Breaking this out from the "Almost 70" thread as it's a question on its own...
I'm a big fan of OoC as the logic is pretty clear, but I don't look for the buff or react to it. At all. I just go about my business, and every once in a while I'll go "YIPEE!!!" as I lay down a brutally rapid sequence mangles or shreds thanks to an OoC proc in there somewhere. I saw a comment the other day about how it's best to use your OoC proc on a Maul when you're tanking, which made me curious...do you watch for and take advantage of OoC with specific attacks, or just take it as it comes? If you do take smarter advantage of it than I do, how do you notice the procs?
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Taking Advantage of Omen of ClarityFollow
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Edited, Aug 26th 2008 11:30pm by kawainui
Edited, Aug 26th 2008 11:30pm by kawainui
I notice it by the pretty little sound, but I don't worry about trying to do something specific with it. The only exception is that if it procs right at the end of the fight and it's a bit of a run to the next mob, I'll throw a heal on just so I don't waste it.
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Edited, Aug 26th 2008 11:30pm by kawainui
Edited, Aug 26th 2008 11:30pm by kawainui
Contrary to popular belief, that's why she's a guru...the pies are just the icing on the cake. (hmm, double confectionary metaphor, neat!)
I turned off sound lately cuz I couldn't hear people in Vent...gotta get the balance better somehow.
I turned off sound lately cuz I couldn't hear people in Vent...gotta get the balance better somehow.
i use SCT to help me with my omen procs. it has an alert function for power gains (overpower procs, enrage goes off, you can flurry or extra rage from abilities) that also includes omen of clarity. ive got nice big comic book-style lettering that pops up whenever OoC procs, and its right in front of my face, so hard to miss, even for me.
But do you do anything with that proc awareness, Quor? When dpsing or tanking I mean....not worried about healing applications. I'm sure I could watch for the proc or get an addon or whatever, but I don't really know what I'd do with that info 9.5 times out of 10. Seems to be pretty close to optimal just mixed into the rotation since so many of my attacks are mangles or shreds which have almost the same energy cost.
JeeBar wrote:
But do you do anything with that proc awareness, Quor? When dpsing or tanking I mean....not worried about healing applications. I'm sure I could watch for the proc or get an addon or whatever, but I don't really know what I'd do with that info 9.5 times out of 10. Seems to be pretty close to optimal just mixed into the rotation since so many of my attacks are mangles or shreds which have almost the same energy cost.
When I'm tanking, I'm not watching for Omen of Clarity procs. I have it set so that it flashes in green letters over my toon in the game field, but I'm usually too busy watching other things to really notice/care. I'm rarely so rage starved that it will make or break me, and I doubt I'll progress so far into end-game content that the lost threat from a squandered OoC is going to wipe the raid.
I do try to leverage it in kitty form for that bit of extra rawr. I could be mistaken, but I think that if you use Ferocious Bite with OoC proc up, it counts as a 100 energy FB. Don't take my word for it...all I know is that I've seen some chewy FBs after an OOC proc with < 20 energy on the bar. Either way, it's definately one of those times where FB becames a viable alternative as a finisher in a rapid grind scenario.
nah, ooc doesnt count for a 100 energy FB, it just negates the base cost of FB (35 energy) meaning you can technically get the equivalent of a 100 energy bonus damage FB instead of the normal 65. or is that what you just said? i cant tell its late.
as for when i use it, for tanking its usually on a maul, since it negates the cost of the maul, which if it crits is a net gain of 5 rage instead of a loss of 20+ in most cases.
for cat, you want to use your highest energy move on it, and in most cases that means shred. obviously you want to keep mangle up, so dont restrict your OoC usage based on that, but generally you want to use it on shred.
same applies to caster. need some healing and ooc is up? free regrowth or HT on someone (or even tranq if aoe healing is needed).
Edited, Jul 3rd 2008 2:36am by Quor
as for when i use it, for tanking its usually on a maul, since it negates the cost of the maul, which if it crits is a net gain of 5 rage instead of a loss of 20+ in most cases.
for cat, you want to use your highest energy move on it, and in most cases that means shred. obviously you want to keep mangle up, so dont restrict your OoC usage based on that, but generally you want to use it on shred.
same applies to caster. need some healing and ooc is up? free regrowth or HT on someone (or even tranq if aoe healing is needed).
Edited, Jul 3rd 2008 2:36am by Quor
I use the scrolling combat text addon, so when I get an OoC proc, it pops up right there. For bear, it really doesn't matter a whole lot as far as timing goes. The reason is because the abilities are fairly similar as far as rage consumption. You could use maul, mangle or lacerate. The reason you were told that it helps with maul is that if you don't use maul, you'll most likely fill up on rage due to all the OoC procs, and that just means that all the extra rage you would receive is going to waste.
Some people will argue that maul is better because it usually costs more rage than a lacerate or mangle. This, in my opinion, is wrong for 2 reasons:
1. OoC takes the next move used and makes it free. That means, if you want to use a maul for the OoC, you have to wait about a second for the next white attack before using a mangle or lacerate. Otherwise, the Mangle or Lacerate would use the OoC instead of Maul. You hear that sound? It's the sound of extra threat going down the drain because you're waiting, doing nothing while you wait for a white attack.
2. The difference of rage and threat between a mangle or lacerate as opposed to maul after an OoC proc is, in almost all cases, negligible. If it isn't, you're probably doing something wrong in the first place. There's many more important things to worry about during a fight than a few rage points here and there. The effort required for this would most likely be counterproductive to your tanking efficiency as a whole.
For kitty, it's a different story. In order to maximize dps, I always use Shred after an OoC proc. It's extra dps for the same amount of energy(0 energy). Of course, if you are soloing, you'd want to use mangle instead. Never use an OoC proc on a Ferocious Bite. The move will still consume all of your energy. If you do use it on FB, the extra energy that you save from the move(35) due to OoC will be converted into a negligible amount of extra dps bundled in with the FB. The amount is terribly low for the extra 35 energy spent.
Edited, Jul 3rd 2008 2:04pm by jeffoncom
Some people will argue that maul is better because it usually costs more rage than a lacerate or mangle. This, in my opinion, is wrong for 2 reasons:
1. OoC takes the next move used and makes it free. That means, if you want to use a maul for the OoC, you have to wait about a second for the next white attack before using a mangle or lacerate. Otherwise, the Mangle or Lacerate would use the OoC instead of Maul. You hear that sound? It's the sound of extra threat going down the drain because you're waiting, doing nothing while you wait for a white attack.
2. The difference of rage and threat between a mangle or lacerate as opposed to maul after an OoC proc is, in almost all cases, negligible. If it isn't, you're probably doing something wrong in the first place. There's many more important things to worry about during a fight than a few rage points here and there. The effort required for this would most likely be counterproductive to your tanking efficiency as a whole.
For kitty, it's a different story. In order to maximize dps, I always use Shred after an OoC proc. It's extra dps for the same amount of energy(0 energy). Of course, if you are soloing, you'd want to use mangle instead. Never use an OoC proc on a Ferocious Bite. The move will still consume all of your energy. If you do use it on FB, the extra energy that you save from the move(35) due to OoC will be converted into a negligible amount of extra dps bundled in with the FB. The amount is terribly low for the extra 35 energy spent.
Edited, Jul 3rd 2008 2:04pm by jeffoncom
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Edited, Aug 26th 2008 11:30pm by kawainui
Edited, Aug 26th 2008 11:30pm by kawainui
Net-net, it doesn't make me a total loser to pretty much ignore the procs and go about my business. It'll almost always proc in the midst of a dps rotation of spammed mangles or shreds, or a tanking rotation of mangles/lacerates/swipes/maybe-mauls. I hardly ever use FB, and when I do it's finishing the last mob in a fight, so am not worried about the auto-consumption of all my egerny.
And when WotLK comes along I'll be able to forget about (but still love) my OoC even more when they make it an always-on buff like Leader of the Pack instead of self-applied every 30 minutes. Suh-weet!
Edited, Jul 3rd 2008 1:30pm by JeeBar
And when WotLK comes along I'll be able to forget about (but still love) my OoC even more when they make it an always-on buff like Leader of the Pack instead of self-applied every 30 minutes. Suh-weet!
Edited, Jul 3rd 2008 1:30pm by JeeBar
It depends for me. Whenever I notice it and I'm actually having problems (either tanking or in PvP DPS) I'll try and use a rage/energy-expensive ability for free. If all's going well I just get a free hit in my cycle.
JeeBar wrote:
Contrary to popular belief, that's why she's a guru...the pies are just the icing on the cake. (hmm, double confectionary metaphor, neat!)
Don't be silly, it's all about the cookies and pie.
D'ya know, right now I'm playing 4 priests and my druid not at all? I shouldn't even be here. I iz in ur forum, ******** up ur threads.
When I'm tanking OoC isn't a huge deal to me.
If you are rage starved either you're not getting hit hard enough because you overgear the instance, or you aren't tanking enough to gain sufficient rage due to CC on all other mobs.
You can either switch some gear out to kitty gear or have less CC.
Either way, if you are rage starved and don't switch some things around to fix it, then you're just causing yourself and everyone else issues. Just make sure you put your full tank set back on before bosses. Mob crits aren't gonna hurt that bad if they don't hit you normally enough to give you rage.
When I'm DPSing, OoC crits alot in my initial barrage of Pounce, FFF, Mangle, Shred (or just shred shred if I'm lazy) So then I throw in another shred at the end.
If I'm raiding or in an instance dpsing, so I am already behind the mob I'll shred, if I'm soloing and they aren't stunned, then I'll just mangle.
Either way both should be hitting pretty hard and what the hell else are you hitting when you're attacking anyway? You aren't doing gymnastics. Either you're infront (mangle) or behind (shred).
I never bother with OoC when I'm Healy form since if I need that proc to heal something, **** is already going downhill.
Oh and, Thaytakeye , I do care :-)
If you are rage starved either you're not getting hit hard enough because you overgear the instance, or you aren't tanking enough to gain sufficient rage due to CC on all other mobs.
You can either switch some gear out to kitty gear or have less CC.
Either way, if you are rage starved and don't switch some things around to fix it, then you're just causing yourself and everyone else issues. Just make sure you put your full tank set back on before bosses. Mob crits aren't gonna hurt that bad if they don't hit you normally enough to give you rage.
When I'm DPSing, OoC crits alot in my initial barrage of Pounce, FFF, Mangle, Shred (or just shred shred if I'm lazy) So then I throw in another shred at the end.
If I'm raiding or in an instance dpsing, so I am already behind the mob I'll shred, if I'm soloing and they aren't stunned, then I'll just mangle.
Either way both should be hitting pretty hard and what the hell else are you hitting when you're attacking anyway? You aren't doing gymnastics. Either you're infront (mangle) or behind (shred).
I never bother with OoC when I'm Healy form since if I need that proc to heal something, **** is already going downhill.
Oh and, Thaytakeye , I do care :-)
Wow, haven't posted for a long time... Even longer than since I last played (damned university!), so I apologize in advance if I'm tad out of date and miss something fundemental (last played at 2.4 I think).
I have to disagree on it (did I mention that I was feral like... a year ago?! :) ). The way I see it, if you want to maximize the use of your OoC you should use the ability that costs most rage, therefore it should be Mangle->Swipe->Lacerate->Maul, unless one of them is out of the rotation for some reason (no need for Swipe, or Mangle is on CD or whatever I may be missing).
Now why do I put Maul last on the cost list, it's usually considered the most expensive?
The difference comes from the nature of the talent Omen of Clarity, let me clarify:
It's quite clear that by using OoC on Mangle you save 15 rage, same for Swipe, and for Lacerate it's 13 (if talented), while Maul is usually considered to cost 10 rage + whatever you should have gotten from your next attack, but if I recall correctly, OoCing Maul does not make you gain rage on the attack as per usual with "white" attacks (if I'm wrong here please correct me, it's the most important thing I assumed). So in effect, you only save 10 rage by OoCing Maul, the active cost of the ability itself only.
Being practical though, OoC does not proc often enough for you to really care on what you use.
From what I remember from tanking (5 mans only) my attention was usually on the fight itself and the placement of mobs at any given time and not on min/maxing my rage useage, I gave minimal thinking time to my rotation and changing it to gain a little more rage from something very random which could easily cause me to miss out on more important things, therefore I usually didn't change my rotation while at it. Espacially when the rotation favours the skill roughly according to their cost, or at least that what I remember it to be.
Even though I stated my personnal view above, I'd like to show something to support a different opinion,
That's because I might be dead wrong and would like some extra opinions on it, here goes:
Let's assume OoC procs exactly twice per minute, that's according to Wowwiki:
Option 1 - In a 1 minute fight you use both procs on Maul and "gain" 20 rage.
Option 2 - In a 1 minute fight you the procs on either Mangle or Swipe and "gain" 30 rage.
As you can see, option 2 "gains" 50% more from OoC than option 1 (both are extremes, I know), making the talent OoC 50% more effective with the useage shown in Option 2 compared to Option 1. Might be of value on simpler fights.
In conclusion, I don't think you should pay too much attention to procs of OoC (at least for bear form), espacially in fights you are not 100% confident in (a fight you hardly tanked in before, a bad party, whatever), and even moreso when remembering that the rotation favours high costing skills over the cheaper (when thinking how much OoC can save you, maul is still your most expensive skill if you count in the loss of rage from the converted "white" attack).
Have a nice day, and hope I helped somehow,
Yuval.
Quor wrote:
as for when i use it, for tanking its usually on a maul, since it negates the cost of the maul, which if it crits is a net gain of 5 rage instead of a loss of 20+ in most cases.
I have to disagree on it (did I mention that I was feral like... a year ago?! :) ). The way I see it, if you want to maximize the use of your OoC you should use the ability that costs most rage, therefore it should be Mangle->Swipe->Lacerate->Maul, unless one of them is out of the rotation for some reason (no need for Swipe, or Mangle is on CD or whatever I may be missing).
Now why do I put Maul last on the cost list, it's usually considered the most expensive?
The difference comes from the nature of the talent Omen of Clarity, let me clarify:
It's quite clear that by using OoC on Mangle you save 15 rage, same for Swipe, and for Lacerate it's 13 (if talented), while Maul is usually considered to cost 10 rage + whatever you should have gotten from your next attack, but if I recall correctly, OoCing Maul does not make you gain rage on the attack as per usual with "white" attacks (if I'm wrong here please correct me, it's the most important thing I assumed). So in effect, you only save 10 rage by OoCing Maul, the active cost of the ability itself only.
Being practical though, OoC does not proc often enough for you to really care on what you use.
From what I remember from tanking (5 mans only) my attention was usually on the fight itself and the placement of mobs at any given time and not on min/maxing my rage useage, I gave minimal thinking time to my rotation and changing it to gain a little more rage from something very random which could easily cause me to miss out on more important things, therefore I usually didn't change my rotation while at it. Espacially when the rotation favours the skill roughly according to their cost, or at least that what I remember it to be.
Even though I stated my personnal view above, I'd like to show something to support a different opinion,
That's because I might be dead wrong and would like some extra opinions on it, here goes:
Let's assume OoC procs exactly twice per minute, that's according to Wowwiki:
Option 1 - In a 1 minute fight you use both procs on Maul and "gain" 20 rage.
Option 2 - In a 1 minute fight you the procs on either Mangle or Swipe and "gain" 30 rage.
As you can see, option 2 "gains" 50% more from OoC than option 1 (both are extremes, I know), making the talent OoC 50% more effective with the useage shown in Option 2 compared to Option 1. Might be of value on simpler fights.
In conclusion, I don't think you should pay too much attention to procs of OoC (at least for bear form), espacially in fights you are not 100% confident in (a fight you hardly tanked in before, a bad party, whatever), and even moreso when remembering that the rotation favours high costing skills over the cheaper (when thinking how much OoC can save you, maul is still your most expensive skill if you count in the loss of rage from the converted "white" attack).
Have a nice day, and hope I helped somehow,
Yuval.
Maul has a low rage cost (10), it's the opportunity cost that sucks if you're low on rage. You don't gain rage from a Maul hit, but you would have from the white hit you replaced. OoC only affects the listed cost, so you're better off using Mangle, Swipe, or Lacerate.
ive come to the conclusion that for tanking, it doesnt f*cking matter. the more i think of it the more gray areas come into play, such to the point that there isnt any real rule or set of rules that you can live by. for OoC procs while tanking, use it on whatever the hell you need to use at that time. if that means refreshing demo roar because its almost down, then so be it. if that means another stack of lacerate, then great. if its maul time, then woo hoo, let her rip.
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