oh you guys will *love* thisFollow

I'll take an opposing view. Using terrain exploits to gank lowbies without guard interference IS cheating, because it's against the rules. It's an exploit. Multi-boxing is NOT cheating, because it's not against the rules. The reasons for why it's not against the rules may not be clear (though I think you hit the nail on the head), but it is what it is.

Cheating = against the rules.
Multiboxing is not against the rules
Therefore, multiboxing != cheating.

Morally repugnant, annoying, and unfair? Maybe... but this is PvP we're talking about. Anything is fair because PvP ISN'T fair. You said yourself you'd like to try it. So would I! But we don't... and if we're not willing to step up to that plate, we can't really berate people for doing what we long to do.

Well 1vs multi boxer is a little unfair but it looks fun as hell, you can pvp by yourself, you can do 5 mans by yourself and effectively as a shaman, many people are bored with the game and some find this a good way to spice it up. If I had the cash to blow I would love to give this a try, I get so sick of always being in LFG and people not wanting to inv me because I am a dps shaman, I know this is an MMO and you should play with others but sometimes playing by yourself is just as nice.

I don't see a problem in someone trying to enhance there game experience, besides that it is pretty uncommon still I have seen a total of only 2 in my battle groups so far (one that was actually terrible).

Honestly though... Multiboxers have plenty of weaknesses. If you're repeatedly getting 1-shot by a multiboxing shaman in a BG (Mostly AV, never seen multiboxers outside of AV) you really need to learn how to play. I usually find them funny to have around. Yesterday I (as 68 priest) was being ganked by those stupid NPC patrols in between Icewing bunker and Stormpike Graveyard when a multiboxing shaman appeared, 1-shot them with a combined chain lightning and moved on. I chuckled.

You don't know what the hell you're talking about. It's not 'illegal' because Blizzard is a corporate.

It's completely fair. Until you've multi-boxed you can kindly STFU.

There are some serious cons to multi-boxing. It's not a coincidence that it's commonly the same classes being boxed. Try researching why that is.

If you can come up with a good reason why it's not fair I'll easily counter it.

You're robbing a bank analogy was terrible. It's more like going to an all you can eat buffet and getting 5 different courses at once instead of one at a time. It doesn't matter because both people will eat the same food anyways.

You know, I love when someone offers up a differing opinion and the best you can come up with is STFU.

Stuff like ganking, corpse camping lowbies in STV may not be 'illegal' but everyone knows it's cheap, pathetic, requires no skill and basically bending the rules of fair play, and not what the game was intended for.

Boxing is not an exploit. So nobody plays fair, ever? Yeah right. Sorry flawed logic.




My STFU comment was to those who make claims against boxing that have no experience with it. They have no idea what it takes. They automatically assume it's all rainbows and cupcakes. It has nothing to do with people who have different opinions. I welcome those and would love to debate it. But I won't waste my time with noobs who don't know ****. And I did say kindly.




So me as one person is smarter than 5 of you. Good to know, ******.

I really don't see it necessary to start fighting about this. First of all there are only very few boxers in all realms and it will not ruin economy/BG or anything else. In arena those wont propably get too high because of skilled competants with variety of classes.

I can feel the frustration if you get kicked the **** out of you in AV when trying to get that last honor or maybe daily done. There are how ever lots of AV's and not enough boxers for all of em.

Same thing could happen with "join as group" when people get in with arena gear and use team speak to whip ur healers butt all at the same time. Either way this is not a huge problem or do you disagree?

And when someone said that when you get one of ur chars killed you are in trouble... Shamans can res so it's a fight until enemy is down or all of ur chars are down. Well dunno what happens if "main" char dies and there is still 4 standing in the field of glory.

Oh I got your point but it's a stupid one.

You claim boxers are sad and lonely? Well you play WoW. You're a virgin that lives in your parents basement and has cheeto dust on everything. See? Anyone can make absurd claims with nothing to back it up. And yes I'm a lonely twit, I jack off in my cheerios each morning and cry myself to sleep at nights. Thanks for bringing that up.

So far all your remarks or arguments have been conjecture. Wanna take a crack at my mom while you're at it? I'm sure you think she's a *****. I know your mom probably maybe might be.



What I would like to do is try an experiment. Setup two 5-toon teams of shaman; one completely boxed and the other with 5 synergetic individuals. Run both teams as if they were boxed, same gear, similar names, same tactics, etc. I'm willing to bet the 5-man would be mistaken as a boxer.



Almost everyone against boxers had a bad experience with one. They've had their *** handed to them or their friend or guildy or whatever. They turn bias. Which is ironically funny because their arguments against boxers is this absurd one of fair play. The problem is fair is too subjective. What one thinks is fair another doesn't. Like someone mentioned; Fair is when I can do it but you can't. That's what you're doing here. WoW is not a fair game, at least not what you're all thinking it should be, and it never will be. Even taking skill out of the equation you'll probably never have a fair encounter. Even slight gear differences or slightly different specs will create an unfair situation. Both sides are never equal. Is a rogue v.s. a warrior fair? Is a mage v.s. a priest fair? Is a paladin and shaman v.s. a rogue and a rogue fair? Is it fair if my gear is slightly better than yours? What about different specs? Should pvp always be the same classes? What about pve? Is it fair that a priest can heal but a warrior can't? What about dps? You see this game is anything but fair. So why would Blizzard make such an unfair game? Because they have a thing called balance. For every pro there's a con to balance the scales. This is true of classes, specs, gear, etc.

This means that fair is subjective to the balance of the overall game. That means that fair has to be anything that's allowed within the rules. For example look at duels. One player might use pots and the other might claim that wasn't fair. They decide to duel again but both agree that no pots will be used. The second time the same player uses pots again. The first duel was fair. The second one wasn't.

Blizzard has to sit down and decide what is fair and what isn't. Creating a balance throughout the game is their job. If they don't then the game becomes lopsided. Does Blizzard always make the best decision? No, because that's impossible. What's best for one class or player is terrible for another. Sometimes it's enough to make people quit and sometimes they just accept it. I've played some basketball games with a couple of new referees that were absolutely horrible. Ever try arguing with a referee? Good luck with that. Even if it wasn't a good call you have to accept that or go play something else. There's a difference between reasoning and just arguing.

This is what Blizzard does; they're the referees of WoW. Look at what they did with the decursive add-on. They looked at what it did and decided they didn't want to allow it. They made it against the rules. Nobody was punished for using it pre-nerf. Why? Because it wasn't against the rules. Now Blizzard has looked at boxing too. They are aware of the complaints and issues. Instead of making a rash decision they sat down and looked at the pros and cons, the issue of balance. In order for boxing to be fairplay it had to maintain the balance that Blizzard intended.

Where do you draw the line? Because Blizzard has already drew their line for their game. WoW isn't some specialized game designed solely around you. You see whenever you play a game, no matter which one, you agree by the given rules. Sometimes there are rules that players don't like. Those players have to weigh in the pros and cons as they see it and either accept it and play or go do something else. Just like all games WoW is not for everyone. Players usually quit when the cons outweigh the pros.

That 5 man shaman group is going against 5 in your group. Not 2 vs 5. Not 1 vs 5. 5 vs 5. This game is constantly evolving. Players come up with new ideas, tactics, specs, etc. Boxing is one of those. Blizzard looks at balance all the time. It's up to them to make fair rules for the players, their customers. If enough

Blizzard changes those they see unbalanced. If you don't like it then take it up with Blizzard. Make a reasonable argument stating your position and facts to back it up. I'm not sure stating that boxers are anti-social losers (ironic coming from someone who plays video games) is going to influence Blizzard that boxing is unfair. It's immature and does nothing for your argument. Is that really necessary, doo-doo head? Shall I call your mom a *****? I mean she must be to have a ******* like you.

If Blizzard decided tomorrow that boxing is against the rules I would have no problem with that. I also have no problem if they decided to allow it. I look at boxing in an unbiased view. I've looked at the pros and cons. I personally think it's balanced. Does it suck when you get your *** handed to you? Oh absolutely, but that doesn't mean it's unfair.

If you can honestly and unbiasedly list all the pros and cons of it and prove me wrong I'll change my overall view. And keep your immature poopy face remarks out of it please. I sincerely hope to hear back from any of you who can reasonably argue.

MentalFrog your attempts to justify yourself outline most of what I don't like about crusty, jaded internet addicts. You've spent so long in the same mental and emotional environment you've learned to tell fabulous stories to justify almost anything. Your entire diatribe does in fact boil down to precisely what I said; you only judge right and wrong based on what an outside influence tells you. You appear to have no independent concept of it nor any personal standard you adhere to. 'Fair is subjective' is the mating call of a particular breed of person who would really like that to be true, so they can continue being as unfair and opportunistic as they can be and still claim the moral high-ground. "Don't hate the playa hate the game", basically.


I find this really quite microcosmic of the entire issue. You're using words like 'unfair' at the same time as decrying the entire concept of fairness as subjective and without meaning. I would be shocked if you really applied this philosophy to everyday life, and truly believe that fairness doesnt exist and shouldnt be sought after.


Its got nothing to do with gear whatsoever. Your want to PvE multibox, fine. I couldnt care less. Have ten Shamans all walking around farming Felweed, I really dont mind that. Your 'setup' has the capacity to deliver four times the damage/healing/utlity as any individual player. Your playing entity is not a single player, it is s gestalt entity with four times the capability of any individual opponent. You are NOT going to meet four opponents with the same level of unit cohesion, ever, it is not humanly possible. Therefore, your gestalt is a method for purchasing an unfair advantage over the time and money investments of another player.


Actually this isnt particularly true either, particularly bad calls lead to two-way discussion within the overarching organisation, which can lead to changes in the rules. That however is besides the point; WoW is not like a sports match. I actually am a sportsman myself (no ************ in my own filth here by the way, thanks for that revelatory little comment), and your stance on this issue resembles the same snidey little pricks I have to deal with who say "Its not a foul if the ref doesnt see". Yes, yes it is. Similarly, multiboxing to gain an advantage over other players (why else would you be doing it?) is basically unsportsmanlike, and remains 'legal' in WoW for the two reasons already mentioned; it is uncommon enough to go unnoticed for now, and it makes Blizzard money. It's not 'balanced' because by your own example four people are required to stop a single multi-boxer. Players are the limited resource, not characters which are created and destroyed at will.

Anyway, I sincerely doubt you are interested in an 'unbiased' discussion, and despite your protestations to the contrary I don't think your opinion will ever be altered by something you read in this thread. Your thoughts simply operate under a different value system to mine, there's little point trying to reconcile the two.


Edited, Jul 16th 2008 11:10am by Sinstralis

What fabulous stories would those be? That Blizzard decides what rules and game mechanics the game they designed should adhere to? Or that they monitor and punish players' misconduct very much like a referee does in a sports game? Oh yeah, that's completely insane. How stupid of me.

I've spent so long in the same mental and emotional environment? I'm sorry but how would you know my mental or emotional environment for a long period of time, let alone at all? Isn't that just a beat around the bush sugar coated way of you saying I'm stupid?

What about your fabulous stories?



Can you back this up? Or is it purely your opinion?






How would you know I only judge right or wrong based on what an outside influence tells me?

Do you or do you not also play by Blizzard's rules?

Perhaps I should base my judgement by your outside influence. I mean you obviously have better morals.

Since you know what fair is then give me a definition, your definintion, of what it is.




What word did you want me to use?






This is the biggest problem I have with people who argue against boxing. The 'it's 5x the power for 1x the player'. It is 5x the power but it's split up into 5x the toons. These toons don't have any more power, spells, health, mana. This is a group of toons of course it's going to have more capability than any individual opponent. Take a single individual opponent and put them up against a group of 5 players. We're not talking about 1 individual toon taking on a group of 5 players. That's where people see a problem. They somehow think that it's them against someone who is 5x more powerful. You have to realize that it's 5 v.s. 5.

Yeah they're controlled by one player but if you take out one of their toons they're now 4. Same as if you took out a player in a regular 5 man group. Yes having one person control 5 toons has its advantages. The biggest is there is no hesitation, no miscommunication, not even the slightest contention between toons. It's one mind and can react faster than 5 individual minds.

If boxing really was that superior then you'd see it dominate the top of the pvp chain. Can you prove this has happened or will? Why hasn't this happened yet? History has proven that players are quick to jump on the overpowered bandwagon. Exploits spread like wildfire. Why hasn't boxing seen this epidemic?

Even with the financial detterent boxing has it should spread faster. So what's stopping it? Because although it has its advantages there are disadvantages as well. Disadvantages that keep the advantages from making it too powerful and 'unfair'.

One person playing one toon has a single focus. One person playing multiple toons has to split that focus. So I can lower my focus and increase my communication and cooperation efficiency or I can keep my focus and risk the decreased cooperation.

One of the biggest disadvantages in boxing is movement. Keeping all the toons together and moving simultaneously makes them more vulnerable than a regular group to things like aoes. Even Auto-follow can be problematic. This is why you'll find casters to be the most commonly boxed. Melee toons have to get up close and personal. That increased range means less movement.

Most people can't even box. It's harder than it looks.





If you want to try a bit of boxing then setup 4 trial accounts and start a new toon with your main account. Group them all together and start leveling to 20.

You're demanding objective proof when you've only just stated that fairness is subjective and therefore unproveable. In any case, absence of proof is not proof of absence.


No, it isnt, unless you're playing in Arena. Even 5v5 would quickly become 5v4 as you nuke down the first player with EM CL x 5. You want to be judged on your capability against five opponents, when in reality boxers usually avoid parity situations and engage smaller groups. You'd also like us to see multiboxing as simply another technique, another style of play, so you can use phrases like 'balanced' as if it's a 41pt talent or something. Mark my words; multiboxing is only legal because there arent enough people doing it. There arent enough people doing it because most people arent so hell-bent that they'd spend five times the price of the game every month. You're making the stunning assumption that you've got the right idea by doing it in the first place, and that these 'downsides' are putting everyone else off, therefore it's 'balanced'. Simple fact is, if boxing was free, everyone would do it. Four for the price of one. Very few people want to pay that much money, you could buy 5000 gold a month with the same investment. If everybody boxed, Blizzard would ban it; they havent sat down in a room somewhere and decided "Ya know guys, lets give boxers a break, it really takes a lot of skill after all". And before you start harping on about 'proof', neither of us have any. You've convinced yourself you have blessing from on high to do what you're doing, I think they just havent noticed you yet.


This is a completely backwards statement, co-operation efficiency with who exactly? Your team is yourself, your two inversely proportional factors are the same damn thing in this case. You dont need to communicate with anyone, the chief advantage of the setup.


For the FINAL time I dont care about PvE boxing, I dont care what skill it takes or how successful you are, I really dont give a flying f(ish). Spend tons of your real-life cash so you can solo 5mans, that is totally fine with me. I'm talking about PvP boxing and have been since the first post, stop sidetracking the issue to crudely draw attention to your 'skill'.


Didnt I say precisely that we have different value systems and that trying to argue between them is futile? Yet you still want me to present you a different moral perspective just so you can tear it apart and tell everyone how little sense it makes to you. You understand nothing.


That's interesting because you have entirely dismissed that influence in all of your arguments, tacking on a little conciliatory statement changes nothing.


You continue to demand what has already been agreed does not exist. The question has never been "Is boxing against the rules", the question is "Is is unsportsmanlike/lame/etc." If you want to define cheating in such tight terms that's fine, we are back to the moral argument again.


The same as my stance on boxing, almost. It's allowed at the moment, although Blizzard have placed restrictions on it (ie you cant 'harass' people), but I don't consider it particularly good for the game nor in the spirit of the game, essentially the definition of unsportsmanlike. You can argue, while you're quad-Earth Shocking some guy out in World PvP, that it's balanced; "Oh yeah, its balanced, he could box, its in the rules, he could get four friends to help him, it's in the rules" but I think it's quite clear that you will happily engage single players and nuke them down just because you can, in full knowledge there is nothing they can do to retaliate (No, I dont have any proof, and I don't need any. It's an opinion, like everything else in this thread). Ganking and boxing rest upon the belief that if it's allowed then it's ok; I disagree. Lowbie gankers and boxers alike are exploiting a hole in the rules to behave in a manner I find morally distasteful and detrimental to the game as a whole. If you want to say "Oh but the rules say..." then go ahead, I really dont care what the rules say when it comes to excusing actions people take to skew the field of play in their favour. Certain types of behaviour are against basic human decency and civility, getting five lvl70s to lock down lvl30 towns for hours is just the same. It's legal. It stinks. From my moral perspective, it's wrong.

Now, as I've spent far too long explaining already, this debate is meaningless. You are never, ever going to give up your boxing, right or wrong, until Blizzard forcefully stop you, and then you'll be pissed off because of all the effort you sunk into it. No proof will convince you, no eloquent argument will turn you around, and I dont care either way. I've stated my position, not to you but for everyone (in the spirit of a 'forum') as clearly as I can, and so have you. I suggest that be the end of it. If you're looking for some kind of 'victory' in this debate you'll be looking a long time.

Edited, Jul 17th 2008 9:31am by Sinstralis

*sigh*

Do as I do, or ess-tee-eff-you.

As you mention it, I am pretty good mates with a multibox interface coder, he works on adding automation routines to existing MB setups (recall macros etc) to overcome the famous downsides of the concept. He is a freelance coder and picks up a bit of cash for his work. To be honest I don't consider it important, I was focusing on the aspect that having essential immunity from most threats in the game world (ie, other players) that you dont directly expose yourself to is pretty damn unfair despite the downsides.

Frankly I probably know more about the underlying mechanics of multiboxing than most people, but I don't consider that relevant to discussion on whether or not it's a defensible thing to do.

Edited, Jul 17th 2008 10:33am by Sinstralis

You know the more I read this the more I can understand why it would be considered unfair or unsportsmanlike, basically timing perfectly 4 or 5 chain lightning or earth shock can be devastating, even just 3 chain lightning followed by 3 earth shock is pretty much GG right there and would take most groups off guard and kill 1 person right there (about 10k damage all at once).

But I will say it looks very fun, and since it is not against blizzards rules completely legal, the big issue is paying for it all, setting up tons of macros and mods to work with it properly etc etc. It does have some drawbacks but for the most part it once setup has more pros then cons and can do quite well in BGs and in Arena I can see it doing well but I wont assume it goes perfect either, not many teams have gotten way up there with it.

So I guess unsportsmanlike in a bg setting sure (atleast until over run), in arena I would say it is fair game, it can win but I can also see it lose quite often also. No point in really arguing about it to be honest it just looks like something fun to do and while some people try it most will not. You guys are basically arguing over an opinion which is not based on facts but personal morals of what you guys personally feel is fair and I have learned to leave stuff like that alone. Instead enjoy the video maybe check out others because there are a lot of cool ones out there.