A new article in the Rogue Compendium. For those that want to know the "why" and the "how" behind melee DPS.
Enjoy.
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Hit capping, Expertise, and you.Follow
Thanks for that, short, concise, very clear. Answered some nagging questions.
3 things;
Firstly, I didn't realise a mob could dodge while being attacked from behind ... thanks for clearing that up.
Secondly, to what extent does Expertise reduce Parry chance ? .. to the same level as dodge, more, less ?
Thirdly, Don't you sleep ... I'm trusting it's very early where you are (assuming the States), or are you just a very early riser :-)
3 things;
Firstly, I didn't realise a mob could dodge while being attacked from behind ... thanks for clearing that up.
Secondly, to what extent does Expertise reduce Parry chance ? .. to the same level as dodge, more, less ?
Thirdly, Don't you sleep ... I'm trusting it's very early where you are (assuming the States), or are you just a very early riser :-)
Scholar
17 posts
Very nice guide, now people will know why we rogues always attack from behind >.>
1) Yeah, mobs can, players cannot. There are issues with client/server lag where people have parried backstabs/mutilates, but it's really just lag causing it; mobs can dodge from behind, but not parry or block.
2) Expertise effects parry at the exact same rate it effects dodge; there's just supposedly more parry chance than there is dodge by about twice as much, and there's no items in the game that effect Expertise so much that we can attack from the front effectively without worrying about parries.
3) It's ~3am for me right now (I live in Seattle, WA--pacific time zone), and it's the 4th of July tomorrow, so no class, no work, nothing but drinking and fireworks, and maybe some 5v5 arena, so I'm up late.
2) Expertise effects parry at the exact same rate it effects dodge; there's just supposedly more parry chance than there is dodge by about twice as much, and there's no items in the game that effect Expertise so much that we can attack from the front effectively without worrying about parries.
3) It's ~3am for me right now (I live in Seattle, WA--pacific time zone), and it's the 4th of July tomorrow, so no class, no work, nothing but drinking and fireworks, and maybe some 5v5 arena, so I'm up late.
i'm taking this oppertunity to call you a ******* again :)
This is the result of me asking Theo stupid questions via pm. I'm apparently the new rogue class leader and i wanted a short and to the point post explaining hit and expertise. I was also thinking about getting a premium account so i could put this in a journal of my own for quick reference. Now Theo has added it to his and i don't have to pay for premium. Things work out i guess ;)
This is the result of me asking Theo stupid questions via pm. I'm apparently the new rogue class leader and i wanted a short and to the point post explaining hit and expertise. I was also thinking about getting a premium account so i could put this in a journal of my own for quick reference. Now Theo has added it to his and i don't have to pay for premium. Things work out i guess ;)
Overlord Theophany wrote:
1) Yeah, mobs can, players cannot. There are issues with client/server lag where people have parried backstabs/mutilates, but it's really just lag causing it; mobs can dodge from behind, but not parry or block.
2) Expertise effects parry at the exact same rate it effects dodge; there's just supposedly more parry chance than there is dodge by about twice as much, and there's no items in the game that effect Expertise so much that we can attack from the front effectively without worrying about parries.
3) It's ~3am for me right now (I live in Seattle, WA--pacific time zone), and it's the 4th of July tomorrow, so no class, no work, nothing but drinking and fireworks, and maybe some 5v5 arena, so I'm up late.
2) Expertise effects parry at the exact same rate it effects dodge; there's just supposedly more parry chance than there is dodge by about twice as much, and there's no items in the game that effect Expertise so much that we can attack from the front effectively without worrying about parries.
3) It's ~3am for me right now (I live in Seattle, WA--pacific time zone), and it's the 4th of July tomorrow, so no class, no work, nothing but drinking and fireworks, and maybe some 5v5 arena, so I'm up late.
Great, thanks a lot ..
Nice thing is that all of this applies to any Melee Class (having a Fury Warrior as well, I'm helped here on 2 counts). Although the hit factor plays less of a role with the other classes (F Warrior and E Shammy, specifically)
Happy 4th July .. :D
Edited, Jul 4th 2008 5:59am by robertlofthouse
samperor wrote:
i'm taking this oppertunity to call you a ******* again :)
This is the result of me asking Theo stupid questions via pm. I'm apparently the new rogue class leader and i wanted a short and to the point post explaining hit and expertise. I was also thinking about getting a premium account so i could put this in a journal of my own for quick reference. Now Theo has added it to his and i don't have to pay for premium. Things work out i guess ;)
This is the result of me asking Theo stupid questions via pm. I'm apparently the new rogue class leader and i wanted a short and to the point post explaining hit and expertise. I was also thinking about getting a premium account so i could put this in a journal of my own for quick reference. Now Theo has added it to his and i don't have to pay for premium. Things work out i guess ;)
Yeah, I was feeling unlazy/bored (aka there were none of the usual females I harass in Shat online) and I don't feel like sleeping right now.
I also put this together for the rogues in my guild, as I linked to it on our forums.
That and I'm having a dance-off with one of my rogue friends in the Scryer bank right now, which while entertaining, doesn't require much attention.
Edited, Jul 4th 2008 3:00am by Theophany
Changed the formatting a little bit due to some suggestions (thanks, samperor), and added the Expertise for attacking from the front (60).
you could still condense it a little bit i guess but it looks good. Thanks for that.
Edited, Jul 4th 2008 12:19pm by samperor
Edited, Jul 4th 2008 12:19pm by samperor
Good stuff, thanks. One question, don't human rogues get an advantage with glancing blows due to their weapon skill bonuses?
bismarckmajivo wrote:
Good stuff, thanks. One question, don't human rogues get an advantage with glancing blows due to their weapon skill bonuses?
It's Expertise now.
Tiny change: I'd edit it to say that that roll system is for a boss mob.
It doen't really matter, though. Good job.
It doen't really matter, though. Good job.
Great stuff Theo, rate up :)
If I can suggest a formatting/language change, in the summary at the end you specify that the Hit ratings you're talking about are the caps, but not for the Expertise (although if I understand it right, those are effectively the Expertise caps).
So for clarity, instead of:
Hit cap with 5/5 Precision and Imp Faerie Fire: 316
Hit cap with 5/5 Precision: 363
Hit cap without Precision: 442
60 Expetise (hitting from the front, negating parry) in rating: 234
26 Expertise in rating: 102
16 Expertise in rating (because of Weapon Expertise): 63
how about:
Hit cap with 5/5 Precision and Imp Faerie Fire: 316
Hit cap with 5/5 Precision: 363
Hit cap without Precision: 442
Expertise cap (hitting from the front, negating parry): 60 (234 rating)
Expertise cap (from behind): 26 (102 rating)
Expertise cap (from behind, with Weapon Expertise): 16 (63 rating)
If I can suggest a formatting/language change, in the summary at the end you specify that the Hit ratings you're talking about are the caps, but not for the Expertise (although if I understand it right, those are effectively the Expertise caps).
So for clarity, instead of:
Hit cap with 5/5 Precision and Imp Faerie Fire: 316
Hit cap with 5/5 Precision: 363
Hit cap without Precision: 442
60 Expetise (hitting from the front, negating parry) in rating: 234
26 Expertise in rating: 102
16 Expertise in rating (because of Weapon Expertise): 63
how about:
Hit cap with 5/5 Precision and Imp Faerie Fire: 316
Hit cap with 5/5 Precision: 363
Hit cap without Precision: 442
Expertise cap (hitting from the front, negating parry): 60 (234 rating)
Expertise cap (from behind): 26 (102 rating)
Expertise cap (from behind, with Weapon Expertise): 16 (63 rating)
While technically accurate, your conclusions are... well, misleading.
Special attacks (SS et al - anything that shows up in yellow, including caster spells) actually use a two-roll system; once to land (dodge, parry, miss, hit) and then once to crit. This makes Expertise even more valuable than it first appears, because it will actually increase the number of special attack crits. This is completely unlike how autoattack (white) damage works, where increasing your hit/expertise won't increase the number of crits unless you're crit-capping (glancing + crit + dodge + miss > 100%). See Hit Table (WoW)#One Roll or Two? Critical Hits
Special attacks (SS et al - anything that shows up in yellow, including caster spells) actually use a two-roll system; once to land (dodge, parry, miss, hit) and then once to crit. This makes Expertise even more valuable than it first appears, because it will actually increase the number of special attack crits. This is completely unlike how autoattack (white) damage works, where increasing your hit/expertise won't increase the number of crits unless you're crit-capping (glancing + crit + dodge + miss > 100%). See Hit Table (WoW)#One Roll or Two? Critical Hits
RPZip wrote:
While technically accurate, your conclusions are... well, misleading.
Special attacks (SS et al - anything that shows up in yellow, including caster spells) actually use a two-roll system; once to land (dodge, parry, miss, hit) and then once to crit. This makes Expertise even more valuable than it first appears, because it will actually increase the number of special attack crits. This is completely unlike how autoattack (white) damage works, where increasing your hit/expertise won't increase the number of crits unless you're crit-capping (glancing + crit + dodge + miss > 100%). See Hit Table (WoW)#One Roll or Two? Critical Hits
Special attacks (SS et al - anything that shows up in yellow, including caster spells) actually use a two-roll system; once to land (dodge, parry, miss, hit) and then once to crit. This makes Expertise even more valuable than it first appears, because it will actually increase the number of special attack crits. This is completely unlike how autoattack (white) damage works, where increasing your hit/expertise won't increase the number of crits unless you're crit-capping (glancing + crit + dodge + miss > 100%). See Hit Table (WoW)#One Roll or Two? Critical Hits
Yeah, I was mainly writing this for autoattack, as there's really not much info out there that talks about a two roll system for yellow hits. 60%+ of a rogue's damage comes from white hits, and since I'm writing for rogues, I write geared for our class. That's good info though, I'll look at putting the info in there, or if you'd like, you can make a post after mine.
zhaharik wrote:
Great stuff Theo, rate up :)
If I can suggest a formatting/language change, in the summary at the end you specify that the Hit ratings you're talking about are the caps, but not for the Expertise (although if I understand it right, those are effectively the Expertise caps).
If I can suggest a formatting/language change, in the summary at the end you specify that the Hit ratings you're talking about are the caps, but not for the Expertise (although if I understand it right, those are effectively the Expertise caps).
Expertise isn't an absolute cap. We've been able to determine through parsing what the parry/dodge% approximately is, but we've not been able to find an absolute.
Overlord Theophany wrote:
RPZip wrote:
While technically accurate, your conclusions are... well, misleading.
Special attacks (SS et al - anything that shows up in yellow, including caster spells) actually use a two-roll system; once to land (dodge, parry, miss, hit) and then once to crit. This makes Expertise even more valuable than it first appears, because it will actually increase the number of special attack crits. This is completely unlike how autoattack (white) damage works, where increasing your hit/expertise won't increase the number of crits unless you're crit-capping (glancing + crit + dodge + miss > 100%). See Hit Table (WoW)#One Roll or Two? Critical Hits
Special attacks (SS et al - anything that shows up in yellow, including caster spells) actually use a two-roll system; once to land (dodge, parry, miss, hit) and then once to crit. This makes Expertise even more valuable than it first appears, because it will actually increase the number of special attack crits. This is completely unlike how autoattack (white) damage works, where increasing your hit/expertise won't increase the number of crits unless you're crit-capping (glancing + crit + dodge + miss > 100%). See Hit Table (WoW)#One Roll or Two? Critical Hits
Yeah, I was mainly writing this for autoattack, as there's really not much info out there that talks about a two roll system for yellow hits. 60%+ of a rogue's damage comes from white hits, and since I'm writing for rogues, I write geared for our class. That's good info though, I'll look at putting the info in there, or if you'd like, you can make a post after mine.
True, and pretty valid - just thought it'd be helpful to include in an article that relates to Expertise, even if it's not the entire focus of the article. Expertise is undervalued even for people who think it's amazing.
Quote:
zhaharik wrote:
Great stuff Theo, rate up :)
If I can suggest a formatting/language change, in the summary at the end you specify that the Hit ratings you're talking about are the caps, but not for the Expertise (although if I understand it right, those are effectively the Expertise caps).
If I can suggest a formatting/language change, in the summary at the end you specify that the Hit ratings you're talking about are the caps, but not for the Expertise (although if I understand it right, those are effectively the Expertise caps).
Expertise isn't an absolute cap. We've been able to determine through parsing what the parry/dodge% approximately is, but we've not been able to find an absolute.
To expand on Theo's point;
It's very hard to find the absolute cap for Expertise, because is it grainy; there is no fraction of Expertise skill, and the smallest unit is .25% reduction (fractional skill isn't included; .99 Expertise Skill is the same as .75 Expertise skill. It's been shown that players have no dodges on bosses at 6.5% reduction, but do have dodges on bosses at 6.25% reduction; this means the 'true' dodge cap is likely somewhere in between, but stating with certainty where it is becomes extremely difficult without massive numbers of parses.
Parses, mind you, which have to be conducted on boss-level monsters... you can't just parse what happens if you hit the mob in Blasted Lands, since they have a different dodge cap.
Most players just accept 6.5% as the cap; the numbers seem to point to something closer to 6.3-6.4%, but saying this with any degree of statistical certainty is chancy at best.
Edited, Jul 4th 2008 4:45pm by RPZip
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