Warning: This is all WOTLK talents, I realize they might completly throw the whole trees around, but as it stands now I just like to plan ahead/discuss. If you're one of the types to go "Oh it'll prolly get changed anyway" you might as well stop reading here.
I've got a bit in a spec problem and I'm hoping for one of you to come with a brilliant solution...
From the Alpha talent trees;
Divine Aegis (Rank 3/3) - Critical heals create a protective shield on the target, absorbing 30% of the amount healed. Lasts 12 seconds.
Inspiration (Rank 3/3) - Increases your target's armor by 25% for 15 seconds after getting a critical effect from your Flash Heal, Heal, Greater Heal, Binding Heal, Penance, Prayer of Healing, or Circle of Healing spell.
At the moment (level 66) my Power Word: Shield absorbs about 1300 damage and my heals crit for about 4000. 30% of 4000 = 1200, which pretty much means Divine Aegis gives a free Power Word: Shield on critical heals. On the other hand my critical heals also give +25% armor which would get wasted in anything but raids (seeing as the shield lasts 12 sec and the armor 15, and assuming armor doesn't migate damage done to the shield).
The spec that I've got on my mind at the moment puts 44 points in Discipline, picking up Divine Aegis, Pain Supression and 5/5 Enlightenment as the top Discipline talents. I've got 27 points in holy, picking up 3/3 inspiration but having 0/5 points in Spiritual Guidance and only 2/5 in Spiritual healing.
The problem I'm stuck with is: should I pick Divine Aegis (and Pain Supression & Enlightenment) in combination with 3/3 Inspiration? I think I've got 3 options at the moment;
1) If people give me a very good reason why Inspiration > Divine Aegis, I'll leave DA, Pain Supression and Englightenment out and spend those 9 points in holy, picking up 5/5 spiritual healing, 3/3 holy concentration and 3/5 Divine Guidance.
Result.
2) Somebody can convince me that inspiration and DA work well together... I'll leave the spec as it is.
Result.
3) A solid argument is given as to why DA > Inspiration. In that case I'll leave the discipline tree as it is and move the 3 points from Inspiration to Spiritual Guidance.
Result.
So, which do you reckon I should do with? Or... any comments on this thought at all?
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Divine Aegis and Inspiration/WOTLK spec problemFollow
I can tell you that incoming damage is fully calculated, i.e. reduced by armor, partial resists, talents, etc., before it is absorbed.
It is? That's new for me... I've always thought shield had a higher priority than inner fire if it got hit away while solo'ing.
I suppose that answers my question and helps out a lot globally.
I suppose that answers my question and helps out a lot globally.
You are correct that you will not lose Inner Fire charges from getting hit by melee strikes that are completely absorbed. You still get the armor benefit of Inner Fire when shielded.
Quote:
You are correct that you will not lose Inner Fire charges from getting hit by melee strikes that are completely absorbed. You still get the armor benefit of Inner Fire when shielded.
I knew that first bit... that second was new tho... And very helpful to know.
I wonder though, whether Grace might be a more useful damage reduction talent than Divine Aegis. Doesn't say how long Grace lasts though.
Not looked too much at the new talent trees. Interesting that the new higher level discipline talents are mostly related to healing. Then you get Penance which is a damage or heal spell, but as only as a heal are there other talents that work directly with it (rapture, grace, inspiration). I wish rapture had been a holy talent.
Not looked too much at the new talent trees. Interesting that the new higher level discipline talents are mostly related to healing. Then you get Penance which is a damage or heal spell, but as only as a heal are there other talents that work directly with it (rapture, grace, inspiration). I wish rapture had been a holy talent.
They work well together. Most raid bosses will punch right through a shield, which means Inspiration is still extremely useful, but DA essentially gives you a 30% increase to crit heals without being subject to overhealing.
With that said, going that deep into Discipline and not picking up Grace is just silly. It's a flat 3% damage reduction to the tank and 3% healing increase; why in the world would you not snag that?
If Penance turns out to be worth picking up, I'd probably try something like this. If it's not, then this.
For reference, the best general healing build is probably something like this.
With that said, going that deep into Discipline and not picking up Grace is just silly. It's a flat 3% damage reduction to the tank and 3% healing increase; why in the world would you not snag that?
If Penance turns out to be worth picking up, I'd probably try something like this. If it's not, then this.
For reference, the best general healing build is probably something like this.
Well I'd love Grace, punt I simply lack the points. What do you suggest I do, take out the only small +healing bonus that spiritual healing gives me and a point in holy reach?
The thing is it's more of a hybrid spec. It's not optimized for arena or raids, but instead brought to a level where it's fairly ok on both fronts. There isn't much challenge in picking a pure arena or pure raiding spec, but that's not what I'm after. Which is one reason why I prefer Divine Aegis over Grace.
While I don't have much problems healing right now and can heal trough spike damage easy enough, I'm just worried that without any kind of +healing bonus from the holy tree I simply lack the healing power to get the tank trough bÃg spikes. I suppose it all depends on how long grace lasts, since +3% healing is nearly as good at +4% healing from spiritual healing. Not to mention the first can reach +9%.
Edit: =O You put lightwell in the 'general healing build'! Die heathen! =P On a more serious note, it doesn't seem that bad anymore... 0,5 sec cast, 40 yard range (Does that mean we can set a location to summon it at?), a target needs direct damage (definition of this please blizz?) and it's now got 10 charges... Interesting.
Edited, Jul 10th 2008 5:49pm by Mozared
The thing is it's more of a hybrid spec. It's not optimized for arena or raids, but instead brought to a level where it's fairly ok on both fronts. There isn't much challenge in picking a pure arena or pure raiding spec, but that's not what I'm after. Which is one reason why I prefer Divine Aegis over Grace.
While I don't have much problems healing right now and can heal trough spike damage easy enough, I'm just worried that without any kind of +healing bonus from the holy tree I simply lack the healing power to get the tank trough bÃg spikes. I suppose it all depends on how long grace lasts, since +3% healing is nearly as good at +4% healing from spiritual healing. Not to mention the first can reach +9%.
Edit: =O You put lightwell in the 'general healing build'! Die heathen! =P On a more serious note, it doesn't seem that bad anymore... 0,5 sec cast, 40 yard range (Does that mean we can set a location to summon it at?), a target needs direct damage (definition of this please blizz?) and it's now got 10 charges... Interesting.
Edited, Jul 10th 2008 5:49pm by Mozared
I don't know, discipline makes damage taken smaller, holy makes heals bigger. 1 point in Grace reduces damage taken by 1-3% and 1 point in spiritual healing makes heals 2% bigger, which is best would probably just depend on the situation. You could also increase the size of your heals with spiritual guidance, by taking points out of holy reach.
I'm not sure if I'll notice the effect of the 10%... Since I do notice the effect of extra range on party heal. If I'd take grace ánd drop the range increase I'd end up with 1 point in spiritual guidance. That just feels useless to me... isn't there anywhere else I could spend that point, where I to take up grace?
Edited, Jul 12th 2008 12:47am by Mozared
Edited, Jul 12th 2008 12:47am by Mozared
Quote:
Edit: =O You put lightwell in the 'general healing build'! Die heathen! =P On a more serious note, it doesn't seem that bad anymore... 0,5 sec cast, 40 yard range (Does that mean we can set a location to summon it at?), a target needs direct damage (definition of this please blizz?) and it's now got 10 charges... Interesting.
Edited, Jul 10th 2008 5:49pm by Mozared
Needs direct damage means "not a DoT/periodic damage", although I guess it could mean AoEs as well.
That's exactly what I was wondering about... Because it's the difference between making it useful or useless in raids.
Heck, why doesn't blizzard just remove the stupid effect. Only problem they'd have to solve is the main tank keeping up his own HOT.
Heck, why doesn't blizzard just remove the stupid effect. Only problem they'd have to solve is the main tank keeping up his own HOT.
The problem with deep Disc healing builds, in WotLK as now, is the lack of *mid* level healing talents. There are still at least four talent points you have to toss away to get to the high-end talents, and more you have to spend on talents of marginal utility. While I think the high-end Disc healing talents are stupendous (Grace and Rapture in particular, and Divine Aegis and Aspiration to a lesser extent), it's still hard to justify the build. This is particularly true when put next to spectacular talents like Improved Holy Concentration (wow!) or Serendipity and, generally speaking, the solidness of the entire Holy tree.
What they really need to do is move Divine Aegis down to where Aspiration is now, then shift Aspiration down to Power Infusion or below. Solves some problems, but not all.
Penance is still up in the air. One of the nice things about it is that each tick of it has a chance to crit, so each bolt can proc Divine Aegis and Inspiration. Additionally, early reporting is that each bolt is an independent Grace stack, so you can get right up the three stacks with a single cast. That's good.
What they really need to do is move Divine Aegis down to where Aspiration is now, then shift Aspiration down to Power Infusion or below. Solves some problems, but not all.
Penance is still up in the air. One of the nice things about it is that each tick of it has a chance to crit, so each bolt can proc Divine Aegis and Inspiration. Additionally, early reporting is that each bolt is an independent Grace stack, so you can get right up the three stacks with a single cast. That's good.
I don't know, from a PvE perspective both trees are looking very good at the moment. For a raid disc build I'd do something like this:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?priest=050323031305051210010053135123205003030000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
and for raid holy, something like this:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?priest=050320000300000000000000000023505003030215053005331351000000000000000000000000000
Either way I think there's a lot to be gained from taking one of each type of priest to a raid, especially with regard to tank healing.
I think they're trying to get around the whole mana issue in the disc tree with rapture, which if you think about it is utterly amazing, you heal a tank for 6k and you return 150 mana to your whole party. Probably works out as good as, if not better than improved holy concentration.
Edited, Jul 14th 2008 4:25am by thegreatmothra
Edited, Jul 14th 2008 10:56am by thegreatmothra
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?priest=050323031305051210010053135123205003030000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
and for raid holy, something like this:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?priest=050320000300000000000000000023505003030215053005331351000000000000000000000000000
Either way I think there's a lot to be gained from taking one of each type of priest to a raid, especially with regard to tank healing.
I think they're trying to get around the whole mana issue in the disc tree with rapture, which if you think about it is utterly amazing, you heal a tank for 6k and you return 150 mana to your whole party. Probably works out as good as, if not better than improved holy concentration.
Edited, Jul 14th 2008 4:25am by thegreatmothra
Edited, Jul 14th 2008 10:56am by thegreatmothra
The discipline tree looks solid, but for the holy tree why not
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?priest=050320001300000000000000000023405003030215053005331351000000000000000000000000000
?
It's not like Blessed Resilience is going to do you much good in raids.
On a sidenote, is anybody else noticing holy is becoming fairly arena-viable? Serenidipity allows a big heal trough a MS and Guardian Spirit basically is Pain Supression.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?priest=050320001300000000000000000023405003030215053005331351000000000000000000000000000
?
It's not like Blessed Resilience is going to do you much good in raids.
On a sidenote, is anybody else noticing holy is becoming fairly arena-viable? Serenidipity allows a big heal trough a MS and Guardian Spirit basically is Pain Supression.
You're entirely correct, I added those points by accident, now corrected, I actually redistributed those points differently as I'm not a big fan of inner focus as such (it just isn't worth giving up other stuff for).
Edited, Jul 14th 2008 10:59am by thegreatmothra
Edited, Jul 14th 2008 10:59am by thegreatmothra
I notice more and more people not picking inner focus lately. I still think it's a waste though. Just like holy nova (which you will always find a use for, even if it's just rank 1 spamming to get a rogue out of stealth), it's just one point! The moment you get 3 seconds of rest in an arena you pop it and throw your greater heal. It's free, out of the 5-second rule and has a good chance of critting as well.
Not picking up Inner Focus is mind-boggling to me. It's very nice to have.
Moza, I think you're reading Serendipity wrong. The intent of the talent is not to burn through Mortal Strike or whatnot; it's to reduce the mana losses from overhealing. The wording is key here. It says if it heals "less than 50% of its intended effect". There are two arguments to be made here. First, Mortal Strike, Aimed Shot, etc. cause your heal to work at *exactly* 50% power, not less than, so Serendipity would never work. Second, "intended" would seem to mean "after all calculations are done". That is, after taking into account all modifiers... positive, like from talents and gear, and negative, as from debuffs.
So Serendipity is not a PvP talent; it exists for PvE mana efficiency. You could make the argument that Test of Faith is a PvP talent, but frankly, deep Disc strikes me as a far superior build for that. Grace and Aspiration and even Divine Aegis are worthwhile for that purpose, or you just have extra points for the extra low-level PvP talents. Penance + Grace seems like a nice way to quickly reverse the slide of someone's health, if you're willing to accept the exposure to interrupts. And since it's channeled it'll follow people around pillars, yay.
Moza, I think you're reading Serendipity wrong. The intent of the talent is not to burn through Mortal Strike or whatnot; it's to reduce the mana losses from overhealing. The wording is key here. It says if it heals "less than 50% of its intended effect". There are two arguments to be made here. First, Mortal Strike, Aimed Shot, etc. cause your heal to work at *exactly* 50% power, not less than, so Serendipity would never work. Second, "intended" would seem to mean "after all calculations are done". That is, after taking into account all modifiers... positive, like from talents and gear, and negative, as from debuffs.
So Serendipity is not a PvP talent; it exists for PvE mana efficiency. You could make the argument that Test of Faith is a PvP talent, but frankly, deep Disc strikes me as a far superior build for that. Grace and Aspiration and even Divine Aegis are worthwhile for that purpose, or you just have extra points for the extra low-level PvP talents. Penance + Grace seems like a nice way to quickly reverse the slide of someone's health, if you're willing to accept the exposure to interrupts. And since it's channeled it'll follow people around pillars, yay.
Point taken. It didn't stuck my mind yet but it sounds incredibly lame... Serenidipity could be a pretty neat PvP talent if not for the idiotic 1%.
On the other hand... What if you heal for say 3333? You can't divide that by 2. Would your spell heal 1667 or 1666? Since 1666 would be slightly less than 50%. I suppose it either always has to work at 50% or not at all, since it'd be kind of lame if it depended on you healing odd or even numbers.
On the other hand... What if you heal for say 3333? You can't divide that by 2. Would your spell heal 1667 or 1666? Since 1666 would be slightly less than 50%. I suppose it either always has to work at 50% or not at all, since it'd be kind of lame if it depended on you healing odd or even numbers.
I think certainly in pvp there is a strong case for taking inner focus given that it has been degenerating into a mana war for some time now. In raid environments, I tend to rate it much less. The reason being that priest regen is already so good. If you look at it purely from a mana conservation point of view it works out at (1255/3)/12 = 34.8 mp5 assuming you use it on a max rank prayer of healing for best efficiency every single time it is up. That is assuming you don't have any points in healing prayers, and that prayer of healing is an appropriate heal at that time.
Given that most mid to high end pve priests these days have a minimum of 400mp5 while casting and say, 800 mp5 OO5SR it doesn't add up to much. If you consider the case where you use it on a max rank greater heal with 3/3 improved healing (a more usual situation) you get 19.47 mp5 assuming you use it every time it is up.
I know I know, you get an extra OO5SR tick also, but to be honest if you aren't getting any of those on a fight anyway through cancel casting or basic fight mechanics then something more serious is wrong than missing mp5 from inner focus.
I'm not say its without its uses, but for a lot of people, that one point can be spent more beneficially elsewhere these days.
Given that most mid to high end pve priests these days have a minimum of 400mp5 while casting and say, 800 mp5 OO5SR it doesn't add up to much. If you consider the case where you use it on a max rank greater heal with 3/3 improved healing (a more usual situation) you get 19.47 mp5 assuming you use it every time it is up.
I know I know, you get an extra OO5SR tick also, but to be honest if you aren't getting any of those on a fight anyway through cancel casting or basic fight mechanics then something more serious is wrong than missing mp5 from inner focus.
I'm not say its without its uses, but for a lot of people, that one point can be spent more beneficially elsewhere these days.
While I want to understand that, I just don't see it. In the worst case you can use it for a (fairly certain) heal crit invoking 3/3 inspiration on the tank. The mana conservation is just a nice side-effect in a worst-case scenario. If it were say 5 points I'd doubt its usability, but it isn't... It's only one point. I don't believe that all those other 60 points are in better places than there.
On a sidenote... is there *any* use at all for persecution?
On a sidenote... is there *any* use at all for persecution?
No, Moza. It's a lame attempt to provide an effect similar to Blackout, but Incapacitate effects are broken by damage, so realistically the longest you can keep someone controlled is 2 seconds (time between Smites); more probably, with Holy Fire and SW: Pain ticking, it'll be under a second.
I wish Blizzard would learn... I guess the ónly use for it is if you're playing a PvP holy priest, or when levelling. But I wouldn't waste my points there. Not even if it was 1 for 10% stun chance.
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