Hey, this is just a thought I came up with while comparing DPS of different speccs to each other. The first thing I noticed was actually, that the 40/21/0 specc, that is often thought of as crappy, due to the worse SD-scaling, actually scales darned well with critchance and mana, which both are pretty decent in raid-buffed situations.
Next thing was, that in boss-encounters everything starting at pyro to blastwave isn't actually soo good for raiding, in terms of DPS-increase. So why not give up 1 point in Mind Mastery (like 35SD @ 700 int) and get elemental precision, icy veins and pyroblast? Given a decent critchance and loads of intellect that could actually bring you pretty close to the DPS of 0/50/11 or similar speccs, while not having those brust-damage issues of deep fire on trash pulls and insane DPS with arcane blast spam on short fights.
Of course you actually lose quite some talents in fire, that are useful, but since ppl report, to have too much mana left that couldn't be converted to DMG during the fight, I think Master of Elements isn't an issue, as well as improved scorch, if you're going with other firemages. Burning soul is also handy, but seeing how frostmages can live without it, I do not see why its so important.
I'm not anywhere near good geared for raiding, so I actually didn't run any kind of test, also because I couldn't compare deep fire really well, since that only shines in raid-buffed situations and with a lot of SD, and I don't have too many of those situations, seeing how I'm no raider :p
Icy veins could help sqeezing in about 6 fireballs and instant pyro, while without you'd only be able to do 4 fireball and pyro during AP-phase normally, maybe even better with haste-rating, and haste-procc.
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Groarr wrote:
Burning soul is also handy, but seeing how frostmages can live without it, I do not see why its so important.
Frost mages have their own threat reduction talent that no serious frost build skips, so they don't need Burning Soul. For raids/instances, the pushback protection is useful, but the threat reduction is why you get the talent.
Very true, but with this kind of build you should be able to swich to arcane blast spam as soon as you draw too much aggro, if your remaining mana-pool allows it.
The idea behind it is that since raid-dungeons are never just one sort of fighting, every second fight is rather depending on something else (much burst diregarding mana-cost/longlasting fights where you need to be able to dps as long as possible/mid-ranged fights, where you burn all your mana and try to do as much DPS while still being able to last to the end) and since that is the case, also with trashmobs in between, I concluded, that a specc which covers only one aspect really well will never ever be the best overall-specc. Thats why I came up with it, to allow the mage to do arcane damage with arcane blast, with little threat, and last longer with fire. So the DPS on trash is the best available, while the DPS on bosses is close. Also you must think about the fact, that in average the specc will do less DPS on bosses, unless you do some arcane blasts in between, which should drop your aggro, so you generate less threat anyways.
I know its asking a lot, but I'd be really happy if some bored t6-content mage would give it a shot and later report how it has worked out. Of course this doesn't need to happen, if you find any serious flaws in the logic behind this, but so far I cannot think of any, so I'd like some of you to take it into serious consideration if thats not too much ^^.
The idea behind it is that since raid-dungeons are never just one sort of fighting, every second fight is rather depending on something else (much burst diregarding mana-cost/longlasting fights where you need to be able to dps as long as possible/mid-ranged fights, where you burn all your mana and try to do as much DPS while still being able to last to the end) and since that is the case, also with trashmobs in between, I concluded, that a specc which covers only one aspect really well will never ever be the best overall-specc. Thats why I came up with it, to allow the mage to do arcane damage with arcane blast, with little threat, and last longer with fire. So the DPS on trash is the best available, while the DPS on bosses is close. Also you must think about the fact, that in average the specc will do less DPS on bosses, unless you do some arcane blasts in between, which should drop your aggro, so you generate less threat anyways.
I know its asking a lot, but I'd be really happy if some bored t6-content mage would give it a shot and later report how it has worked out. Of course this doesn't need to happen, if you find any serious flaws in the logic behind this, but so far I cannot think of any, so I'd like some of you to take it into serious consideration if thats not too much ^^.
Post a wowhead link to the build you are thinking of, I may be able to try it on Illidan tonight if I find it won't gimp me too much, although I will need an spriest probably.
Edited, Jun 19th 2008 10:38am by Anobix
Edited, Jun 19th 2008 10:38am by Anobix
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=oi0Vc0fzxIzwZxx0zZMhMho
Arcane blast with aggro reducing talets when you pull aggro with ap and trinket + icy veins followed by instant pyro.
Thats basically what I was thinking of. Customize according to your needs, and try different variations on the rotation. I'd recommend not using one rotation in every situation. Arcane blast spam for trash and other short fights with an instant pyro at the end of arcane power and fire on bosses. Make sure you'll run with 2 locks for cos and coe, I'm unsure weather its smarter to use Flask of pure death or the one witch arcane dmg, but since bosses are more important I'd recommend pure death.
And don't abandon after 1 fail ;) it might pay off to experiment with the rotations more.
Just one question: how much mana/int does a decent mage have with raid-buffs and arcane mind?
Arcane blast with aggro reducing talets when you pull aggro with ap and trinket + icy veins followed by instant pyro.
Thats basically what I was thinking of. Customize according to your needs, and try different variations on the rotation. I'd recommend not using one rotation in every situation. Arcane blast spam for trash and other short fights with an instant pyro at the end of arcane power and fire on bosses. Make sure you'll run with 2 locks for cos and coe, I'm unsure weather its smarter to use Flask of pure death or the one witch arcane dmg, but since bosses are more important I'd recommend pure death.
And don't abandon after 1 fail ;) it might pay off to experiment with the rotations more.
Just one question: how much mana/int does a decent mage have with raid-buffs and arcane mind?
I'm having a hard time understanding the _why_ of this build. First of all, you never build a spec around killing trash, it's all about killing the bosses. Boss fights are about being able to keep up a sustained amount of damage over a long period of time, which gets exponentially harder if you don't have a rotation in place, and are just throwing out spells as you see fit.
So, what would be the rotation of this build? How does it's DPS hold up with the normal builds of 40/21/0 40/0/21 2/48/11, etc?
Also you must think about the fact, that in average the specc will do less DPS on bosses, unless you do some arcane blasts in between, which should drop your aggro, so you generate less threat anyways.
The only way for a Mage to "drop aggro" is Invisibility or dying.
Arcane blast with aggro reducing talets when you pull aggro with ap and trinket + icy veins followed by instant pyro.
If you pull aggro as a Mage, there's only two things you'll be doing: Ice Block or Dying. Switching to another spell makes no sense because you're already on top of the hate list. So these statement of yours doesn't make any sense to me.
Edited, Jun 20th 2008 12:48pm by Taratru
So, what would be the rotation of this build? How does it's DPS hold up with the normal builds of 40/21/0 40/0/21 2/48/11, etc?
Quote:
Also you must think about the fact, that in average the specc will do less DPS on bosses, unless you do some arcane blasts in between, which should drop your aggro, so you generate less threat anyways.
The only way for a Mage to "drop aggro" is Invisibility or dying.
Quote:
Arcane blast with aggro reducing talets when you pull aggro with ap and trinket + icy veins followed by instant pyro.
If you pull aggro as a Mage, there's only two things you'll be doing: Ice Block or Dying. Switching to another spell makes no sense because you're already on top of the hate list. So these statement of yours doesn't make any sense to me.
Edited, Jun 20th 2008 12:48pm by Taratru
Taratru wrote:
I'm having a hard time understanding the _why_ of this build. First of all, you never build a spec around killing trash, it's all about killing the bosses.
Actually, I could see a trash focused spec making sense in doing timed ZA bear runs. Not that I'd use that spec, but I could certainly see it coming in handy.
Quote:
If you pull aggro as a Mage, there's only two things you'll be doing: Ice Block or Dying. Switching to another spell makes no sense because you're already on top of the hate list. So these statement of yours doesn't make any sense to me.
I didn't do too much serious raiding, but if there is one thing I have learned so far it is certainly, that it is smart not to wait until you have outaggroed the tank, but rather take a really short look at your aggro-meter. If you then swich to a spell that creates far less aggro, BEFORE you are dead, yes, this might be an option to drop aggro without sacrificing too much DPS. Didn't think that was hard to figure out -.-
To me actually YOUR statement doesn't make too much sense, since because you mentioned invisibility, the idea of preventative aggro-management shouldn't have been too alien after all.
A) The specc should provide decent DPS, seeing how after you blew invis, you can still manage aggro with arcane blast, unlike deep fire mages, who have to stand there and watch, if they do not wanna risk getting owned before iceblock kicks in (not everyone is that fast).
B) There are also boss-fights, that reqire hard nuke, not every fight is 10 mins, so you could actually swich to arcane blast spam, for far better DPS here.
C) Lasting over the duration of the bossfight should also not be soo hard, since you have arcane mind, meditaion and concentration, all of which are helping at keeping mana, if you intend to last longer. Arcane power IS ofc mana-consuming, but noone is forcing you to use it. So if that would mean not having it on a long fight, thats not too bad if you do far more DPS on shorter fights and on trash...
I'm certainly not trying to say this specc is pure imbaness, and the only thing a mage should ever go for, Its just an idea, saying it sucks, because your imagination is not sufficiant to explore the possibilities, without having ever tried it is IMO not very constructive.
One potential problem that I just thought of, I believe if you pop IV + Fully debuffed AB + Bloodlust then you will break the GCD (it may take one more buff like drums) causiing you to have less dps).
Quote:
One potential problem that I just thought of, I believe if you pop IV + Fully debuffed AB + Bloodlust then you will break the GCD (it may take one more buff like drums) causiing you to have less dps).
That is very likely, a possible solution to this would be to coordinate those CDs in a way that they won't negatively affect each other. Or swich to fireball in that case. It might be intelligent to use fire anyways considering how much mana/sec you'd have to blow with soo much haste. Also I belive you can take huge benefit of arcane power with so much haste stacked, allowing you to shoot a lot more fireballs during the 15 seconds than usual. If I'm not mistaken, those buffs are rarely used at the last 20% of the boss-hp, right? This would anyways affect my opinion in favor of 39/11/11, since the benefit from AP would possibly outweight molten fury.
AB is rather intended to be used on trash, where those CDs won't be used to such a large extent. On the other hand we should first consider if arcane blast spam won't even do more DPS when being capped. Although I somehow doubt it.
The speccing for arcane power might really shine in those short fights where the period for molten fury is very short.
On trash-mobs this specc would truly own. If noone pops any haste-buffs to mess up all the maths, the dps after the first 3 arcane blasts would be insane, counting the pyro at the 15th second of arcane power, and if the mana-pool allows it it should be enough for 2 mobs at very high DPS, with arguably good DPS on short boss-fights, due to the gimped up-time of molten fury for other fire-mages and good DPS on long fights, given you have a good group, granting you a lot of crit-chance. The specc should really shine with much crit% due to your fire-spells critting for 2.45times the original damage instead of 2.1.
one issue with the extremely high mana cost is for most guilds that have most of places on farm (my guild has most of bt and mh on farm status) so we chain pull most fights, I rarely have time to drink with all of the aoe pulls (ditto would be said for a ZA run).
i also debate the motivation of speccing this way for trash dps. The only place where it matters slightly is ZA and there are other ppl whose dps in those short term fights can cover the gap. Personally I do not want to win on trash, plus I am saddled with some other thing I need to be doing other than just dps.... how much dmg I did on trash is the last thing on my mind. Boss is where it matters.
Not sure what spells you're using with this build...fire? frost? I don't like it.
40/0/21 or 40/21/0 if you're shooting for spellpower and mind mastery.
edit- I've also seen 50/0/11 I suppose that could work too.
Edited, Jun 23rd 2008 2:22am by mikelolol
40/0/21 or 40/21/0 if you're shooting for spellpower and mind mastery.
edit- I've also seen 50/0/11 I suppose that could work too.
Edited, Jun 23rd 2008 2:22am by mikelolol
The point behind the specc is actually to use fire, on bosses and arcane blast on trash. It was considered an option by me, since you don't have to sacrifice the DPS-boost of IV, that you won't have with 40/21/0, and in addition be able to make use of the far more efficient fire-tree on longer fights unlike 40/0/21 mages can.
If this specc comes out lower than some sort of deep fire specc on the meter has yet to be proven IMO. Its an attempt, to create a fire-DPS build without sacrificing the possibilitie to spam arcane blast every now and then for better DPS/less aggro.
So far it has in theory some quite interesting options to control aggro better without dropping DPS, and making intelligent use of your mana (If you have too much left just spam arcane blast, to make use of it, and not leave combat with 25% mana left.)
The specc should certainly own trash, and just as I said before there are some things, where the specc has advantages over deep fire, like better use of haste-buffs with arcane power and aggro-control. I'm not entirely convinced this specc would be far inferior to deep fire on bosses.
That pure DPS is all that matterss at bosses, is also not a very good argument, since if that would be true there would be only 1 mage in each raid: for buffing. (OFC this is not entirely true, but you get the point) Mages have DPS-scaling issues, we all know it by now, so don't come with that argument, cuz then you wouldn't have to respecc, but to reroll to maximize DPS -.-
If this specc comes out lower than some sort of deep fire specc on the meter has yet to be proven IMO. Its an attempt, to create a fire-DPS build without sacrificing the possibilitie to spam arcane blast every now and then for better DPS/less aggro.
So far it has in theory some quite interesting options to control aggro better without dropping DPS, and making intelligent use of your mana (If you have too much left just spam arcane blast, to make use of it, and not leave combat with 25% mana left.)
The specc should certainly own trash, and just as I said before there are some things, where the specc has advantages over deep fire, like better use of haste-buffs with arcane power and aggro-control. I'm not entirely convinced this specc would be far inferior to deep fire on bosses.
That pure DPS is all that matterss at bosses, is also not a very good argument, since if that would be true there would be only 1 mage in each raid: for buffing. (OFC this is not entirely true, but you get the point) Mages have DPS-scaling issues, we all know it by now, so don't come with that argument, cuz then you wouldn't have to respecc, but to reroll to maximize DPS -.-
So it seems you have it all figured out, why are you asking us?
To the point, basic logic says specializing in one thing is stronger then trying to sorta maximize 2-3 areas. If you use fire on bosses, doest it need to be proven to you that 47 more points in fire will make fire stronger? Arcane for trash, well that is fine but if your raid is failing on trash you have bigger problems, and still a decent fire mage will beat you on trash with well placed fireblasts (killing blows). The biggest help of an arcane spec pre 2pT5 is the mind mastery boost when you don't have enough spell damage, and post 2pT5 it can finally out dps fire as long as you have huge mana income.
Edited, Jun 23rd 2008 3:16pm by ocyen
To the point, basic logic says specializing in one thing is stronger then trying to sorta maximize 2-3 areas. If you use fire on bosses, doest it need to be proven to you that 47 more points in fire will make fire stronger? Arcane for trash, well that is fine but if your raid is failing on trash you have bigger problems, and still a decent fire mage will beat you on trash with well placed fireblasts (killing blows). The biggest help of an arcane spec pre 2pT5 is the mind mastery boost when you don't have enough spell damage, and post 2pT5 it can finally out dps fire as long as you have huge mana income.
Edited, Jun 23rd 2008 3:16pm by ocyen
Groarr wrote:
The point behind the specc is actually to use fire, on bosses and arcane blast on trash. It was considered an option by me, since you don't have to sacrifice the DPS-boost of IV, that you won't have with 40/21/0, and in addition be able to make use of the far more efficient fire-tree on longer fights unlike 40/0/21 mages can.
If this specc comes out lower than some sort of deep fire specc on the meter has yet to be proven IMO. Its an attempt, to create a fire-DPS build without sacrificing the possibilitie to spam arcane blast every now and then for better DPS/less aggro.
So far it has in theory some quite interesting options to control aggro better without dropping DPS, and making intelligent use of your mana (If you have too much left just spam arcane blast, to make use of it, and not leave combat with 25% mana left.)
The specc should certainly own trash, and just as I said before there are some things, where the specc has advantages over deep fire, like better use of haste-buffs with arcane power and aggro-control. I'm not entirely convinced this specc would be far inferior to deep fire on bosses.
That pure DPS is all that matterss at bosses, is also not a very good argument, since if that would be true there would be only 1 mage in each raid: for buffing. (OFC this is not entirely true, but you get the point) Mages have DPS-scaling issues, we all know it by now, so don't come with that argument, cuz then you wouldn't have to respecc, but to reroll to maximize DPS -.-
If this specc comes out lower than some sort of deep fire specc on the meter has yet to be proven IMO. Its an attempt, to create a fire-DPS build without sacrificing the possibilitie to spam arcane blast every now and then for better DPS/less aggro.
So far it has in theory some quite interesting options to control aggro better without dropping DPS, and making intelligent use of your mana (If you have too much left just spam arcane blast, to make use of it, and not leave combat with 25% mana left.)
The specc should certainly own trash, and just as I said before there are some things, where the specc has advantages over deep fire, like better use of haste-buffs with arcane power and aggro-control. I'm not entirely convinced this specc would be far inferior to deep fire on bosses.
That pure DPS is all that matterss at bosses, is also not a very good argument, since if that would be true there would be only 1 mage in each raid: for buffing. (OFC this is not entirely true, but you get the point) Mages have DPS-scaling issues, we all know it by now, so don't come with that argument, cuz then you wouldn't have to respecc, but to reroll to maximize DPS -.-
i get the idea why you want to use a certain school for certain situations.
I will break down the points where I do not feel is that optimal.
given spellfire set, belt o blastin and boots o blasting gear level without 2 piece T5. 2/48/11 gives more bang per buck, without a ele-shaman and spriest stacking the group (something we do almost all the time now given the chance) any mage with that spec has mana problems. I can be OOM with all cooldowns used at a lurker fight.
the other thing that will be bad is gear optimization. each mage spec has a particular preference to a certain stat. Deep fire requires a hit cap figure that is different from arcane hit cap. I spot a bit more hit even though my main nuke is Arcane Blast as I prefer my frostbolts to be hitting enough times, the fact its binary infuriates me but at least I will not see partials on my crits. Those partial resists on fire spells hurt dps. Given your build, arcane blast has a terrible DPM if I threat cap at a boss fight invis,pot and blast again is much better than switching to arcane which will put me in a worse position later. A fight that I know I ended with maximum effort on my part would be one where my cooldowns are all down and my mana gem is fully consumed. How much mana I have left is a non-issue.
I always aim to ramp up my dps as the fight goes on. Riding the threat cap for long periods of time without actually coming into danger of pulling aggro is something that I tend to do these days. Of course, having played with the same MTs for a while really helps. As a dpser, its really easy to tell where the tank's threat cap is. So far, I have met tanks who fail to keep up with scorch spam or those who allow me to go hard almost all the way unless I do dumb things like getting greedy fireblast.
One way to look at the meter standing is to really look at boss performance. Mages are known to be not so good at trash dps, everyone understands that so excelling at that part but doing sub-par (not that I am saying that your spec will be sub-par) dps on boss is not helping the raid much at all. I have played around with 3 specs at various gear levels so I do know where each spec can go. 40/21 owned me when I was not having the stats for 10/48/11, it shined when I did. 2/48/11 gave me mana issues but allowed me to get more spurts of really high dps in. my current 40/0/21 is fun but I have not tried using that without 2 piece T5.
Thats also one point: you can actually use it as arcane-DPS specc with the option of doing more efficient DPS with fire, that is hopefully not lacking too much of the DPS of deep fire. Also the mentioned haste-effects will negatively affect deep arcane speccs, where you have to swich to AM to not lose DPS, and I believe fireball with the higher crit-coefficient will maybe come out on top of AM, given a decent crit-rate. After all you're sacrificing 1 single point compared to an arcane-DPS specc, with the option of far more efficient fire-DPS, which should be still decent because it is backed up by IV and 39 points in arcane.
Just as I said: Its just and idea, but it might have some potetial after all, and thus should be tried out by someone, since theorycraft and half-baken arguments/ideas are just not enough to prove this specc bad or useful IMO. I'm not geared to try it, but some of you might be, so I'd apreciate if someone could possibly try it out.
Just as I said: Its just and idea, but it might have some potetial after all, and thus should be tried out by someone, since theorycraft and half-baken arguments/ideas are just not enough to prove this specc bad or useful IMO. I'm not geared to try it, but some of you might be, so I'd apreciate if someone could possibly try it out.
hmm, well ptrs are up, that is a possible time to do some dr. boom testing...
The only thing that hasn't been explicitly proven so far is which is better imp scorching or IV, which is the heart of your spec you are proposing. This is pretty much a no-brainer. In a 6+ min fight 15% increased damage >> then 40 sec of 20% haste (especially with no Molten Fury range to exploit). All other aspects of a deep arcane buffed fire spec have been tested, tried, and examined. The 40/21/0 spec has been shown to be a good choice for low gear levels with the int/spell damage boost it gives. But once your gear supports 850-900 spell damage, deep fire takes off and even more so the farther you stack spell damage.
I don't think you will find anyone here willing to spend 100 gold on a respec to "test" what has already been done. I made the switch from an arcane/fire build to deep fire so I am not theory crafting but rather remembering what it was like.
Edit: The arcane-trash killing was skipped because a couple other people already gave good advice in regards to it.
Edited, Jun 24th 2008 12:39pm by ocyen
I don't think you will find anyone here willing to spend 100 gold on a respec to "test" what has already been done. I made the switch from an arcane/fire build to deep fire so I am not theory crafting but rather remembering what it was like.
Edit: The arcane-trash killing was skipped because a couple other people already gave good advice in regards to it.
Edited, Jun 24th 2008 12:39pm by ocyen
Yes, but I also kinda need to find another mage with fire-specc to give imp scorch debuff for fair comparison.
BTW, isn't it impossible to enchant and gem gear on PTR? If so, that would influence the test in favor of 39/11/11 due to the better SD scaling of deep fire.
Anyways, I tried some little simulation on my calculator, and found out, that ignoring IV, molten fury, AP, POM and combustion, the 39/11/11 specc would at a realistic base critchance of 23% lagg about 80 stunning DPS behind deep fire. With a boomkin and and ele shammy, and buffed with molten armor (11% more critchance) this difference is shrinking to about 50 DPS, reducing to 0 difference at 51% critchance (unreachable if I'm informed right) this difference is continously shrinking with increased critchance. This is assuming you are flasked up and well fed+ have oil on weapon (145 SD alltogether), have 1200 base damage, 700 raid-buffed int and a SD totem is buffing you.
You might notice, that the SD and buffs you're using are chosen pretty optimistically, so due to the better scaling with empowered fireball the whole calculation would change in favor of 39/11/11 if you have worse raid-buffed SD.
Which specc comes out on top is most likely decided which talents are better for DPS increase, so the shorter the fights are (less time for molten fury) the better 39/11/11 will actually perform. Likewise with haste-buffs and AP: the more you can get out of AP without getting killed, the better for ur DPS.
Somewhere around 50 DPS difference isn't soo bad, considering you will do far better DPS on trash and nuking-fights. The rotation decides it all :P + it has still to be proven to me, that the talents from arcane cannot close the gap between the speccs.
BTW, isn't it impossible to enchant and gem gear on PTR? If so, that would influence the test in favor of 39/11/11 due to the better SD scaling of deep fire.
Anyways, I tried some little simulation on my calculator, and found out, that ignoring IV, molten fury, AP, POM and combustion, the 39/11/11 specc would at a realistic base critchance of 23% lagg about 80 stunning DPS behind deep fire. With a boomkin and and ele shammy, and buffed with molten armor (11% more critchance) this difference is shrinking to about 50 DPS, reducing to 0 difference at 51% critchance (unreachable if I'm informed right) this difference is continously shrinking with increased critchance. This is assuming you are flasked up and well fed+ have oil on weapon (145 SD alltogether), have 1200 base damage, 700 raid-buffed int and a SD totem is buffing you.
You might notice, that the SD and buffs you're using are chosen pretty optimistically, so due to the better scaling with empowered fireball the whole calculation would change in favor of 39/11/11 if you have worse raid-buffed SD.
Which specc comes out on top is most likely decided which talents are better for DPS increase, so the shorter the fights are (less time for molten fury) the better 39/11/11 will actually perform. Likewise with haste-buffs and AP: the more you can get out of AP without getting killed, the better for ur DPS.
Somewhere around 50 DPS difference isn't soo bad, considering you will do far better DPS on trash and nuking-fights. The rotation decides it all :P + it has still to be proven to me, that the talents from arcane cannot close the gap between the speccs.
Quote:
The only thing that hasn't been explicitly proven so far is which is better imp scorching or IV, which is the heart of your spec you are proposing. This is pretty much a no-brainer. In a 6+ min fight 15% increased damage >> then 40 sec of 20% haste (especially with no Molten Fury range to exploit). All other aspects of a deep arcane buffed fire spec have been tested, tried, and examined. The 40/21/0 spec has been shown to be a good choice for low gear levels with the int/spell damage boost it gives. But once your gear supports 850-900 spell damage, deep fire takes off and even more so the farther you stack spell damage.
You ofc WILL be running with other firemages, thus your damage WILL get the 15% increase. Just like 40/0/21 mages need a deep frostie for winter'S chill.
I know it causes work, but please read the whole thing before posting.
*edit* yes, it is better, but shown in my post above (In case I didn't ***** up) even with pretty optimistically chosen SD its only 80-50 DPS difference, decreasing with decreasing SD, and increasing crit %
Edited, Jun 24th 2008 12:58pm by Groarr
Quote:
You ofc WILL be running with other firemages, thus your damage WILL get the 15% increase. Just like 40/0/21 mages need a deep frostie for winter'S chill.
I know it causes work, but please read the whole thing before posting.
I know it causes work, but please read the whole thing before posting.
You added that 12 min after my post.
From www.manoutoftime.org. Lhivera is considered one the best theory crafters/number crunchers for Mages in the game.
Both specs are with an end of 1200 spell damage and 33% crit with molten armor on.
For a 2/48/3 spec:
Dmg/Sec Spell/Rotation Threat/Sec
1,739.58 Fireball w/IV+MF) 1,565.63
1,452.40 Fire Blast 1,307.16
1,451.18 Fireball w/IV 1,306.06
1,449.65 Fireball (w/MF) 1,304.69
1,435.90 Fireball x8 / Scorch x1 (w/MF) 1,292.31
1,275.63 Fireball x8 / Scorch x1 (w/MF+IV avg'd) 1,148.07
1,209.32 Fireball 1,088.39
1,206.26 Arcane Blast / spammed (w/MF) 723.75
1,196.59 Fireball x8 / Scorch x1 1,076.93
1,005.21 Arcane Blast / spammed 603.13
992.88 Scorch 893.59
755.36 Pyroblast 679.82
603.13 Arcane Blast / single cast 361.88
578.30 Arcane Missiles 346.98
546.16 Frostbolt 546.16
Dmg/Mana Spell/Rotation
9.07 Fireball
With a Arcane Pyro spec:
Dmg/Sec Spell/Rotation Threat/Sec
1,552.1 Arcane Blast / spammed w/AP 931.27
1,193.93 Arcane Blast / spammed 716.36
1,113.49 Fire Blast 1,113.49
1,002.27 Arcane Missiles w/AP 601.36
889.65 Arc Blast x3/Arc Msls x1/Scorch x1 w/AP avg'd 571.83
876.14 Fireball 876.14
864.12 Arc Blast x3/Arc Msls x1/Scorch x1 556.53
770.98 Arcane Missiles 462.59
761.20 Scorch 761.20
716.36 Arcane Blast / single cast 429.82
608.51 Frostbolt 608.51
597.37 Pyroblast 597.37
Dmg/Mana Spell/Rotation
7.61 Fireball
Not counting Molten Fury, PoM/Pyro, or IV. He shows a 333 DPS difference which is considerable. And it is better DPM.
Edited, Jun 24th 2008 3:26pm by ocyen
Both specs are with an end of 1200 spell damage and 33% crit with molten armor on.
For a 2/48/3 spec:
Dmg/Sec Spell/Rotation Threat/Sec
1,739.58 Fireball w/IV+MF) 1,565.63
1,452.40 Fire Blast 1,307.16
1,451.18 Fireball w/IV 1,306.06
1,449.65 Fireball (w/MF) 1,304.69
1,435.90 Fireball x8 / Scorch x1 (w/MF) 1,292.31
1,275.63 Fireball x8 / Scorch x1 (w/MF+IV avg'd) 1,148.07
1,209.32 Fireball 1,088.39
1,206.26 Arcane Blast / spammed (w/MF) 723.75
1,196.59 Fireball x8 / Scorch x1 1,076.93
1,005.21 Arcane Blast / spammed 603.13
992.88 Scorch 893.59
755.36 Pyroblast 679.82
603.13 Arcane Blast / single cast 361.88
578.30 Arcane Missiles 346.98
546.16 Frostbolt 546.16
Dmg/Mana Spell/Rotation
9.07 Fireball
With a Arcane Pyro spec:
Dmg/Sec Spell/Rotation Threat/Sec
1,552.1 Arcane Blast / spammed w/AP 931.27
1,193.93 Arcane Blast / spammed 716.36
1,113.49 Fire Blast 1,113.49
1,002.27 Arcane Missiles w/AP 601.36
889.65 Arc Blast x3/Arc Msls x1/Scorch x1 w/AP avg'd 571.83
876.14 Fireball 876.14
864.12 Arc Blast x3/Arc Msls x1/Scorch x1 556.53
770.98 Arcane Missiles 462.59
761.20 Scorch 761.20
716.36 Arcane Blast / single cast 429.82
608.51 Frostbolt 608.51
597.37 Pyroblast 597.37
Dmg/Mana Spell/Rotation
7.61 Fireball
Not counting Molten Fury, PoM/Pyro, or IV. He shows a 333 DPS difference which is considerable. And it is better DPM.
Edited, Jun 24th 2008 3:26pm by ocyen
Also, you can't really say "ofc you will have another fire mage" in many upper tier raiding guilds they only bring one mage, sometimes two, but that other one may go heavy arcane for straight arcane blast spec with mana regen from frostbolts.
Quote:
You ofc WILL be running with other firemages, thus your damage WILL get the 15% increase. Just like 40/0/21 mages need a deep frostie for winter'S chill.
I know it causes work, but please read the whole thing before posting.
You added that 12 min after my post.
I know it causes work, but please read the whole thing before posting.
You added that 12 min after my post.
Now scroll up, and carefully read my very first post.
Well, I kind of doubt, that the DPS calculations are right. 1200 dmg+ and 800something DPS? he must have left out some other talents in this calculation, sorry. (Ofc I can be wrong, but even without counting the additional DMG from arcane, and also ignoring the 3% critbonus I calculated higher DPS -.-)
Nihilum: 3 mages, all fire last time I checked.
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