So my guild's main Paladin tank posted an idea for rearranging his talents to put out more threat, and I thought I would repost it here and see what you all thought:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZxhxhx0zGgoxVsx0hcz
Personally if I were to try this out I'd go with Redoubt/Shield Spec instead of Imp Devo and 3/5 Reckoning. Particularly based on his gear, I doubt that Reckoning will be up much to really take advantage of those 3 points at all, and if he's running Sanctity, there's 5 wasted points into improving Devotion Aura. I'm also thinking take one point out of PoJ and fill Improved Judgement.
Here's a link to his Armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bloodhoof&n=Valoran
So, what do you think? Could it work, particularly as they are making the big push to down Kalecgos?
I'm in a static ZA team now, but there are times I am not able to pump out enough threat and some of our DPS has to hold back. I'm looking at this and thinking it might be able to help alleviate some of this issue should I do a respec, but the biggest thing preventing me from just going and trying it out is losing Ardent Defender. I'm doing a LOT of AOE tanking and that talent helps out a bunch: truly a life-saver.
Any ideas or thoughts on the matter would be welcome :)
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The major benefits of the build are all things that a single Ret pally could bring to the raid. While that may not be possible in your ZA group, a Ret is valuable in a 25-man and I usually like to bring one along.
Crusade is interesting. It's like a gimped 1 handed weapon spec for certain types of enemies. Reckoning will not generate a significant amount of extra threat.
Since a Protection Paladin wouldn't run with those ret talents if there was a Ret in the raid, let's assume it's safe to say there are none. That means that unless there are 2 Paladin tanks, you aren't getting Kings. Again, in a Raid there may be enough Holy Paladins to buff you, but in ZA you may have 1 or none. A Holy Pally is in a far better place to keep Light up on you than you are to keep it on yourself while he/she Kings' you.
The loss of Shield Spec (and for some, Redoubt), Kings, Ardent Defender, and AS don't seem worth it to me. In a raid with a Ret pally, you effectively only gain 3% damage. At the cost of a very good threat spell (though a mana hog), slower Judgements, and the loss of threat generated by Ret Aura (multi-target situations especially). In such a situation, the threat difference would be almost nil and a great deal of survivability and utility would have been sacrificed. When there is no Ret Paladin, there would be a small measurable increase in pure-rotation TPS with all the same losses above.
If he is not generating enough threat to beat the clock on Kalecgos, I think he needs to look at other factors before addressing his build. Bringing a Ret Pally, for example.
Crusade is interesting. It's like a gimped 1 handed weapon spec for certain types of enemies. Reckoning will not generate a significant amount of extra threat.
Since a Protection Paladin wouldn't run with those ret talents if there was a Ret in the raid, let's assume it's safe to say there are none. That means that unless there are 2 Paladin tanks, you aren't getting Kings. Again, in a Raid there may be enough Holy Paladins to buff you, but in ZA you may have 1 or none. A Holy Pally is in a far better place to keep Light up on you than you are to keep it on yourself while he/she Kings' you.
The loss of Shield Spec (and for some, Redoubt), Kings, Ardent Defender, and AS don't seem worth it to me. In a raid with a Ret pally, you effectively only gain 3% damage. At the cost of a very good threat spell (though a mana hog), slower Judgements, and the loss of threat generated by Ret Aura (multi-target situations especially). In such a situation, the threat difference would be almost nil and a great deal of survivability and utility would have been sacrificed. When there is no Ret Paladin, there would be a small measurable increase in pure-rotation TPS with all the same losses above.
If he is not generating enough threat to beat the clock on Kalecgos, I think he needs to look at other factors before addressing his build. Bringing a Ret Pally, for example.
That's kinda where my thinking was at too, but I had hoped there was something I had not thought of that would make this more appealing, lol. And I don't think anything I could say would persuade this guy to look elsewhere first before changing to that build. He's pretty hard headed. Well, the whole guild is. They kept asking me to raid Holy, so I said f!@# that and stopped raiding. But, that's neither here nor there.
Not looking necessarily to the proposed build above, but to any reasonable ideas, where could I improve my threat for boss tanking?
We have myself and a Feral Druid for tanks. I tank most everything AOE style and hold threat perfectly fine, while the Druid puts on his DPS gear. The parts where I can't physically take everything all at once he puts on his tank gear and we duo tank (the bears leading to Nalorakk for one). For the bosses that only need one tank (Akil'zon, Hex Lord, Zul'jin) I do the tanking with the Druid in DPS gear, but my threat is not as high as they would like. Our Warlock especially has a hard time and needs to hold back.
Any ideas based on my current build/gear where I can improve to get some more threat and make those fights go faster?
Not looking necessarily to the proposed build above, but to any reasonable ideas, where could I improve my threat for boss tanking?
We have myself and a Feral Druid for tanks. I tank most everything AOE style and hold threat perfectly fine, while the Druid puts on his DPS gear. The parts where I can't physically take everything all at once he puts on his tank gear and we duo tank (the bears leading to Nalorakk for one). For the bosses that only need one tank (Akil'zon, Hex Lord, Zul'jin) I do the tanking with the Druid in DPS gear, but my threat is not as high as they would like. Our Warlock especially has a hard time and needs to hold back.
Any ideas based on my current build/gear where I can improve to get some more threat and make those fights go faster?
Do you find that you need to use pots in ZA at all? Ideally you'd want to take enough damage to sustain a maximum threat rotation for an entire fight, especially so on bosses. It took me a while to find some gear combinations that didn't feel like I was Curator (and having to pot every CD cause the damage just wasn't there). I like to sit at about 18.5k fully buffed for ZA (including a Warrior's shout) and stack up the threat stats. Incidentally, that puts my dodge about 4% lower than yours.
Pieces that you're wearing that can be changed from Survivability to Threat include:
Neck, Shoulders, Chest, Shield, maybe Trinket
After crunching your numbers, with Flask, Crawdad, PW:Fort, Blood Pact, MotW, and Kings (no Shout) you should be running just over 20k HP buffed.
With these changed:
Neck > Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve
Shoulders > Crystalforge Shoulderguards (GIot Knight + 2 Solid Stars)
Chest > Shattrath Protectorate's Breastplate (Defense + Solid Empyrean)
Shield > Sunward Crest (+18 Sta)
Top Trinket > Tome of Fiery Redemption
You sit at 19.4k HP with the same buffs. You end up losing lots of Dodge (down to 21% unbuffed) and a little HP for a gain of about 80 Spell Damage and a huge chunk of Expertise. You could of course push the Spell Damage increase even further at the cost of a few hundred more HP.. well over a 100 increase if you wanted. Also, there's that extra 290 Spell Damage from the trinket that procs from time to time.
Will it stop the locks from threat-capping on you? No... Pre-raid DPS (and even DPS in the first bit of raid gear) has no hope of catching up with a good tank who goes all out. It creates a false sense of ownage, combined with the fact that a Paladin can basically prance right through a heroic like no one's business. By the time that they're sitting in epics though, a good DPSer should be able to take threat any time that they want. Some, like Rogues, Hunters, and Mages can go all-out thanks to threat dumps -- but Warlocks do need to throttle a little bit at times. What you need to do is generate enough threat that they can get through the fight before:
1. The enrage timer
2. The healers go OOM
If you can do that.. you're doing perfect. There is absolutly nothing wrong with not being able to generate more threat than a DPSer going ALL out. DPSers need to learn that there's no need to kill a boss 30 seconds faster when you're already killing him 3 minutes under the enrage timer. You're the tank, you control the fight. This includes the pace. Don't let the DPS try to control the pace for you.
Edited, Jun 20th 2008 11:19am by Losie
Edited, Jun 20th 2008 5:07pm by Losie
Pieces that you're wearing that can be changed from Survivability to Threat include:
Neck, Shoulders, Chest, Shield, maybe Trinket
After crunching your numbers, with Flask, Crawdad, PW:Fort, Blood Pact, MotW, and Kings (no Shout) you should be running just over 20k HP buffed.
With these changed:
Neck > Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve
Shoulders > Crystalforge Shoulderguards (GIot Knight + 2 Solid Stars)
Chest > Shattrath Protectorate's Breastplate (Defense + Solid Empyrean)
Shield > Sunward Crest (+18 Sta)
Top Trinket > Tome of Fiery Redemption
You sit at 19.4k HP with the same buffs. You end up losing lots of Dodge (down to 21% unbuffed) and a little HP for a gain of about 80 Spell Damage and a huge chunk of Expertise. You could of course push the Spell Damage increase even further at the cost of a few hundred more HP.. well over a 100 increase if you wanted. Also, there's that extra 290 Spell Damage from the trinket that procs from time to time.
Will it stop the locks from threat-capping on you? No... Pre-raid DPS (and even DPS in the first bit of raid gear) has no hope of catching up with a good tank who goes all out. It creates a false sense of ownage, combined with the fact that a Paladin can basically prance right through a heroic like no one's business. By the time that they're sitting in epics though, a good DPSer should be able to take threat any time that they want. Some, like Rogues, Hunters, and Mages can go all-out thanks to threat dumps -- but Warlocks do need to throttle a little bit at times. What you need to do is generate enough threat that they can get through the fight before:
1. The enrage timer
2. The healers go OOM
If you can do that.. you're doing perfect. There is absolutly nothing wrong with not being able to generate more threat than a DPSer going ALL out. DPSers need to learn that there's no need to kill a boss 30 seconds faster when you're already killing him 3 minutes under the enrage timer. You're the tank, you control the fight. This includes the pace. Don't let the DPS try to control the pace for you.
Edited, Jun 20th 2008 11:19am by Losie
Edited, Jun 20th 2008 5:07pm by Losie
I seem to have logged out in my boss gear. For trash I use my Justicar Handguards/Legguards/Shoulderguards and that Libram that increases the damage done by my Consecration. I also just got the Bulwark of the Amani Empire that I use during AOE tanking over my Aldori Legacy Defender. I think I swap one of my rings too, but can't remember right off hand.
I generally don't have to pot too much: a couple during Akil'zon's gauntlet, a couple running to Halazzi, but generally that's it until Hex Lord and Zul'jin. For bosses I swap out the aforementioned gear to what is in my Armory now because it seemed that the healers were having a difficult time keeping me alive with all the raid damage going around as well, but that drops my threat quite a bit (losing both Justicar bonuses + some spell damage and lowering my Block).
I'm not too worried about my threat on Hex Lord and Zul'jin, they aren't required for the Timed runs which is what we are working towards :) It is a little low, but we do get them down in a decent time. I think I will look into those pieces you mentioned though and play around with my set up to get more threat out for the Avatar bosses. Our best we were short of a Bear Mount by 8 minutes, and while getting our DPSers better geared is one way to fix this, me being able to pump out more threat will also help to some degree.
EDIT: except for the shoulders and Trinket :( I don't have a way to run Tier 5 at this time, which really sucks, so it's pretty much what I got or Badge/rep gear.
Edited, Jun 20th 2008 5:35pm by Maulgak
I generally don't have to pot too much: a couple during Akil'zon's gauntlet, a couple running to Halazzi, but generally that's it until Hex Lord and Zul'jin. For bosses I swap out the aforementioned gear to what is in my Armory now because it seemed that the healers were having a difficult time keeping me alive with all the raid damage going around as well, but that drops my threat quite a bit (losing both Justicar bonuses + some spell damage and lowering my Block).
I'm not too worried about my threat on Hex Lord and Zul'jin, they aren't required for the Timed runs which is what we are working towards :) It is a little low, but we do get them down in a decent time. I think I will look into those pieces you mentioned though and play around with my set up to get more threat out for the Avatar bosses. Our best we were short of a Bear Mount by 8 minutes, and while getting our DPSers better geared is one way to fix this, me being able to pump out more threat will also help to some degree.
EDIT: except for the shoulders and Trinket :( I don't have a way to run Tier 5 at this time, which really sucks, so it's pretty much what I got or Badge/rep gear.
Edited, Jun 20th 2008 5:35pm by Maulgak
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