having looked at the new items from Alpha till now, it seems that Mages are not going to be getting too many new things.
The talents so far lack punch for the fire and frost trees. The whole Mage theme of fiddling with the arcane, fire and frost is kept but also seem to contain the Mages from going down the whacky lines of Priest and Warlocks changing forms (assuming warlocks do get a demon form in deep demonology). When they gave frost a water elemental, we scoffed at it but embraced its power as we played.
the Mage class's lack of freshness is beginning to wear me thin. I do concede that the elemental trees are strong, its just that the whole deep spec and you are not playing any different since version 1.11 . I sometimes feel that the class's potential has been fleshed out and has peaked. Of course that would hint that the class is more complete than say Shamans or Paladins who are in need of some more tuning.
most of the mages posting here have been playing their mages for a long time, I love melting stuff from afar while cackling away. The current situation and what looks like is over the horizon does not really satisfy me. What are your thought regarding this?
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Has the Mage class peaked too soon?Follow
The new arcane tree is looking pretty good. Not an arcane database here so not sure of its full effects.
Fire and frost 51 talent points look awful. A stun for PvP, love the idea, but a 1.5 second cast AND frozen? so we would have to stun, then throw off a shatter combo and the stun is over. Maybe im jumping to conclusions but id rather see even a 3 second insta cast stun with a longer cool down than that.
But living bomb looks just retarded. A great PvE fire dps boost talent would make the class a lot more fun. I hate the idea of warlocks out DPSing mages by being superior mages with a sacrifice and just spamming shadowbolts. If they out dps us with some dots and shadow bolts and a pet I wouldn't rant. I just would like to see class functions remain the same and I would be happier.
So in comparison to other new talents I see have do mages see a bit left behind? I think so. But its all speculation, hard to really make a judgment before you try it.
Edited, Jul 11th 2008 1:15am by Zisikpus
Fire and frost 51 talent points look awful. A stun for PvP, love the idea, but a 1.5 second cast AND frozen? so we would have to stun, then throw off a shatter combo and the stun is over. Maybe im jumping to conclusions but id rather see even a 3 second insta cast stun with a longer cool down than that.
But living bomb looks just retarded. A great PvE fire dps boost talent would make the class a lot more fun. I hate the idea of warlocks out DPSing mages by being superior mages with a sacrifice and just spamming shadowbolts. If they out dps us with some dots and shadow bolts and a pet I wouldn't rant. I just would like to see class functions remain the same and I would be happier.
So in comparison to other new talents I see have do mages see a bit left behind? I think so. But its all speculation, hard to really make a judgment before you try it.
Edited, Jul 11th 2008 1:15am by Zisikpus
Zisikpus wrote:
The new arcane tree is looking pretty good. Not an arcane database here so not sure of its full effects.
Fire and frost 51 talent points look awful. A stun for PvP, love the idea, but a 1.5 second cast AND frozen? so we would have to stun, then throw off a shatter combo and the stun is over. Maybe im jumping to conclusions but id rather see even a 3 second insta cast stun with a longer cool down than that.
Fire and frost 51 talent points look awful. A stun for PvP, love the idea, but a 1.5 second cast AND frozen? so we would have to stun, then throw off a shatter combo and the stun is over. Maybe im jumping to conclusions but id rather see even a 3 second insta cast stun with a longer cool down than that.
It actually looks a lot better when you consider the Winter's Grasp talent.
Quote:
Gives your Frost damage spells a 10% chance to apply the Winter's Grasp effect, which increases the chance all attacks will hit the target by 2% and the target is considered Frozen for 5 sec.
Zisikpus wrote:
But living bomb looks just retarded.
I'm of two minds on Living Bomb. On the one hand, I'm disappointed with it a bit. I wanted something more fun.
On the other, I think it has the potential to be a powerful addition to the fire mage's AoE toolkit. Consider the top rank of the spell:
Quote:
The caster becomes a living bomb, causing 130 Fire damage to all enemies within 10 yards every 2 sec sec. After 6 sec, a fiery explosion occurs causing an additional 520 Fire damage to all enemies within 10 yards.
Totaling 910 damage compared to the 538 to 582 that Arcane Explosion will do at its max rank for the same global cooldown. Depending on how it scales and how it is affected by World in Flames, it could potentially be an exceedingly powerful AoE. Only blastwave does more and it's on a long cooldown.
Zisikpus wrote:
A great PvE fire dps boost talent would make the class a lot more fun. I hate the idea of warlocks out DPSing mages by being superior mages with a sacrifice and just spamming shadowbolts. If they out dps us with some dots and shadow bolts and a pet I wouldn't rant. I just would like to see class functions remain the same and I would be happier.
I agree that warlocks beating us by spamming shadowbolts is kinda lame, especially considering the utility their damage brings to the rest of the raid(especially to shadowpriests). But we are indeed getting some powerful increases to our DPS. Burnout specifically will have far reaching DPS consequences, IMO. Whether it's going to be enough to overcome how others are getting buffed, well, I dunno. But it will be a nice powerful DPS increase.
Zisikpus wrote:
The new arcane tree is looking pretty good. Not an arcane database here so not sure of its full effects.
The arcane tree really is the star at this point. Arcane Barrage, Student of the Mind/Potent Spirit, 6 yd increased range...all excellent talents. And don't even get me started on Netherwind Presence. We've seen huge changes to the arcane tree so far in TBC, and it looks like it's only getting better in WotLK.
cancerous wrote:
having looked at the new items from Alpha till now, it seems that Mages are not going to be getting too many new things.
It feels, incomplete, to me. Seems like there are spells that haven't been announced.
We got what, 5 new spells from level 62-70? And all I can see now is Frostfire Bolt and Shatter Shield(mind you, Shatter Shield seems awesome). I think there's more to come. And I'm hoping it'll be something cool.
Edited, Jul 11th 2008 12:00am by Poldaran
Not enough new spells is one thing.
the other thing that is really bugging me is the complete disregard of synergy and utility that is on show here. If our critical hits create a form of expose weakness (something hunters and rogues have) the damage potential of casters who do have a shadow school would increasse.
there is no playstyle form that has evolved for fire and frost. Frost at least gotten some new ways to do things in BC. Fire has just remained where it was. Arcane got expanded upon but its a all dps build which is fun but at the same time also lacking. I would have been really happy if flamestrike was reworked (which would have been a really big thing for me at least)
the other thing that is really bugging me is the complete disregard of synergy and utility that is on show here. If our critical hits create a form of expose weakness (something hunters and rogues have) the damage potential of casters who do have a shadow school would increasse.
there is no playstyle form that has evolved for fire and frost. Frost at least gotten some new ways to do things in BC. Fire has just remained where it was. Arcane got expanded upon but its a all dps build which is fun but at the same time also lacking. I would have been really happy if flamestrike was reworked (which would have been a really big thing for me at least)
cancerous wrote:
I would have been really happy if flamestrike was reworked (which would have been a really big thing for me at least)
Out of curiosity, how would you like to see flamestrike re-worked?
Quote:
Out of curiosity, how would you like to see flamestrike re-worked?
Pol, I'm a frost build, so I don't use it, but I literally don't have it on my tool-bar. When I say I never use it - I mean never. I don't think I've used it since... I can't remember.
Out of my curiosity - how do you use it? What's its functionality???
Functionality would be in PvE only for AE pulls. Especially around the time you have the spellfire set your arcane/fire damage will exceed frost making flamestrike a bit better than blizzard. Now I would not recommend spamming it, but 1 cast to get the AE going then following up with blizzards or BW/DB/AE could be useful.
Again, that would be the functionality, I rarely do it=P
Again, that would be the functionality, I rarely do it=P
Borsuk wrote:
Out of my curiosity - how do you use it? What's its functionality???
I use it to open up my AE rotation, as the cast time allows my pally to build at least a modicum of threat before I go all Blastwave, Dragon's Breath, Arcane Explosion crazy.
So -
It's really only useful vs Blizzard when you are wearing gear that only gives you +Fire damage and you are deep fire spec'd.
I mean - even the deepest fire raid specs don't pick up Imp. Flamestrike. (Thus - you don't really get any great bonus using it over Bliz unless your gear, like spellfire, is tuned to only +fire and not necessarily +spell damage.)
If that is it - I still don't see it making it's way onto my tool-bar. Bummer.
It's really only useful vs Blizzard when you are wearing gear that only gives you +Fire damage and you are deep fire spec'd.
I mean - even the deepest fire raid specs don't pick up Imp. Flamestrike. (Thus - you don't really get any great bonus using it over Bliz unless your gear, like spellfire, is tuned to only +fire and not necessarily +spell damage.)
If that is it - I still don't see it making it's way onto my tool-bar. Bummer.
What troubles me is that blizzard seems to feel that they can satisfy the desire for talent enhancements by making changes in one tree without comparable benefits in the others. In other words, if blizzard enhances the arcane tree I should be happy to stop speccing fire.
I am used to having to play a spec that I find less enjoyable because of a game need. For example if raiding at a certain level requires a certain spec or precludes one and I want to raid I'll respec. But I think that it is different that the notion that mages, who IMO have been getting the short end of talent development for some time, now may find that their primary benefits will be in a single tree.
It sort of like being told "its fires turn to be the worst of three weak trees".
<sigh> - Ok a future "King of AoE is done venting now.
I am used to having to play a spec that I find less enjoyable because of a game need. For example if raiding at a certain level requires a certain spec or precludes one and I want to raid I'll respec. But I think that it is different that the notion that mages, who IMO have been getting the short end of talent development for some time, now may find that their primary benefits will be in a single tree.
It sort of like being told "its fires turn to be the worst of three weak trees".
<sigh> - Ok a future "King of AoE is done venting now.
I don't read too much into alpha talent/spell/items that have been leaked so far... simply because most of these will not even make it to beta, and what DOES make it to beta will usually be reworked anyhow.
Blizzard isn't that useful because it takes so long to cast and can be interrupted because it is channelled. I would recommend casting it (I do it in Hyjal initially) then go in and do my DB/BW/AE spamming). Blizzard gives fairly low DPS even if you are frost specced.
Grandfather Barkingturtle wrote:
Borsuk wrote:
Out of my curiosity - how do you use it? What's its functionality???
I use it to open up my AE rotation, as the cast time allows my pally to build at least a modicum of threat before I go all Blastwave, Dragon's Breath, Arcane Explosion crazy.
That's the biggest part of it for me too. And the ground effect DoT can't be ignored for the extra damage it does.
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
cancerous wrote:
I would have been really happy if flamestrike was reworked (which would have been a really big thing for me at least)
Out of curiosity, how would you like to see flamestrike re-worked?
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
cancerous wrote:
I would have been really happy if flamestrike was reworked (which would have been a really big thing for me at least)
Out of curiosity, how would you like to see flamestrike re-worked?
been out last night so did not get to see this till now.... I will elaborate on this a little.
We have now seen the spriest channeled AoE on a target that explodes for damage on things around it. We have seen Seed of Corruption do things we wished we were half capable of doing.
So the thing is why is flamestrike (I liked to call it lamestrike), such a unusable spell? I use it at Hyjal after the paladin tanks gets the mobs in a tight bunch. I also use it a couple of times for the murlocs at Morogrim. there should be other add rushes that I can use it for. The thing is with the cast being 3s the mana you spend for the spell, the whole I need to wish enough mobs were alive at that position for me to hit when I actually casting thing annoys me.
there are lots of variations other people have as their pipe dream Flamestrike. I would like a targetable 2.0s cast (increase the mana cost, or slap a 4s cooldown on it), which does bases damage to the mob and spreads the rest of the coefficient onto the targets in 6yd range. The mobs would get a small dot and the spell will not be able to kick off ignite. Its a good enough spell but will not get blown over in proportion since ignite if off the table.
Mage's red headed stepchild version of Seed of no damage cap aoe.
cancerous wrote:
Mage's red headed stepchild version of Seed of no damage cap aoe.
Actually, I'm wondering if that's what Living Bomb is meant to be. It may have a much higher than average or non-existent damage cap.
cancerous wrote:
So the thing is why is flamestrike (I liked to call it lamestrike), such a unusable spell?
It's one of my favorite AoEs, personally. I use it everywhere I AoE unless a DB/BW combo is enough to do the job alone.
cancerous wrote:
there are lots of variations other people have as their pipe dream Flamestrike. I would like a targetable 2.0s cast (increase the mana cost, or slap a 4s cooldown on it), which does bases damage to the mob and spreads the rest of the coefficient onto the targets in 6yd range. The mobs would get a small dot and the spell will not be able to kick off ignite. Its a good enough spell but will not get blown over in proportion since ignite if off the table.
Honestly, the only part of that I like is the 2s cast with 4s cooldown portion. That on the current version of Flamestrike would be awesome, since you cast it for the ground effect damage more than as a spammed spell.
I spam Flamestrike if I am on Morogrimm's add duty. Other than that, not really.
so - it sorta sounds like it is useful in 2 end game instances?
That's it?
Do locks, rogues, wars, priests, etc. have a spell/ability/talent that can only be effectively used in extremely end game content - and even then only under specific circumstances...
That's why I don't like flamestrike...
That's it?
Do locks, rogues, wars, priests, etc. have a spell/ability/talent that can only be effectively used in extremely end game content - and even then only under specific circumstances...
That's why I don't like flamestrike...
Borsuk wrote:
so - it sorta sounds like it is useful in 2 end game instances?
That's it?
Do locks, rogues, wars, priests, etc. have a spell/ability/talent that can only be effectively used in extremely end game content - and even then only under specific circumstances...
That's why I don't like flamestrike...
That's it?
Do locks, rogues, wars, priests, etc. have a spell/ability/talent that can only be effectively used in extremely end game content - and even then only under specific circumstances...
That's why I don't like flamestrike...
warlock searing pain:
for tanking illidan and leotheras...
Borsuk wrote:
so - it sorta sounds like it is useful in 2 end game instances?
That's it?
That's it?
Let me reiterate.
Quote:
It's one of my favorite AoEs, personally. I use it everywhere I AoE unless a DB/BW combo is enough to do the job alone.
Everywhere. 5 mans. Kara. ZA. Rank 1 in AVs when I'm helping cap a tower. After I've rooted the 6-7 BEs I pull in netherstorm while doing the Sunfury plans daily.
Everywhere.
lets just say I share some of Poldy's sentiments. I would cast flamestrike at times when I feel I can get it off. I would like use it at Illhoof when I was on AoE duty. The lock who get assigned to spam SoC do better anyway so I just do a couple of AEs and call it a day. as fun an idea the spell was, its mechanics could do with some tuning. I even resort to PoMing it just to make sure it kicks in.
Come one - you get to turn into a bomb (exploding gnomes ftw), I might spec fire for that.
I'm a bit deflated that frost seems to be edging even further into the pvp spec, I'm just not sure it will remain viable for raiding. Possibly the Winter's Grasp might help but a) bosses may be immune, b) if the increase to hit only lasts 2 secs that sucks and c) people should be hitcapped anyway.
At the moment I'm thinking of fire for the fun aoes or maybe arcane because I've never tried an arcane spec. Possibly I might go warlock spec though, 60 and counting :P
I'm a bit deflated that frost seems to be edging even further into the pvp spec, I'm just not sure it will remain viable for raiding. Possibly the Winter's Grasp might help but a) bosses may be immune, b) if the increase to hit only lasts 2 secs that sucks and c) people should be hitcapped anyway.
At the moment I'm thinking of fire for the fun aoes or maybe arcane because I've never tried an arcane spec. Possibly I might go warlock spec though, 60 and counting :P
the problem is this: currently we do not have a spammable fire aoe spell. flamestrike is crap for spamming, because you overwrite the dot component when you recast, which means a lot of damage is simply lost. dragon's breath and blast wave are ok, but they are on long cooldowns AND they lose some damage to the secondary effect they have (disorient and slow).
fire mages currently do the bulk of their aoe damage with an arcane spell. that's just wrong, because all our fire enhancing talents are wasted (+damage, +crit, mana return). this needs to be fixed.
considering raid utility and survivability, mages should be doing more damage than warlocks, both in aoe and single target. why?
warlocks have much more hp so they live longer AND they give soulstones, healthstones, curses, imp sb debuff, crowd control (situational), imp buff for tanks, tanking ability (with searing pain = double aggro) and they even do their aoe damage from a distance with seed. more damage and easier to heal? why bring a mage?
all mages give is int (useless in sunwell) and admittedly the best CC in the game, although also situational.
mage synergy is ****, in a word. winter's chill only works for other frost mages (lol), scorch for other fire mages and maybe fire locks. maybe because shadow destro is overall probably still better (minimal dps difference, but shadowpriest synergy).
i really hope they do something good with the talent revamps. although i'm pretty sure blizzard is aware of some of the shortcomings and will address them.
fire mages currently do the bulk of their aoe damage with an arcane spell. that's just wrong, because all our fire enhancing talents are wasted (+damage, +crit, mana return). this needs to be fixed.
considering raid utility and survivability, mages should be doing more damage than warlocks, both in aoe and single target. why?
warlocks have much more hp so they live longer AND they give soulstones, healthstones, curses, imp sb debuff, crowd control (situational), imp buff for tanks, tanking ability (with searing pain = double aggro) and they even do their aoe damage from a distance with seed. more damage and easier to heal? why bring a mage?
all mages give is int (useless in sunwell) and admittedly the best CC in the game, although also situational.
mage synergy is ****, in a word. winter's chill only works for other frost mages (lol), scorch for other fire mages and maybe fire locks. maybe because shadow destro is overall probably still better (minimal dps difference, but shadowpriest synergy).
i really hope they do something good with the talent revamps. although i'm pretty sure blizzard is aware of some of the shortcomings and will address them.
some internal syngery to increase dps and add spells into our rotations would be better imo. A better AoE yes, like that too but I will live with what I have.
If we were given another spell that consumes ignite and does something else. Its not as useable as lava burst would be but it would be good step. If only arcane and nature had a little synergy....
If we were given another spell that consumes ignite and does something else. Its not as useable as lava burst would be but it would be good step. If only arcane and nature had a little synergy....
cancerous wrote:
some internal syngery to increase dps and add spells into our rotations would be better imo. A better AoE yes, like that too but I will live with what I have.
If we were given another spell that consumes ignite and does something else. Its not as useable as lava burst would be but it would be good step. If only arcane and nature had a little synergy....
If we were given another spell that consumes ignite and does something else. Its not as useable as lava burst would be but it would be good step. If only arcane and nature had a little synergy....
I think we'll be getting something more from Moonkins for Arcane. Personally, I wouldn't mind more synergy between fire and Nature, because as Avatar has taught us, Lightning and Fire are two aspects of the same whole.
Yes, I just referenced a show on Nickelodeon.
Scholar
46 posts
Also, now locks don't have to put up CoE for mages only as CoE and CoS have been merged, so there is a little warlock love for the raid as well. Some synergy there, esp if you're putting up imp scorch stack for the locks to immolate off of (immolate is even useful for dps increase for affliction locks).
the CoE change just allows the raid to reduce the number of curses needed. One warlock spare that used to throw up CoE can now throw up CoA.
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