Numbers and hit/crit/expertise (and the likes)Follow

Right, so I'm spending my night looking for even more rogue information, and a solid crystal clear example as to why hit rating > everything else.

And I just can't find it. The closest I've got is Theo's tutorial about "hit rating, expertise and you". But what makes me wondering there, is; where do the numbers come from? "28% chance on a miss". Why? How do you know?

Anybody has a link or... basically anything?

Technically, Expertise > Hit Rating > Everything.

Thats kinda like asking how we know that gravity causes a falling object to accelerate at 9.8 m/s^2.

People have tested it numerous times and proven it true.

The problem is likely its been taken for granted for so long the original tests are probably lost to history.

Might wanna try WoWwiki to find the formulas for things and just do some theoretical, or practical testing for yourself.

I'm astounded that people still cannot figure out that +hit is a priority in raiding. People don't spend time theorycrafting for no reason.

That is exactly what I am trying to figure out, or at least find crystal clear proof for. I'm looking for an example of (for example) 2 rogues in equal gear with totally different specs with one rogue doing simply hellalot more damage than the other one.




That sounds very true. But turning it around I might as well type "A higher crit rating ensures a lot of your hits on the big scary monsters deal double damage, so it may be important to crit rating up".

For a long time I've thought "Yes, hit rating ensures I miss less attacks. But I don't care about white attacks since most of my damage comes from abilities... If I do 3 white attacks which miss and one ability which hits, I'm in the end better off".

eh, adding 10% crit is gonna add 10% to your white damage and (some) yellow damage. adding 10% haste is gonna add 10% to your white damage only. adding 10% hit is gonna add 10% to your white damage only. snd is an ability and has no place in your list. therefore, it really is counter-intuitive that hit would be more valuable than crit (besides the obvious fact that it's cheaper stat-wise)

so although you're correct about hit being so important, you obviously have no idea why exactly it is so or are incapable of communicating why it is so.

i looked at the ej rogue theorycrafting thread... it's 8 months old and has 3100 replies... so i googled it. right there on the results page was this gem:



so there you go. faster offhands with lots of +hit and haste get you more energy for abilities through increased combat potency procs.

Edited, Jul 12th 2008 4:33pm by axhed

whatever are you talking about?

Couple of the other reasons hit rating is so sought after:

1) Adding 1% hit in reality adds more than 1% to your white damage (which is anywhere from 60-70%) of your damage. How, you say? Say you have your base 23% miss rate against a level 73 boss (I'm assuming you have precision, which every raiding rogue does have). Now add 1% hit to that and you have have 22% miss rate. Let's invert the numbers now. Previsouly you has 77% hit, not you have 78% hit. Divide 78 by 77 you get 1.012987. You actually added about 1.3% damage to your white damage. Now look at crit. Crit basically boils down to a flat increase in total damage. If you have 4/5 Lethality and 20% crit (a nice starting amount going into Kara) you basically do 124% as much damage as somebody who has 0% crit. Now add 1% crit to your total and divide 121 by 120 (accounting for lethality it's actually 125.2/124) and you add 1.00967% damage to your overall damage. Yes, the crit added more damage, but my second point is going to show you why hit is better.

2) At level 70, it requires 15.76 hit rating (HR) to add 1% hit and 22.08 critical strike rating (CR) to add 1% crit. Let's look at our % damage increases from above. The 1% hit added 1.3% increase in damage to 60% of your total damage (we're using this for argument's sake, for some people it will be higher, some it will be lower, thought not much lower). This means 1% hit adds .78% overall damage. Divind that .78 damage increase by the 15.76 HR and you get .04949% damage per point of hit rating. Now divide the 1.013% damage increase from 1% crit rating by the 22.08 crit rating for 1% and you get .04587% damage increase per point of crit rating.

1 HR = .04949% damage increase (from 0 hit rating to enough hit rating for 1%)
1 CR = .04587% damage increase (from 20% crit to 21% crit)

Also, as the % get higher these numbers will actually go down because the % increases will get smaller and smaller. However, since the hit% will never get over 100% it will always have larger % increases than the crit rating.

Some people will argue that if you go from 0% crit to 1% crit it's a larger % increase than going from 0% hit to 1% hit, however due to the fact that it is impossible to find a rogue with 0 agility, you will never find a rogue with 0% crit. Not to mention almost all rogue gear has agi on it which further increases crit% and 20% crit is a decent place to start. A 70 rogue in all level 70 greens "of the Bandit" that rogue will be close to 20% crit from base agi, agi on gear, and 5% crit from Malice talent, which EVERY rogue spec includes.

Edit: Just remembered Lethality only affects crit damage on special attacks, not all attacks. This means hit rating pulls even further away.

Edited, Jul 12th 2008 4:46pm by Bigdaddyjug

Any sub build that will have enough crit/AP to do similar damage to another rogue with a combat swords build would do even MORE damage as combat swords.

Combat swords has a main attack (Sinister Strike) that has an energy cost making it fit perfectly into a combat cycle. Precision is over a 5% boost to total damage. Sword Spec is over a 5% boost to total damage. Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry allow for 1 or 2 periods of extreme burst per boss fight in which you can pop your trinkets, haste potions, drums and Bloodlust/Heroism to maximize that burst even more.

Combat swords also has Combat Potency which, when you have enough hit, returns a considerable amount of energy to help keep up combat cycles.

Edited, Jul 12th 2008 4:52pm by Bigdaddyjug

Thomas, you have no idea what the @#%^ you're talking about. Sit down and shut the @#%^ up.

Mozared, to answer your question, the reason that we say this stuff is because most of the top rogues in the world run WWS (a parser app) every raid. They figure out what hit rating is required to negate miss, they figure out what moving one point does to DPS.

They actually just recently figured out that they were even undervaluing Sword Spec procs.

Sword Spec is simply the highest DPS build because it contains the most DPS-oriented talents, that's it. The rest of the info and testing comes from WWS, mainly.

I'd like to suggest that the rogues who don't know as much about the game calm the @#%^ down. It's cool that you guy want to be like me, but post in a more helpful manner. The forum only needs one me.

Edit: and no, it's not possible to crit all your attacks and never miss with 0 hit rating. It's something like a one in a billion chance for the to happen over an entire raid.

Edited, Jul 12th 2008 2:54pm by Theophany

Hey, I was being helpful and not flaming.

I even brought fancy math to the party, and I even think it's fairly accurate.

I know how you feel. When I started researching the mechanics I found that WowWiki's page on Hit and other pages, along with The Elitist Jerks Spreadsheet was full of calculations I could deconstruct and tear apart.

Nearly all of the assumptive numbers and formula derived from WWS reports by many, many theorycrafters have been directly or indirectly confirmed by moderators on the Official Forums and are considered to be as accurate as we can get without actually decompiling the game programs.

I also did basic comparative informal tests when getting a new weapon which also showed me DPS improvement with Hit compared to AP or Critical Rating of equal itemization value. Usually just killing 50 mobs of the same type (Oh how I love warp burgers and spicy hot talbuk!).

In the end, Blizzard will not give us the exact formula the game uses and thus our entire gearing strategy is based on assumptive logic. Thing is.... well, it's proven to be pretty damn accurate. ;)

Happy hunting.