i had this discussion with someone else in my guild's senior leadership, about endgame dpsing. i have never raided past T5 content, but i've read that rogues and fury warriors more or less take over end T6 dps, i'm assuming because of unlimited damage potential and burst dps. he says that T6 dps warriors should just be arms BF spec, and not fury.
some input from people raiding T6 content would be appreciated here.
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T6 warriors - fury or arms?Follow
If I understand what i've read from WoWhead, alla, and elitistjerks correctly most guilds bring one BF specc'd warrior and the rest Fury to raids. Having more than one BF specc'd warrior in the raid gimps the 2nds personal dps and the BF has a good enough uptime with just one warrior specc'd into it.
Edit: I r not good at teh spellangz
Edited, Jul 2nd 2008 5:59pm by Tokijinn
Edit: I r not good at teh spellangz
Edited, Jul 2nd 2008 5:59pm by Tokijinn
fury and combat spec players do have the potential for near limitless dps. mana based classes can also create a near perfect mana regen rate, with mp5 and other talents...
what Tokijinn wrote is pretty golden, but it's about sustained dps not burst.
one 2h BF specced warrior is all you need for a raid, and they easily can be the primary OT. Ferals are generally better OT's, since they have one tree for melee and tanking, which makes it easier to spec for doing both. But an arms warrior works just as well, and since the war is their to apply BF as a primary means, their useful as OT almost as much as DPS.
what Tokijinn wrote is pretty golden, but it's about sustained dps not burst.
one 2h BF specced warrior is all you need for a raid, and they easily can be the primary OT. Ferals are generally better OT's, since they have one tree for melee and tanking, which makes it easier to spec for doing both. But an arms warrior works just as well, and since the war is their to apply BF as a primary means, their useful as OT almost as much as DPS.
devioususer wrote:
one 2h BF specced warrior is all you need for a raid, and they easily can be the primary OT. Ferals are generally better OT's, since they have one tree for melee and tanking, which makes it easier to spec for doing both. But an arms warrior works just as well, and since the war is their to apply BF as a primary means, their useful as OT almost as much as DPS.
This simply isn't true in 25-man raids. I mean, even on Gruul the OT's TPS is a huge factor and that doesn't exactly go away as you progress further. The quote unquote "off-tank" is often as critical as the quote unquote "main tank" in a pretty high number of fights. That's in addition to the mitigation being Prot gives you.
EDIT: Partial list off memory;
Leo
Void Reaver
Hydross
Al'ar
Supremus
Gurtogg Bloodboil
Illidari Council
Illidan
Anetheron
Kalecgos
Brutallus
Felmyst (P2 - mostly Protadins, though)
Twin Eredars
Muru
As for the original question, if all you have is one DPS Warrior he probably should be Arms from a pure RDPS standpoint. This can vary somewhat depending upon gearing, though, but it's largely true - BF is a big deal. After that slot, though, Fury Warriors are phenomenal.
Edited, Jul 2nd 2008 6:45pm by RPZip
If I recall, tactical mastery provides a goodly amount of TPS. Nothing compared to a properly geared/specced tank, of course.
::EDIT::
You do lose flurry if you spec TM instead. But it's probably worth the sacrifice, for that specific of a role.
Edited, Jul 2nd 2008 11:59pm by devioususer
::EDIT::
You do lose flurry if you spec TM instead. But it's probably worth the sacrifice, for that specific of a role.
Edited, Jul 2nd 2008 11:59pm by devioususer
devioususer wrote:
If I recall, tactical mastery provides a goodly amount of TPS. Nothing compared to a properly geared/specced tank, of course.
::EDIT::
You do lose flurry if you spec TM instead. But it's probably worth the sacrifice, for that specific of a role.
Edited, Jul 2nd 2008 11:59pm by devioususer
::EDIT::
You do lose flurry if you spec TM instead. But it's probably worth the sacrifice, for that specific of a role.
Edited, Jul 2nd 2008 11:59pm by devioususer
TM makes MS/BT comparable to Shield Slam, although not as strong, but you're still missing Defiance and Devastate. It's going to be 20-25% less TPS than an equivalent Prot tank, plus the Mit loss.
You're much better off with a BF Warrior and using dedicated OTs. We run one Prot Warrior, one Protadin, one Feral Druid and it covers all of our potential tanking needs nicely.
RPZip wrote:
As for the original question, if all you have is one DPS Warrior he probably should be Arms from a pure RDPS standpoint. This can vary somewhat depending upon gearing, though, but it's largely true - BF is a big deal. After that slot, though, Fury Warriors are phenomenal.
Edited, Jul 2nd 2008 6:45pm by RPZip
Edited, Jul 2nd 2008 6:45pm by RPZip
now, i don't believe i have ever seen a breakpoint where a fury warrior's personal dps+battleshout buffing the group melee > blood frenzy buffing raid physical dps. of course, this is highly dependent on the other physical dpsers in the raid, but as an example, i am now consistently in the top 5 of total damage output on boss fights with one or two rogues, one or two hunters, and one or two mages depending on the fight. i'm assuming that if you were in the lower tier of dpsers (say, 11/15 or lower) then you should probably spec blood frenzy since you don't bring much personal dps to the table anyway.
any thoughts on this?
Add up what 4% damage equals if strictly applied to every Hunter, Rogue, Feral Druid, Warrior (excluding you) and then look at any Retadin or Enhancement Shaman's damage and add up all non-spell damage (exclude Shocks for Shaman and any Seals/Judgement damage for Retadins). That is the amount of DPS plus one you'd have to lose for the change to not be worthwhile; lose any less and it's a DPS gain, lose any more and it's a DPS loss.
This is usually a positive, but not universally; YMMV. It's also weaker for obvious reasons on fights where not all physical damage is on the same target.
This is usually a positive, but not universally; YMMV. It's also weaker for obvious reasons on fights where not all physical damage is on the same target.
ok, so in my most recent WWS on mag/gruul farm, looking specifically at the gruul kill and rounding up, the 4% increase to raid total physical damage output would've been about 60k. so, if i understand you correctly, since i put out about 280k total damage in the fight, assuming i specced to blood frenzy my personal total damage out + 60k would have to be <280k for the respec to be considered a dps loss. if my personal total damage out + 60k turned out to be >280k, then that's a dps gain.
so, to answer my breakpoint question, if the dps warrior in question put out <4% of all raid physical total damage out as his personal total damage out, then he should definitely respec to blood frenzy (and probably l2play warrior as well).
Edited, Jul 7th 2008 5:17pm by fromanthebarbarian
so, to answer my breakpoint question, if the dps warrior in question put out <4% of all raid physical total damage out as his personal total damage out, then he should definitely respec to blood frenzy (and probably l2play warrior as well).
Edited, Jul 7th 2008 5:17pm by fromanthebarbarian
Quote:
so, to answer my breakpoint question, if the dps warrior in question put out <4% of all raid physical total damage out as his personal total damage out, then he should definitely respec to blood frenzy (and probably l2play warrior as well).
No, unless I'm misunderanding what you're saying, which is highly possible.
Take, for example, the following situation:
Prot warrior, 350dps
Feral druid, 450dps
Rogue, 1800dps
Rogue, 1700dps
Hunter, 1800dps
Hunter, 1600dps
Enhancement shammy, 1600dps
Warrior
In that situation, in order for the warrior to legitimately stay fury, his personal DPS has to be equal to his personal Blood Frenzy DPS plus about 380, which most likely means he needs to be pushing 2000-2100dps as fury in order to counter the loss of Blood Frenzy.
Just another thing to keep in mind: BF is highly latency-dependent. We've got an Aussie fury warrior who occasionally goes BF when our other warrior can't make it, and his DPS drops so low (by >500dps) I wonder if it's even worth it.
lsfreak wrote:
Quote:
so, to answer my breakpoint question, if the dps warrior in question put out <4% of all raid physical total damage out as his personal total damage out, then he should definitely respec to blood frenzy (and probably l2play warrior as well).
No, unless I'm misunderanding what you're saying, which is highly possible.
Take, for example, the following situation:
Prot warrior, 350dps
Feral druid, 450dps
Rogue, 1800dps
Rogue, 1700dps
Hunter, 1800dps
Hunter, 1600dps
Enhancement shammy, 1600dps
Warrior
In that situation, in order for the warrior to legitimately stay fury, his personal DPS has to be equal to his personal Blood Frenzy DPS plus about 380, which most likely means he needs to be pushing 2000-2100dps as fury in order to counter the loss of Blood Frenzy.
Just another thing to keep in mind: BF is highly latency-dependent. We've got an Aussie fury warrior who occasionally goes BF when our other warrior can't make it, and his DPS drops so low (by >500dps) I wonder if it's even worth it.
Pretty much correct, although Arms is _probably_ a bit lower on the DPS charts than you gave it credit for, which makes the Fury target somewhat more reasonable.
EDIT: Looking at the WWS you posted (stupid 8 minute load times, goddamn) the physical attackers excluding you did about 1.48m damage. With the numbers you posted, as long as you can sustain above 730 DPS on Gruul you'd get more damage out of Blood Frenzy. That's ~73% of your current DPS, which should be easily doable.
Also, one of your hunters really sucks.
Edited, Jul 8th 2008 4:37pm by RPZip
edited for useless post and answering my own question.
Edited, Jul 11th 2008 6:32pm by fromanthebarbarian
Edited, Jul 11th 2008 6:32pm by fromanthebarbarian
2 posts
Quote:
ok, so in my most recent WWS on mag/gruul farm, looking specifically at the gruul kill and rounding up, the 4% increase to raid total physical damage output would've been about 60k. so, if i understand you correctly, since i put out about 280k total damage in the fight, assuming i specced to blood frenzy my personal total damage out + 60k would have to be <280k for the respec to be considered a dps loss. if my personal total damage out + 60k turned out to be >280k, then that's a dps gain.
Quote:
I thought this thread was about T6 content/players. Can we refrain from posting about nub t4 encounters in this thread?
The point remains the same. RDPS vs personal dps. T4 or T6, BF wars provide the same % bonus to the raid.
CooCooKaCHoo wrote:
Quote:
ok, so in my most recent WWS on mag/gruul farm, looking specifically at the gruul kill and rounding up, the 4% increase to raid total physical damage output would've been about 60k. so, if i understand you correctly, since i put out about 280k total damage in the fight, assuming i specced to blood frenzy my personal total damage out + 60k would have to be <280k for the respec to be considered a dps loss. if my personal total damage out + 60k turned out to be >280k, then that's a dps gain.
1) the OP was whether or not warriors in T6 content should only be specced arms for blood frenzy, and should fury warriors be excluded altogether. Then the question became: "at what breakpoints of RDPS and personal dps does blood frenzy become valid?" Soz that I only have gruul farms to compare my dps against, since I didn't have any reliable WWS of T5 encounters where I came near the top of the meters as fury spec. So go DIAF and thanks for your wonderful contribution to the discussion.
2) also l2read post. Your reading comprehension fails here.
Edited, Jul 27th 2008 3:48pm by fromanthebarbarian
nvm
Edited, Jul 28th 2008 10:28am by SynnTastic
Edited, Jul 28th 2008 10:28am by SynnTastic
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