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AoE healFollow
That isn't even getting into bosses with gigantic hit boxes and cleave where Consecrate would still not hit melee, or going into why would we want to completely redefine one of the most finely tuned healing classes into a melee healer when healing maces have 41.4 dps or something like that.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Oh just for fun, we must all agree that healadin isn't broken anyway... But it could be great if wotlk actually added even more differences betwenn healing classes instead of making them standard, not in healing power but in play style. Healing in melee range is just something that has never been seen in wow, just an idea among many possibilities... What we can also say is that tBC has changed many many things in end-game PVE, and I enjoyed it! I hope radical new play styles are coming up in that expansion again.
Edited, Jul 3rd 2008 10:50am by egraynn
Edited, Jul 3rd 2008 10:50am by egraynn
They are adding a reactive healing spell to Paladins in WotLK, described as a "Single-target version of Prayer of Mending" which to me just sounds like earth shield. I think the range limitation on melee healing just makes it a bad idea. The fact that I would have to physically move around to potentially pump out more healing just doesn't work in soo many boss fights.
On a side note, Gift of the Naaru with trinkets popped ticks for 750+ now. If only it didn't have the cooldown 
Helps on guaranteed spike damage though like Mother Enrage, Bloodboil etc.
Helps on guaranteed spike damage though like Mother Enrage, Bloodboil etc.Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
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Except as it is Prot pallies are not having threat issues and overheals generate no threat so at best its affect on melee would be hit or miss and only generate minor threat in a sporadic manner. Also situations where you don't want to gather threat on all mobs. Mage tank/Rogue tank on Illidari Council as an example. That and the fact that the Prot tree is already talent point heavy.
You're right, Bodhis. Clearly I am not being paid enough to post here if I am to best two years of class design with every post.
You entirely missed the point of my post, I was essentially saying that a strong AoE heal would be out of character for a Paladin. My suggestion was for a minor, minor buff to Consecrate that would help out with melee maintenance, give a little more threat, and not require the kind of redesign some suggestions need.
Yes some people will be outside the area. Yes, overheals dont generate threat. These points are irrelevant because the idea was kind of a side-benefit, not intended as a class-definer, just a nice little lore-friendly ability to make Protadins that little more desirable as an MT. Healing mace? The point was that it'd benefit from spell damage like Consecrate, not any +healing.... I believe I was clear on this point.
Nor do I understand this 'redefine into a melee healer' comment, I find it frankly reactionary. Two talent points doth not a class redefine.
In any case, I sincerely doubt we'll see any kind of AoE whatsoever, hell maybe they'll make Divine Shield give a Prayer of Healing effect for fun, but AoE healing is beyond us sadly. A proccable low-wattage AoE or HoT from our existing spells would be nice though.
The one reason why a Holy Paladin might actually WANT to Judge Light on a target would be that the Ret Paladin in the group can keep up ALL Judgements on a target, regarless of which Paladin put the Judgement on the target in the first place, so imo Healadins should be throwing Judgement of Light at a main target/boss at least at the start of a fight. They don't have to sit at the front and melee, but if they aren't putting this Judgement on the main target, they are partially wasting the Ret. Paladins abilities to refresh all of the Judgements on a target with their Crusader Strike.
I mean, c'mon folks... it isn't like crusader strike is adding THAT much to the Ret DPS, it is mostly there for the universal judgement refreshment.
I mean, c'mon folks... it isn't like crusader strike is adding THAT much to the Ret DPS, it is mostly there for the universal judgement refreshment.
Sinstralis wrote:
You entirely missed the point of my post,
No I didn't, feel free to read it again and figure out why on your own though. I am sure you will get it eventually.
Edited, Jul 3rd 2008 12:45pm by bodhisattva
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Healing is not the job of the prot tree, and we have enough abilities to be desired as tanks even on bosses. Many guilds still use warriors on every boss when it just isn't smart. That is only a question of mentality, not of game mechanics. The solution is simple: as it was done for druids with tBC, make tankadins really over-powered for one or two months at the beginning of the next expansion, then nerf them back to normal, and players will love us (players AND guild leaders are very few to read patch notes, and to understand them).
I didn't say healing in melee range was a good idea, nor that the game was already designed for that... But yes when you look at some of the gears, set bonus, and abilities you see that Blizzard didn't know at the beginning where they wanted healadins to be placed during fights. Now healadins will certainly have their current role even enhanced, with this reactive single target heal, they will spam the tank from max range forever, it is neither good nor bad news to me ;p
But I think new players believe they are made to be placed in melee when they read the class description, if it has not been updated since the last time I read it (hum long long time in fact!)
Edited, Jul 4th 2008 2:33am by egraynn
I didn't say healing in melee range was a good idea, nor that the game was already designed for that... But yes when you look at some of the gears, set bonus, and abilities you see that Blizzard didn't know at the beginning where they wanted healadins to be placed during fights. Now healadins will certainly have their current role even enhanced, with this reactive single target heal, they will spam the tank from max range forever, it is neither good nor bad news to me ;p
But I think new players believe they are made to be placed in melee when they read the class description, if it has not been updated since the last time I read it (hum long long time in fact!)
Edited, Jul 4th 2008 2:33am by egraynn
Blizzard had the chance to make Holy pallies real special and unique. at their disposal were seals, judgements, blessings on-the-fly, plate armor, and cleansing. but how many of these characteristics i listed are left behind when you begin a raid?
pallies could have been the ultimate support class. instead the get the most basic of spells which to utilize.
pallies could have been the ultimate support class. instead the get the most basic of spells which to utilize.
tommyguns wrote:
Blizzard had the chance to make Holy pallies real special and unique. at their disposal were seals, judgements, blessings on-the-fly, plate armor, and cleansing. but how many of these characteristics i listed are left behind when you begin a raid?
pallies could have been the ultimate support class. instead the get the most basic of spells which to utilize.
pallies could have been the ultimate support class. instead the get the most basic of spells which to utilize.
Let us all take a second and lament what could have been, pop open that bottle of OE and let a little poor out on the ground for the dead homie that was the Potential of Paladins.
/mourn
Or lets take a second, discard any faux nostalgia which has absolutely no bearing on actual game play and have an honest discussion about the class, where it was, where it is now and where it is going. Sound like a plan Tommy?
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
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Or lets take a second, discard any faux nostalgia which has absolutely no bearing on actual game play and have an honest discussion about the class, where it was, where it is now and where it is going. Sound like a plan Tommy?
If all your replies are as needlessly caustic as this one then I doubt anyone will be inclined to partake in any debate you propose, and will just keep their thoughts to themselves. If you dont agree with people or think their ideas are a bit dumb that's fine, but I see no need to sharpen your wit claws at the same time.
Anyway, in the spirit of the debate, I dont believe anyone was suggesting healing is a Protadin's 'job', like I said it's a little side benefit of minimal impact but another little string to the bow.
In Holy Paladin terms, where the class is going is hard and fast down the same track; direct-heals only and mana efficiency. Unfortunately Paladin efficiency is already so good that they cant really buff it any more, so apart from a new healing tool (Im hoping Hand of Purity isnt a 51pter, that would annoy me) like another instant nukeheal or more crit-linked procs.
Another idea would be, increase healing effectiveness to low-HP targets; if your target has less than 35% HP, either increase critical effect chance substantially or decrease casting time. A reliable ability to save a dying tank without Nature's Swiftness would round out the class nicely. Five ranks just above your 51pter in Holy.
Prot pally healing consecrate. I pointed out how it would be wildly inefficient for aggro generation both in terms of small heals, overhealing and hitbox range issues causing it to
be out of range of the melee. That isn't even taking into account about a dozen other situation where it would be bad such as on an encounter where the prot pally is tanking mobs away from melee who are hitting another mob, or the fact that aggro generation for a prot pally isn't an issue right now especially multi mob aggo. Your response, "it would be nice, in a lore kind of way".
The first thought that pops into my jaded head is "So lets add a feature that has a myriad of design problems that helps with an issue that is not actually a problem, by adding another feature to an already point heavy talent tree, yeah that sounds like a magnificently well thought out idea". Basically a **** poor idea that fixes something that wasn't broken in the first place by implementing a talent that doesnt work at all, explain to me how that doesn't deserve to be responded to with derision? I even promise to respond courteously if you have a response that isn't as broken as your last two, because I would appreciate you not supporting broken ideas with broken logic, it would be a refreshing mist of awesome.
As for Holy Paladins what is exactly the issue with us being the best single tank healers in the game? Najentus, Supremus, all the Hyjal fights, Akama, Council etc I top meters, fights like Bloodboil where there is splash damage I keep my target alive which is more important than topping meters. In pvp I am survivable enough to put on 4 piece t6 with pvp gear and still have 130+ mp5 when the other teams healer has 50 mp5 and is in cloth, not considering the utility especially in 3v3 and 5v5 that I bring to the table. Do you think that chain heal is somehow more dynamic than pally healing or that a druid placing the 2 spells on a guy while other healers in the raid top people off before they tick is anymore exciting and dynamic than pally healing? It boils down to what it always boils down to. The grass is greener, wanting poorly thought out I win button rather than learning to get the most out of the class and compensating with skill. As if mages arent scorch x 5 fireball, or rogues doing a simple rotation as well, or t6 locks keeping their curse up and spamming 1 button Shadowbolts.
Big picture is that we fit extremely well with the balance of healers and have our spot in a raid, same with tanking. We fill our niche and excel at it. Other healers fill other niches and lack where we are strong. Which means the healers balance each other out which is exactly the class balance that Blizzard was looking for. If you feel we came out with the short end of the stick then you obviously are ignorant about a number of factors affecting the other healers and viewing the situation through rose coloured glasses.
Edited, Jul 4th 2008 4:31pm by bodhisattva
be out of range of the melee. That isn't even taking into account about a dozen other situation where it would be bad such as on an encounter where the prot pally is tanking mobs away from melee who are hitting another mob, or the fact that aggro generation for a prot pally isn't an issue right now especially multi mob aggo. Your response, "it would be nice, in a lore kind of way".
The first thought that pops into my jaded head is "So lets add a feature that has a myriad of design problems that helps with an issue that is not actually a problem, by adding another feature to an already point heavy talent tree, yeah that sounds like a magnificently well thought out idea". Basically a **** poor idea that fixes something that wasn't broken in the first place by implementing a talent that doesnt work at all, explain to me how that doesn't deserve to be responded to with derision? I even promise to respond courteously if you have a response that isn't as broken as your last two, because I would appreciate you not supporting broken ideas with broken logic, it would be a refreshing mist of awesome.
As for Holy Paladins what is exactly the issue with us being the best single tank healers in the game? Najentus, Supremus, all the Hyjal fights, Akama, Council etc I top meters, fights like Bloodboil where there is splash damage I keep my target alive which is more important than topping meters. In pvp I am survivable enough to put on 4 piece t6 with pvp gear and still have 130+ mp5 when the other teams healer has 50 mp5 and is in cloth, not considering the utility especially in 3v3 and 5v5 that I bring to the table. Do you think that chain heal is somehow more dynamic than pally healing or that a druid placing the 2 spells on a guy while other healers in the raid top people off before they tick is anymore exciting and dynamic than pally healing? It boils down to what it always boils down to. The grass is greener, wanting poorly thought out I win button rather than learning to get the most out of the class and compensating with skill. As if mages arent scorch x 5 fireball, or rogues doing a simple rotation as well, or t6 locks keeping their curse up and spamming 1 button Shadowbolts.
Big picture is that we fit extremely well with the balance of healers and have our spot in a raid, same with tanking. We fill our niche and excel at it. Other healers fill other niches and lack where we are strong. Which means the healers balance each other out which is exactly the class balance that Blizzard was looking for. If you feel we came out with the short end of the stick then you obviously are ignorant about a number of factors affecting the other healers and viewing the situation through rose coloured glasses.
Edited, Jul 4th 2008 4:31pm by bodhisattva
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
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Prot pally healing consecrate. I pointed out how it would be wildly inefficient for aggro generation both in terms of small heals, overhealing and hitbox range issues causing it to
be out of range of the melee.
be out of range of the melee.
Well, yes, this would be a basic limitation of the ability, ie; not at IWIN button or some magic group healing megaspell. To be honest the ability would seem more suited to 5mans, just like Reckoning. I dont personally know any Protadins who bother with it past Karazhan, but it has superb potential for soloing and 5mans. As for the 'Prot is overloaded with talents' I agree, but Blizzard's poor choices on talent design wont prevent me from considering alternatives. An endgame tank just doesnt have to spec for the ability if it'll be disruptive on certain fights.
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explain to me how that doesn't deserve to be responded to with derision?
To be honest Im personally quite surprised you're appealing to a total stranger for a reason not to treat people with utter contempt.
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I even promise to respond courteously if you have a response that isn't as broken as your last two, because I would appreciate you not supporting broken ideas with broken logic
The concepts of 'broken ideas' and 'broken logic' when talking on an internet forum about something that is essentially imaginary, tend to become quite subjective. What seems obviously broken to me might seem clearly correct to you. Is it too much to ask that even under the situations where we dont agree at all, we treat each other with a modicum of respect instead of immediately going on the offensive to berate one another over the most inconsequential issues?
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As for Holy Paladins what is exactly the issue with us being the best single tank healers in the game?
I dont recall implying there was one, in fact Im certain I didnt. Your entire textcrit paragraph restates a dozen things we already know in response to a non-existent criticism. I am quite happy with my Paladin being able to keep the tank alive without the mana bar moving more than a pixel a minute, but you said 'lets talk about class future' so I gave that a go. Silly me.
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Do you think that chain heal is somehow more dynamic than pally healing or that a druid placing the 2 spells on a guy while other healers in the raid top people off before they tick is anymore exciting and dynamic than pally healing?
Again, a redundant statement, you're the first person to bring this up. I dont think so, no.
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Big picture is that we fit extremely well with the balance of healers and have our spot in a raid, same with tanking. We fill our niche and excel at it. Other healers fill other niches and lack where we are strong.
Yup.
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If you feel we came out with the short end of the stick then you obviously are ignorant about a number of factors affecting the other healers and viewing the situation through rose coloured glasses.
Again, an unusually combative answer to a minor side-topic. Tommy obviously believes we could use some support abilities and I don't entirely disagree, but nobody's saying the sky is falling.
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To be honest Im personally quite surprised you're appealing to a total stranger for a reason not to treat people with utter contempt.
A man can hope can't he?
End of the day its a horrible idea, if you looked at it a little bit more critically you would see how it is actually even more unfeasible for 5/10 man encounters than it is for 25 mans.
Allow me to pull out an old quote
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okiez >.< I'll give up on it, thanks for your advice I guess, though it was delivered in a kinda harsh way
In defence of Bohdi, There is no polite way to say : You idea totally sucks.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
I agree that we should discuss here without harm, furthermore it is only a speculation thread.
Being concerned as a tank, I just want to add something about the healing consecration idea.
I would hate to use it in most situations, because at a good gear level, the greatest difficulty for a tankadin is drinking and managing mana during fights. There is nothing worse than dps players pulling mobs 'cause they just can't wait anymore.
For that reason I would hate to heal myself, even more with a constant hot... Give me mana for easy instances and solo play please, but no self heal ^^.
PS: well, will this new reactive heal be instant cast? If it was it would be usefull to a prot pally (in serious fights).
Being concerned as a tank, I just want to add something about the healing consecration idea.
I would hate to use it in most situations, because at a good gear level, the greatest difficulty for a tankadin is drinking and managing mana during fights. There is nothing worse than dps players pulling mobs 'cause they just can't wait anymore.
For that reason I would hate to heal myself, even more with a constant hot... Give me mana for easy instances and solo play please, but no self heal ^^.
PS: well, will this new reactive heal be instant cast? If it was it would be usefull to a prot pally (in serious fights).
Quoted from Blizzard (Source: http://wowpaladin.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/alphablue2.jpg)
Quite honestly one of the reasons we saved paladins for last is because there is a lot we wanted to change with them. Paladins are changing probably more than any other class. The tiny little bit you heard at the WWI is just the beginning.
The discussion about a new healing spell was just to say yes, we think paladins need another healing mechanic. It isn’t finished yet. We don’t want to just hand them a thinly disguised druid or priest spell. We also want paladins to tank more actively and want retribution paladins to have a little better control over their damage without the bursts feeling quite so random. (And no, that’s not all we’re looking at).
It’s all coming. It’s just a lot of work. Try to stay positive. Everyone in the alpha was invited because they have a close connection to someone at Blizzard. You’re here because we value your feedback.
Quite honestly one of the reasons we saved paladins for last is because there is a lot we wanted to change with them. Paladins are changing probably more than any other class. The tiny little bit you heard at the WWI is just the beginning.
The discussion about a new healing spell was just to say yes, we think paladins need another healing mechanic. It isn’t finished yet. We don’t want to just hand them a thinly disguised druid or priest spell. We also want paladins to tank more actively and want retribution paladins to have a little better control over their damage without the bursts feeling quite so random. (And no, that’s not all we’re looking at).
It’s all coming. It’s just a lot of work. Try to stay positive. Everyone in the alpha was invited because they have a close connection to someone at Blizzard. You’re here because we value your feedback.
Wow... frankly I'm thrilled to hear that, thank you for posting that link.
I actually agree that all three Paladin specs feel like a bit of a throwback, not that it's necessarily a bad thing but having two healing spells (I dont really count Holy Shock, you only use it as a panic button) for the divinely-inspired 'Holy Warrior' is a little bit suspect considering the sheer volume of options available to other classes; even Shamans have three viable spells. Now yes, Flash of Light kicks ***, and Holy Light isnt bad either, but a slightly broader range of options would be nice if only for variety.
Like I said, I'd like to see a minimal AoE effect on critical heals, or a talent that increases healing (or decrreases casting time) on targets below a certain health percantage. Saving the tank from sudden burst is still my biggest problem without an NS-like ability or a reactive heal.
I say gg Blizz, bring on the changes, assuming they're worth the wait.
I actually agree that all three Paladin specs feel like a bit of a throwback, not that it's necessarily a bad thing but having two healing spells (I dont really count Holy Shock, you only use it as a panic button) for the divinely-inspired 'Holy Warrior' is a little bit suspect considering the sheer volume of options available to other classes; even Shamans have three viable spells. Now yes, Flash of Light kicks ***, and Holy Light isnt bad either, but a slightly broader range of options would be nice if only for variety.
Like I said, I'd like to see a minimal AoE effect on critical heals, or a talent that increases healing (or decrreases casting time) on targets below a certain health percantage. Saving the tank from sudden burst is still my biggest problem without an NS-like ability or a reactive heal.
I say gg Blizz, bring on the changes, assuming they're worth the wait.
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Saving the tank from sudden burst is still my biggest problem
Agreed. The best way to work this is to research the fights so that you know when the big burst damage is coming.
For example - Illhoof chains. If you have DBM or something like that, you'll know a few seconds before the chains come. Try not to be in the middle of a cast, distracted, or anything like that. Once you see the de-buff appear - cast away. If you wait for someone to realize they have been chained, and then say "I'm chained", and then you start to cast...chances are that they will die.
bodhisattva wrote:
Ret paladins were shaky for the first half of TBC but with fixes to threat as well as blizzard finally deciding on itemization after 3 years they have slowly become a respectable tool for any raid force.....All three builds are raid viable...
!!!!!!!!!! what in the world happened to you bodh? i stop reading the forums for 2 months and you start making crazy claims like this? i almost had a heart attack when i read this.
in response to the rest of the thread, i thought for a while and couldn't remember the last time i had to tell a group i couldn't heal a fight cause i had no AOE heals... admittedly, my healer hasn't gone as far as my ret, but i've healed all instances and heroics and 2 pally healed kara all w/o the thought of aoe weaknesses. my healer did a random one night stint on VR, but otherwise hasn't moved past kara, so maybe i'm missing something... i think any raid past that should have enough variety of healers though for that not to be an issue.
and i think bodh is overreacting to adding a healing component to consecrate, but the only thing i see that idea being an answer to is tanks that let sucky healers heal for them... my ret goes prot occassionally for heroics and kara (not geared for anything past that as tank) and even though my tank gear is pathetic imo threat is one thing hat has never been a problem. nd i have a group heal if i really want to use it in JoL. rarely ever need the extra threat from JotC anyway... i usually use JoW just for less downtime between fights.
.... i don't know if i can get used to a ret-tolerant bodh... thats still boggling my mind. lol
Well discussions about what we would like do tend to spiral into discussions about what we absolutely need, and that is an impossible argument because nobody likes to admit that they need another healing spell because that makes them look like crappy players.
I don't need another tool to keep people alive, of course not, I know how to play my class and two heals are of course enough for me to do my job; however, I'd like to see Paladins get one or two new mechanics to compensate for a lot of people (in the end, the vast majority) who find healing difficult. Once you get to Heroics the number of competent players gets cut at least in half, competent tanks and healers are like gold dust. If we could add an extra tool that would make a greater number of players viable in harder content, I'd see that as a good thing.
As for healing Consecration, taking what little constructivism Ive seen in response to it, simply make it threatless (the subtext being, suggest improvements rather than making smartass comments). It'd have basically the same utility as Healing Stream or Vampiric Embrace, a little extra healing for the melee group. Nothing earth-shattering, just a little helping hand for (again) substandard healers and Rogues who always seem to be taking damage somehow.
As for Ret in Raids.... it's a possibility. I've done Karazhan as a green-geared Retadin and come third on the damage charts, but then my group wasnt exactly top-notch either. I suspect it's worth bringing one along for the 2%dmg/3%crit and the extra Blessing, but it's not something I'd stake as a core raid component.
Bottom line, Blizzard's comment suggests that they believe all three specs need new mechanics and/or new approaches; Bodhi may consider them all 'raid-viable', but it doesnt look like Blizzard do.
I don't need another tool to keep people alive, of course not, I know how to play my class and two heals are of course enough for me to do my job; however, I'd like to see Paladins get one or two new mechanics to compensate for a lot of people (in the end, the vast majority) who find healing difficult. Once you get to Heroics the number of competent players gets cut at least in half, competent tanks and healers are like gold dust. If we could add an extra tool that would make a greater number of players viable in harder content, I'd see that as a good thing.
As for healing Consecration, taking what little constructivism Ive seen in response to it, simply make it threatless (the subtext being, suggest improvements rather than making smartass comments). It'd have basically the same utility as Healing Stream or Vampiric Embrace, a little extra healing for the melee group. Nothing earth-shattering, just a little helping hand for (again) substandard healers and Rogues who always seem to be taking damage somehow.
As for Ret in Raids.... it's a possibility. I've done Karazhan as a green-geared Retadin and come third on the damage charts, but then my group wasnt exactly top-notch either. I suspect it's worth bringing one along for the 2%dmg/3%crit and the extra Blessing, but it's not something I'd stake as a core raid component.
Bottom line, Blizzard's comment suggests that they believe all three specs need new mechanics and/or new approaches; Bodhi may consider them all 'raid-viable', but it doesnt look like Blizzard do.
Sinstralis wrote:
nobody likes to admit that they need another healing spell because that makes them look like crappy players.
lol, i'm the first to admit i suck at something. i think i'm only an average skilled healer. i just find healing on my pally to be easy enough already. and discussions of what we'd like to see turn into what we need because if we get things we only want but don't need, we'd end up having something else nerfed which would be bad for us.
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however, I'd like to see Paladins get one or two new mechanics to compensate for a lot of people (in the end, the vast majority) who find healing difficult. Once you get to Heroics the number of competent players gets cut at least in half, competent tanks and healers are like gold dust. If we could add an extra tool that would make a greater number of players viable in harder content, I'd see that as a good thing.
i'm sorry if i'm argumentative, but it seems to me that you're suggesting making the game super easy just because some people have a harder time with one of the easiest parts of the game... i think a better answer is if you have that healer that can't figure out how to make it work take a second to help him out. my gf hated it when i do that (not the pally talk again) but i've had many people put me on their friends list to get healing advice from me. i'm sure most of you could do an even better job than me.
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As for healing Consecration, taking what little constructivism Ive seen in response to it, simply make it threatless (the subtext being, suggest improvements rather than making smartass comments). It'd have basically the same utility as Healing Stream or Vampiric Embrace, a little extra healing for the melee group.
i'm honestly not 100% opposed. as devil's advocate i'd say my biggest concern is that this really is a solution to a made up problem or our lack of willingness to help improve the healers we have and will likely result in other, possibly important, aspects of pally healing/tanking being nerfed.
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As for Ret in Raids.... it's a possibility. I've done Karazhan as a green-geared Retadin and come third on the damage charts, but then my group wasnt exactly top-notch either. I suspect it's worth bringing one along for the 2%dmg/3%crit and the extra Blessing, but it's not something I'd stake as a core raid component.
not going there right now.... lol.
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Bottom line, Blizzard's comment suggests that they believe all three specs need new mechanics and/or new approaches; Bodhi may consider them all 'raid-viable', but it doesnt look like Blizzard do.
blizzard didn't say they're not viable. just they want to make some changes in WotLK. they're adding to all classes. if pallies get more attention, thats awesome. if pallies are more fun in all specs i'd be ecstatic. if they add some and nerf our mana efficiency or single target healing or AOE tanking, i'll be very sad. i i look forward to seeing how the new environment in WotLK changes gamelay and pallies. i just don't think answering problems we don't have now at the possible expense are worth it unless blizz does it knowing its necessary in the new instance/raid environment in WotLK.
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and discussions of what we'd like to see turn into what we need because if we get things we only want but don't need, we'd end up having something else nerfed which would be bad for us.
I agree, but at least if we do get what has been suggested it does have some use for us. Look at Shamans right now, 51pts in Resto for Spirit Link, the stupidest ability I think I've ever seen besides that Summon Doomguard thing for locks. Its totally incongruous, costs 51 talents and addresses no class concerns at all. It could be worse for us.
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i'm sorry if i'm argumentative, but it seems to me that you're suggesting making the game super easy just because some people have a harder time with one of the easiest parts of the game
No, for goodness sake. I appreciate your preface there, but please, arguments do not devolve into two completely polar opposites. I said easier, because to be frank the average WoW player's skill level has dropped like a rock ever since the game reached critical mass and started appearing on TV. Since that time every week we get another retarded 12 year old who thinks he's a raidleader. The argument 'find a good healer' becomes secondary when so many people suck. Healing a Heroic like SH in particular is far from easy, and is frankly beyond most people in my experience. It makes what should be a fun game of skill into a terrifying and nerve-wracking game of chance, wondering if Fumbles McStupid over there is going to do his job or not.
My suggestion is to offer new mechanics, not improve old ones to the point of not trying. A reactive heal in particular will be a dramatic improvement simply because it resists burst damage, a Paladin's weakest area, thus helping to create more viable healers out of the gaming population.
To clarify, I am in a T6 guild with a damn finely equipped main and alt, finding a good healer from my guild is easy. However, Id like to be able to accomplish certain bits of content without bugging my guildies for help every day, I'd like to be able to PUG with a reasonable chance of success, and this change will help with that.
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i'm honestly not 100% opposed. as devil's advocate i'd say my biggest concern is that this really is a solution to a made up problem or our lack of willingness to help improve the healers we have and will likely result in other, possibly important, aspects of pally healing/tanking being nerfed.
Fine, I appreciate that, I'm not a developer and I dont know what arcane system of brownie points they use to hand out buffs. I merely suggested an ability, which actually I dont think sucks that badly at all, and that Rogues and Shamans would find very helpful when DPSing. If you like the ability on its own then great. Bodhis doesnt, I dont know why, so I dont care.
Anyway, good times :)
I can see we are quite off the OP topic of AoE heal, but some good things have been brought up. I hope people stop asking for hot's because that should be a druid. I personally dont want to see 10 or so classes all do the same ****, thats no fun.
The best suggestion I have seen is a nature's swiftness type of spell. I dont want to go back on my previous statement, but all classes should bring something unique to the table. A paladin not being able to single target heal the best out of anyone is against its class design. In the expansion, from a healing stand point, I would like to see pallies stay very efficient but get that panic button, or from PvP aspect something to actually let them heal. All other healers can actually heal because they arent CCed, pallies are always CCed minus 12 seconds. IMO druids should not have natures swiftness to combine with healing touch, but should instead have better dot's (well maybe not better, already great). Druids should struggle hard to heal a ton of incoming damage to one target while pallies thrive. However, pallies should struggle to heal a lot of people with less damage where druids should thrive.
Variety is the spice of life...
The best suggestion I have seen is a nature's swiftness type of spell. I dont want to go back on my previous statement, but all classes should bring something unique to the table. A paladin not being able to single target heal the best out of anyone is against its class design. In the expansion, from a healing stand point, I would like to see pallies stay very efficient but get that panic button, or from PvP aspect something to actually let them heal. All other healers can actually heal because they arent CCed, pallies are always CCed minus 12 seconds. IMO druids should not have natures swiftness to combine with healing touch, but should instead have better dot's (well maybe not better, already great). Druids should struggle hard to heal a ton of incoming damage to one target while pallies thrive. However, pallies should struggle to heal a lot of people with less damage where druids should thrive.
Variety is the spice of life...
Sorry, could just be me (I'm not a real pally player, barely past 15) but we do have an instant heal....
Holy shock?
Admittedly not a huge heal, but with some + heal gear wouldn't be too terrible?
Or are the numbers just not stacking up right in my head (very possible)
Or do I not understand + heal properly. + 1 heal = + 1 health healed no?
edit: I should learn to spellcheck before posting
Edited, Jul 14th 2008 8:22am by slightlysober
Holy shock?
Admittedly not a huge heal, but with some + heal gear wouldn't be too terrible?
Or are the numbers just not stacking up right in my head (very possible)
Or do I not understand + heal properly. + 1 heal = + 1 health healed no?
edit: I should learn to spellcheck before posting
Edited, Jul 14th 2008 8:22am by slightlysober
Spells don't get 100% of your bonus healing. They have coefficients that determine the actual +heal the spell receives. For example if a spell had a 25% coefficient and you had 1000 +healing the spell would get an additional +250 healing. If that doesn't answer the question, my mistake :S It's late, lol.
As for Holy Shock: yea it's an instant heal, but most people don't consider it useful enough to mention. I know when I was healing in BT, I rarely used Holy Shock unless there was a lull and I popped one off on a DPS to help top them off. That may just have been my experience though, not sure. I don't like healing and quickly gave that up >.<
As for Holy Shock: yea it's an instant heal, but most people don't consider it useful enough to mention. I know when I was healing in BT, I rarely used Holy Shock unless there was a lull and I popped one off on a DPS to help top them off. That may just have been my experience though, not sure. I don't like healing and quickly gave that up >.<
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