more but like you said your arena spec atm so not sure if I need more.
For now haste and staying hit capped are main priorities.
Thanks again for the help.
Edited, Jul 14th 2008 5:12am by RodStorm
Scholar
29 posts
lo there
I would like to add something.
Is this the facts then:
1 . +hit cap is 164 and this does that u rarely does resist's on the boss's.
2. Dps is the fully amount of u damage of a spellcast on a mob/boss. The calculated amount of u +hit,+haste,+crit,+spelldmg = dps
3. If u got +164 hit fokus on +crit and if that is on 30% unbuffed then go for +haste and there is no cap for that. It could be nice to have a +haste like the dot u can spellsteal from flamcaster in ZA thow :)
4. But as Rod said +hit>+haste>+crit>dmg.
But anyway when u in future choice gear look at stam too for in sunwell u will need it a dead mages does zero dps :)
Trold
Edited, Jul 14th 2008 4:17am by Troldeerind
I would like to add something.
Is this the facts then:
1 . +hit cap is 164 and this does that u rarely does resist's on the boss's.
2. Dps is the fully amount of u damage of a spellcast on a mob/boss. The calculated amount of u +hit,+haste,+crit,+spelldmg = dps
3. If u got +164 hit fokus on +crit and if that is on 30% unbuffed then go for +haste and there is no cap for that. It could be nice to have a +haste like the dot u can spellsteal from flamcaster in ZA thow :)
4. But as Rod said +hit>+haste>+crit>dmg.
But anyway when u in future choice gear look at stam too for in sunwell u will need it a dead mages does zero dps :)
Trold
Edited, Jul 14th 2008 4:17am by Troldeerind
Thanks Trold for the feedback, your right I still need more stam. but once I get out of the Spellfire set I have remaining that will pick up.
Anobix man I'am stuck again, I had a look through Rawr and did some comparison stats and upgrade suggestions and it virtually rated everything different to dps.com.
The gems were very similar but the armour itself was way different.
For instance I was looking at the Tormented Demonsoul Robes over the Shroud of the Lore'nial but Rawr had the Shroud stacked considerably higher then what dps.com did.
I could use the yellow socket for haste and still keep my hit cap well and truely with the Shroud and maybe replace a yellow gem somewhere else with another haste one and still be up on hit cap.
Or go Demonsoul, still use a yellow haste gem, gain more crit but go slightly under the hit cap.
But the 2 sites have different stat. numbers so not sure which way to lean.
I guess it comes down to whats best for what I want in a sensible way that will work best for what I have.
I've lost 4 rolls so far the Hellfire Encased Pendant but I'am determined to get it eventually and other items like that are obvious no brainers but ones like above I mention make my head hurt :)
Anobix man I'am stuck again, I had a look through Rawr and did some comparison stats and upgrade suggestions and it virtually rated everything different to dps.com.
The gems were very similar but the armour itself was way different.
For instance I was looking at the Tormented Demonsoul Robes over the Shroud of the Lore'nial but Rawr had the Shroud stacked considerably higher then what dps.com did.
I could use the yellow socket for haste and still keep my hit cap well and truely with the Shroud and maybe replace a yellow gem somewhere else with another haste one and still be up on hit cap.
Or go Demonsoul, still use a yellow haste gem, gain more crit but go slightly under the hit cap.
But the 2 sites have different stat. numbers so not sure which way to lean.
I guess it comes down to whats best for what I want in a sensible way that will work best for what I have.
I've lost 4 rolls so far the Hellfire Encased Pendant but I'am determined to get it eventually and other items like that are obvious no brainers but ones like above I mention make my head hurt :)
A few suggestions which may or may not be correct (I'm sure another friendly mage can put things right if I'm leading you astray)...
A couple of gear things I'd look at upgrading:
1. Helm - Cowl from VR or the one that never drops from Hexlord in ZA (for my guild, maybe yours is luckier).
2. Neck - Guardians Pendant of Subjugation, I'm currently working on this for my mage (I hate pvp) and it is really nice at that gear level.
Also make sure you have some higher stamina pieces that you can switch in for fights when you need a bit more survivability. You could wear your higher dps items for fights where it's not an issue, but when you need a minimum of 8.5k for a fight (Naj'entus) and more will help the raid it's better to make some sacrifices than be the person dying all the time. If you can get badge loot/pvp gear for this purpose then your damage won't take as much of a knock as if you have to equipt your violet badge for example.
Finally consider other factors which may affect dps. Cast rotations and time spent casting (as opposed to running around), cooldowns.
*equips tinfoil hat*
1. Do you use a scorch rotation for your fire mages? If not your CL could be feeding off the rest of you and just spamming fireballs.
2. Do you use webstats or is this your CL posting from his own damage meter?
3. How are the groups set up, sometimes we organise groups so that the people who benefit the most (i.e. those that do better damage) get the nice groups with the boomkin/ele shaman and/or SP. If your CL has an optimised group and your stuck with the MM hunter, holy priests and the spare resto druid it might explain the disparity.
4. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
If you have any webstats from raids it might help to post them up here to give more of an idea of the relative numbers that people are putting out. I'm frost spec and tend to float around the top 3 damage done on boss fights with 1.1-1.3k dps depending on the encounter. So that's quite good for my guild, but may be mediocre for others. Assuming Rank 2 is your CL rank he does seem to me to be a bit higher geared than you (particularly in terms of haste) which might explain his better performance.
Edit: On TC tools
Maxdps doesn't take fight length into account, so it will favour stats which enable more burst-type damage (i.e. haste) while placing lower ratings on those which are to do with longevity (i.e. spirit).
Rawr lets you set the fight length (I believe - I can't get it working) and so will rate gear on it's ability to help you last through a fight of that length. An oom mage does little dps and so stats which help you dps at a lower level, but for the duration of the fight can also be useful.
Edited, Jul 14th 2008 8:08am by Tynuv
A couple of gear things I'd look at upgrading:
1. Helm - Cowl from VR or the one that never drops from Hexlord in ZA (for my guild, maybe yours is luckier).
2. Neck - Guardians Pendant of Subjugation, I'm currently working on this for my mage (I hate pvp) and it is really nice at that gear level.
Also make sure you have some higher stamina pieces that you can switch in for fights when you need a bit more survivability. You could wear your higher dps items for fights where it's not an issue, but when you need a minimum of 8.5k for a fight (Naj'entus) and more will help the raid it's better to make some sacrifices than be the person dying all the time. If you can get badge loot/pvp gear for this purpose then your damage won't take as much of a knock as if you have to equipt your violet badge for example.
Finally consider other factors which may affect dps. Cast rotations and time spent casting (as opposed to running around), cooldowns.
*equips tinfoil hat*
Quote:
Our raid leader is a fire mage to and he always tops the dps charts everytime without fail so theres a lot of expectation from us other mages to do well as well.
And I'am already being told I need to do more dps so to lose anymore may jeapordise my spot in the raid group.
And I'am already being told I need to do more dps so to lose anymore may jeapordise my spot in the raid group.
1. Do you use a scorch rotation for your fire mages? If not your CL could be feeding off the rest of you and just spamming fireballs.
2. Do you use webstats or is this your CL posting from his own damage meter?
3. How are the groups set up, sometimes we organise groups so that the people who benefit the most (i.e. those that do better damage) get the nice groups with the boomkin/ele shaman and/or SP. If your CL has an optimised group and your stuck with the MM hunter, holy priests and the spare resto druid it might explain the disparity.
4. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
If you have any webstats from raids it might help to post them up here to give more of an idea of the relative numbers that people are putting out. I'm frost spec and tend to float around the top 3 damage done on boss fights with 1.1-1.3k dps depending on the encounter. So that's quite good for my guild, but may be mediocre for others. Assuming Rank 2 is your CL rank he does seem to me to be a bit higher geared than you (particularly in terms of haste) which might explain his better performance.
Edit: On TC tools
Maxdps doesn't take fight length into account, so it will favour stats which enable more burst-type damage (i.e. haste) while placing lower ratings on those which are to do with longevity (i.e. spirit).
Rawr lets you set the fight length (I believe - I can't get it working) and so will rate gear on it's ability to help you last through a fight of that length. An oom mage does little dps and so stats which help you dps at a lower level, but for the duration of the fight can also be useful.
Edited, Jul 14th 2008 8:08am by Tynuv
Thanks Tynuv, no we dont have any real mage rotation just a rotation on what AoE we use and thats only a personal preference not a raid leader decision.
I'am looking at my haste level now and trying to increase it without jeapordising my spell hit cap.
I've brought 2 items, the Bracers of Nimble Thought and Fetish of the Primal Gods to help with the haste issue and I even got the trinket from the last boss in H SP to help out as well.
Groups are setup for certain bosses but usually by class so all casters in one, tanks in another etc except in something like Lurker in SSC where its defined a bit more.
I'am just not really enjoying my stay in MH, to busy watching the dps meter and not really enjoying what I'am doing.
Maybe need a change of people around where what we do is more important than who did better than who.
I'am going to look at gear with a higher amount of spell hit and change some of my spell hit gems to haste ones, I dont lose anything only gain.
I got my fireball to 2.8 seconds and 2.4 with icey veins but would like it down to under 1.8 seconds so thats my goal.
Thanks again fortaking an interest, appreciate it :)
I'am looking at my haste level now and trying to increase it without jeapordising my spell hit cap.
I've brought 2 items, the Bracers of Nimble Thought and Fetish of the Primal Gods to help with the haste issue and I even got the trinket from the last boss in H SP to help out as well.
Groups are setup for certain bosses but usually by class so all casters in one, tanks in another etc except in something like Lurker in SSC where its defined a bit more.
I'am just not really enjoying my stay in MH, to busy watching the dps meter and not really enjoying what I'am doing.
Maybe need a change of people around where what we do is more important than who did better than who.
I'am going to look at gear with a higher amount of spell hit and change some of my spell hit gems to haste ones, I dont lose anything only gain.
I got my fireball to 2.8 seconds and 2.4 with icey veins but would like it down to under 1.8 seconds so thats my goal.
Thanks again fortaking an interest, appreciate it :)
Hey guys, still having a bit of confusion over the haste issue.
My raid leader, a fire mage as well, is convinced crit over haste any day above or below 30%.
Our other mages agree saying haste is over rated.
However I dont agree and have tried to increase what I have.
Our raid leader has roughly 100 more haste than me but a lesser cast time of only .2 of a second.
I can do a standard cast in 2.8 sec, with trinkets and icey veins I can get it down to 2 sec.
He sits on 2.6 sec per cast.
So for the extra 100 points of juggling things around for only .2 of a second difference is it really worth it?
I'am going to trade the spellfire robe and gloves I have for the demonsoul ones but was going to use yellow haste gems, maybe now I need to look at crit instead?
I think my crit is around the 24 or 25% by itself so not quite at the 30% mark but the demonsoul gear will help it.
I just have to watch I dont lose my spell hit cap in the process.
But the haste argument is one I'am losing and like I mentioned for only .2 difference for an extra 100 haste I dont know anymore.
I have around 88 haste and was told to be a minimum of 150 to be beneficial but at 180 my raid leader isnt that much better of.
Thanks for any advice on this guys.
My raid leader, a fire mage as well, is convinced crit over haste any day above or below 30%.
Our other mages agree saying haste is over rated.
However I dont agree and have tried to increase what I have.
Our raid leader has roughly 100 more haste than me but a lesser cast time of only .2 of a second.
I can do a standard cast in 2.8 sec, with trinkets and icey veins I can get it down to 2 sec.
He sits on 2.6 sec per cast.
So for the extra 100 points of juggling things around for only .2 of a second difference is it really worth it?
I'am going to trade the spellfire robe and gloves I have for the demonsoul ones but was going to use yellow haste gems, maybe now I need to look at crit instead?
I think my crit is around the 24 or 25% by itself so not quite at the 30% mark but the demonsoul gear will help it.
I just have to watch I dont lose my spell hit cap in the process.
But the haste argument is one I'am losing and like I mentioned for only .2 difference for an extra 100 haste I dont know anymore.
I have around 88 haste and was told to be a minimum of 150 to be beneficial but at 180 my raid leader isnt that much better of.
Thanks for any advice on this guys.
RodStorm wrote:
So for the extra 100 points of juggling things around for only .2 of a second difference is it really worth it?
Yes.
RodStorm wrote:
I'am going to trade the spellfire robe and gloves I have for the demonsoul ones but was going to use yellow haste gems, maybe now I need to look at crit instead?
Gemming for crit is bad. If you do not wish to gem for haste and gemming for hit isn't an option(because you're capped), then gem for +dmg.
RodStorm wrote:
I have around 88 haste and was told to be a minimum of 150 to be beneficial but at 180 my raid leader isnt that much better of.
.2 seconds off of the cast is MUCH larger than you think.
Hey Poldaran thanks for the reply mate.
0.2 less cast time really makes that much difference?
And I'am not sure what you meant by gemming for crit. is bad.
Gemming, apart from drops, is the really the only way I can raise any stat. so why isnt gemming for crit. a good thing?
I'd still rather go down the haste path but I need that 30% crit, maybe with the new robes and gloves I'll be close.
Rawr doesnt help me on that one, just overall or dps.
I have some crit. gear now that I dont use because it will effect my spell hit cap and I want to preserve that as best as possible but again feedback from other mages is anything over 150 is acceptable for spell hit whilst not capped.
We cleared some Sunwell junk the other night and I have to admit I'am in awe of some of you guys that have cleared bosses and seen further content in there.
Our raid group is still at boss 4 in MH so we are no way geared to tackle that part of the game yet.
The new problem is the same group of 10 are doing timed ZA runs to become beter geared for MH to progress to BT then Sunwell.
We will have 10 very good geared guys, the other 15 of us in the raid group have to look at alternatives to gearing as for some reason we cant seem to get 2 groups going.
Anyway thats a seperate issue, I'll get my crit. to 30%, keep my spell hit cap and then look at the haste issue.
I know after 30% crit. haste is next, I dont think prior to that I should be looking at it???
0.2 less cast time really makes that much difference?
And I'am not sure what you meant by gemming for crit. is bad.
Gemming, apart from drops, is the really the only way I can raise any stat. so why isnt gemming for crit. a good thing?
I'd still rather go down the haste path but I need that 30% crit, maybe with the new robes and gloves I'll be close.
Rawr doesnt help me on that one, just overall or dps.
I have some crit. gear now that I dont use because it will effect my spell hit cap and I want to preserve that as best as possible but again feedback from other mages is anything over 150 is acceptable for spell hit whilst not capped.
We cleared some Sunwell junk the other night and I have to admit I'am in awe of some of you guys that have cleared bosses and seen further content in there.
Our raid group is still at boss 4 in MH so we are no way geared to tackle that part of the game yet.
The new problem is the same group of 10 are doing timed ZA runs to become beter geared for MH to progress to BT then Sunwell.
We will have 10 very good geared guys, the other 15 of us in the raid group have to look at alternatives to gearing as for some reason we cant seem to get 2 groups going.
Anyway thats a seperate issue, I'll get my crit. to 30%, keep my spell hit cap and then look at the haste issue.
I know after 30% crit. haste is next, I dont think prior to that I should be looking at it???
Prior to haste try to get your fire damage about around 1100, 30% crit, and hit capped. Then go for Haste/dmg.
When you replace the gloves/chest you should be sitting right around 30ish % buffed (maybe 31%) so that should work out well for you.
Just work on getting rid of that head piece, try to get into some ZA pugs, and get the helm off of Hex Lord that will last you a good while, or wait til you get Archimonde down and spend your /roll or /dkp or whatever you guys do to get the helm.
The reason gemming for crit is bad is because the points spent leveling that up can be better spent on +dmg or +haste, if you can't get the 30% from gear though I guess you could do a bit of gemming, but it takes I believe 22crit to be 1% so it takes a LOT to do it.
150+ is okay for T4 raiding with hit, but when you are in T5+ you should be at hit cap at all times.
Edited, Jul 20th 2008 11:05am by Anobix
When you replace the gloves/chest you should be sitting right around 30ish % buffed (maybe 31%) so that should work out well for you.
Just work on getting rid of that head piece, try to get into some ZA pugs, and get the helm off of Hex Lord that will last you a good while, or wait til you get Archimonde down and spend your /roll or /dkp or whatever you guys do to get the helm.
The reason gemming for crit is bad is because the points spent leveling that up can be better spent on +dmg or +haste, if you can't get the 30% from gear though I guess you could do a bit of gemming, but it takes I believe 22crit to be 1% so it takes a LOT to do it.
150+ is okay for T4 raiding with hit, but when you are in T5+ you should be at hit cap at all times.
Edited, Jul 20th 2008 11:05am by Anobix
Hey Anobix, buffed I'am around 28% crit. so not to far away.
At this point I would kill for the hood in ZA and I'am trying my best to get a second team in there.
As its only a 10 man instance we would roll for it, in the 25 man's we use the Karma system and still cant seem to get the 4th boss down in MH.
Close at 17% but still not close enough.
The Demonsoul robe will help crit. wise as will the Demon badges gloves so that will get me to 30% hopefully.
I came second in the dps in MH last night so the changes I'am making are working and the advice you guys give me IS working :)
Your right about the gems, I have to come up with an armour option I'll keep for awhile so I can gem according around it.
Rawr has been a good help as well but I'am still not convinced it uses the right gems for the individual but apart from that it seems to work better than maxdps.
The spell hit cap is around 161 correct?
Thanks guys :)
Edited, Jul 20th 2008 10:44pm by RodStorm
At this point I would kill for the hood in ZA and I'am trying my best to get a second team in there.
As its only a 10 man instance we would roll for it, in the 25 man's we use the Karma system and still cant seem to get the 4th boss down in MH.
Close at 17% but still not close enough.
The Demonsoul robe will help crit. wise as will the Demon badges gloves so that will get me to 30% hopefully.
I came second in the dps in MH last night so the changes I'am making are working and the advice you guys give me IS working :)
Your right about the gems, I have to come up with an armour option I'll keep for awhile so I can gem according around it.
Rawr has been a good help as well but I'am still not convinced it uses the right gems for the individual but apart from that it seems to work better than maxdps.
The spell hit cap is around 161 correct?
Thanks guys :)
Edited, Jul 20th 2008 10:44pm by RodStorm
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