Hey,
it's not only intended for Pala, but as Holy Pala I've troubles with BG. So what's the problem I'm talking about?
People don't want to cooperate in BGs.
They let me (top 1,2 healer in BGs) sit as duck on node and rush away...
Or they abandon node without any explanation...
Or another example is that always in AB there is some "clever" alliance toon who tries to be first at Farm (I'm Alliance player)...
My initial idea was to setup the right once we enter BG some rules and groups accordingly, but who cares about rules. :)
How to make people cooperate? What is your experience with this? Any hints except premades (hard to get at 49 lvl) are welcomed.
Just as an examples:
- I asked hunter to stay on node and it turned to "Im not here to stand and do nothing" and ended by he ignoring me :) I was polite... :(
- Another example is when we worked well together with few ppl in BG we turned almost lost BG to win one...
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- How to make ppl cooperate at BG?
How to make ppl cooperate at BG?Follow
First - You can't. That's like asking how to make PUGs good. They will either be good or bad. You have very little ability to change it. Most of the responses will tell you to get a Pre-Made Group. As that is impossible for me, here are a few things I've done to help BG.
1. Talk. /BG - Announce things like Incoming, They are at X, or I intend to take Y, who's with me.
2. Announce yourself as a healer. My Paly is a healer in BG and a tank in PVE. If you say, I'm here to heal, who's the runner/FC/Offense - Usually they reply - They like heals!
3. The simple power of suggestion. People are stupid. In BG - just say - I'm going to X. You'd be surprised how many people follow. (You know how no one wants to mark in Instances?)
4. Be reasonable - I have jumped into BG where we do great. I continue to jump back into the first available after a win. If I get into a train wreck of a team - I jump on another toon. No need to keep trying to get into BG with retards.
5. This is a big one... FAILURE IS AN OPTION. When it's 2/0 in WSG. When your team can't mount a defense and half your group is X6 or lower. LET THEM WIN. Get your honor and get out. Don't turtle, don't slow them down, just get your loser honor and get out. 30 minutes for loser honor is time wasted.
1. Talk. /BG - Announce things like Incoming, They are at X, or I intend to take Y, who's with me.
2. Announce yourself as a healer. My Paly is a healer in BG and a tank in PVE. If you say, I'm here to heal, who's the runner/FC/Offense - Usually they reply - They like heals!
3. The simple power of suggestion. People are stupid. In BG - just say - I'm going to X. You'd be surprised how many people follow. (You know how no one wants to mark in Instances?)
4. Be reasonable - I have jumped into BG where we do great. I continue to jump back into the first available after a win. If I get into a train wreck of a team - I jump on another toon. No need to keep trying to get into BG with retards.
5. This is a big one... FAILURE IS AN OPTION. When it's 2/0 in WSG. When your team can't mount a defense and half your group is X6 or lower. LET THEM WIN. Get your honor and get out. Don't turtle, don't slow them down, just get your loser honor and get out. 30 minutes for loser honor is time wasted.
How do you make people cooperate in BGs? Simple, and it's only one step:
/roll Horde
Seriously though, take the advice of the poster above me, just don't feel bad when it fails, because it will, probably more often then not. Not because it's bad advice, but because you're Alliance =/
/roll Horde
Seriously though, take the advice of the poster above me, just don't feel bad when it fails, because it will, probably more often then not. Not because it's bad advice, but because you're Alliance =/
you need to understand that the same strategy will not work for every team in every BG, unless you are rolling premade. a typical setup in AB is ST/LM/BS with 5 at each. this makes sense to most people and seams sound. then the 10 horde steamroller comes and 5-nodes you back to the GY.
the main issue comes when conflicting strategies prevent any progress. once things start to go astray, a bad team will split efforts and lose focus. a good, consistent team will keep mobile and be able to recover from most threats.
i dont understand how you can be top healer while healing no one. a pally can call for backup and hold a node til the support arrives. most players in BG are there for the win. if they scatter as the threat is rolling in, in their experience they may feel overwhelmed and defense may be futile.
consider that too many games are lost from over-protection. if 3 people are at the mines for 15 mins without a single griever and you are losing, it may be time to go where the fight is(especially as a healer). like i said, staying mobile will allow your team to be at any node within seconds to squash any threat.
great advice.
horrible. if you want to imply some kind of command then do it right. a simple strategy before the start will get everyone focused. alot of players create a game plan macro and spam it before the game starts...very effective when you stick with it.
probably the worst advice. if you want to grind honor and badges get a premade. PUG BGs are a way to compete on a dynamic playing field. if you are intentionally going to make your team lose, be a man and leave the BG. i've won plenty of BGs from near-blowouts and have seen the other teams win similarly. sometimes it take the right people to leave and the right ones to arrive. if you've ever said "Alliance always loses" then guess what...apparently they always lose when you are there. cuz i say "Alliance usually wins".
the main issue comes when conflicting strategies prevent any progress. once things start to go astray, a bad team will split efforts and lose focus. a good, consistent team will keep mobile and be able to recover from most threats.
Quote:
They let me (top 1,2 healer in BGs) sit as duck on node and rush away...
i dont understand how you can be top healer while healing no one. a pally can call for backup and hold a node til the support arrives. most players in BG are there for the win. if they scatter as the threat is rolling in, in their experience they may feel overwhelmed and defense may be futile.
Quote:
Or they abandon node without any explanation...
consider that too many games are lost from over-protection. if 3 people are at the mines for 15 mins without a single griever and you are losing, it may be time to go where the fight is(especially as a healer). like i said, staying mobile will allow your team to be at any node within seconds to squash any threat.
Quote:
1. Talk. /BG - Announce things like Incoming, They are at X, or I intend to take Y, who's with me.
2. Announce yourself as a healer. My Paly is a healer in BG and a tank in PVE. If you say, I'm here to heal, who's the runner/FC/Offense - Usually they reply - They like heals!
2. Announce yourself as a healer. My Paly is a healer in BG and a tank in PVE. If you say, I'm here to heal, who's the runner/FC/Offense - Usually they reply - They like heals!
great advice.
Quote:
3. The simple power of suggestion. People are stupid. In BG - just say - I'm going to X. You'd be surprised how many people follow. (You know how no one wants to mark in Instances?)
horrible. if you want to imply some kind of command then do it right. a simple strategy before the start will get everyone focused. alot of players create a game plan macro and spam it before the game starts...very effective when you stick with it.
Quote:
4. Be reasonable - I have jumped into BG where we do great. I continue to jump back into the first available after a win. If I get into a train wreck of a team - I jump on another toon. No need to keep trying to get into BG with retards.
5. This is a big one... FAILURE IS AN OPTION. When it's 2/0 in WSG. When your team can't mount a defense and half your group is X6 or lower. LET THEM WIN. Get your honor and get out. Don't turtle, don't slow them down, just get your loser honor and get out. 30 minutes for loser honor is time wasted.
5. This is a big one... FAILURE IS AN OPTION. When it's 2/0 in WSG. When your team can't mount a defense and half your group is X6 or lower. LET THEM WIN. Get your honor and get out. Don't turtle, don't slow them down, just get your loser honor and get out. 30 minutes for loser honor is time wasted.
probably the worst advice. if you want to grind honor and badges get a premade. PUG BGs are a way to compete on a dynamic playing field. if you are intentionally going to make your team lose, be a man and leave the BG. i've won plenty of BGs from near-blowouts and have seen the other teams win similarly. sometimes it take the right people to leave and the right ones to arrive. if you've ever said "Alliance always loses" then guess what...apparently they always lose when you are there. cuz i say "Alliance usually wins".
tommyguns wrote:
if you are intentionally going to make your team lose, be a man and leave the BG. i've won plenty of BGs from near-blowouts and have seen the other teams win similarly. sometimes it take the right people to leave and the right ones to arrive. if you've ever said "Alliance always loses" then guess what...apparently they always lose when you are there. cuz i say "Alliance usually wins".
Interesting. i used to say "alliance always loses" i rerolled horde, and now i say "alliance always loses". What do you make of that?
Bosruk's advice is solid for a casual who doesnt premade. psh, on my BG premades are worse honor/hour for horde. queue times are insane if you are a premade and chances are you get pitted against a premade which is much worse than pug vs pug.
7 posts
Thanks for advice. I'll try macro plan as this is really something what might help at this point. And of course say I'm healer might help very much. :P
I kind of disagree with letting our side lose. It of course depends on targets as tommyguns mentioned - if you grind honor, then its not good idea to go PUG. Imaging you are in premade and you are running against premade. You are slowly loosing. Does it mean that you will leave or let the other team win? I don't think so...
Concerning overdefending - imagine scenario:
All people leaves node so I'll stay to defend and report inc. It make sense - rather to have healer to report then noone. But that's problem as you are depending two things - a) team have enough healers to support offence and b) help will come when you call for. Both are fail options as there is usually not enough healers and people are not going to help. That is my exp so far. From that implies do not let healer defend node. :P
I kind of disagree with letting our side lose. It of course depends on targets as tommyguns mentioned - if you grind honor, then its not good idea to go PUG. Imaging you are in premade and you are running against premade. You are slowly loosing. Does it mean that you will leave or let the other team win? I don't think so...
Concerning overdefending - imagine scenario:
All people leaves node so I'll stay to defend and report inc. It make sense - rather to have healer to report then noone. But that's problem as you are depending two things - a) team have enough healers to support offence and b) help will come when you call for. Both are fail options as there is usually not enough healers and people are not going to help. That is my exp so far. From that implies do not let healer defend node. :P
tukanovo wrote:
Imaging you are in premade and you are running against premade. You are slowly loosing. Does it mean that you will leave or let the other team win? I don't think so...
real premade farm teams do this: queue up for multiple battlegrounds and see if they get matched up against a premade. if they do, they ditch and go for a premade vs pug game. There's less honor in that imo.
Quote:
Concerning overdefending - imagine scenario:
All people leaves node so I'll stay to defend and report inc. It make sense - rather to have healer to report then noone. But that's problem as you are depending two things - a) team have enough healers to support offence and b) help will come when you call for. Both are fail options as there is usually not enough healers and people are not going to help. That is my exp so far. From that implies do not let healer defend node. :P
All people leaves node so I'll stay to defend and report inc. It make sense - rather to have healer to report then noone. But that's problem as you are depending two things - a) team have enough healers to support offence and b) help will come when you call for. Both are fail options as there is usually not enough healers and people are not going to help. That is my exp so far. From that implies do not let healer defend node. :P
And i ***** and moan whenever i get put on D. its downright retarded. A competent healer (very rare from what ive seen) in BGs will win the game, as long as they have somebody to heal.
Scholar
17 posts
Getting people to cooperate in battlegrounds is very much like herding cats.
Lots of running and shouting, while very little is accomplished.
Run premades if you are seeking coordination, otherwise you will find that if there
are 20 people, there will be 20 agendas.
I actually find that recently the only time we can get a Pug
to do anything is when some jerk decides, well we are going to lose
anyway, lets all strip and dance. You always get 7 or 8 folks who
fall right in line then...weird
Lokaria
Ravenholdt
Lots of running and shouting, while very little is accomplished.
Run premades if you are seeking coordination, otherwise you will find that if there
are 20 people, there will be 20 agendas.
I actually find that recently the only time we can get a Pug
to do anything is when some jerk decides, well we are going to lose
anyway, lets all strip and dance. You always get 7 or 8 folks who
fall right in line then...weird
Lokaria
Ravenholdt
ME:
Quote:
Quote:
4. Be reasonable - I have jumped into BG where we do great. I continue to jump back into the first available after a win. If I get into a train wreck of a team - I jump on another toon. No need to keep trying to get into BG with retards.
5. This is a big one... FAILURE IS AN OPTION. When it's 2/0 in WSG. When your team can't mount a defense and half your group is X6 or lower. LET THEM WIN. Get your honor and get out. Don't turtle, don't slow them down, just get your loser honor and get out. 30 minutes for loser honor is time wasted.
4. Be reasonable - I have jumped into BG where we do great. I continue to jump back into the first available after a win. If I get into a train wreck of a team - I jump on another toon. No need to keep trying to get into BG with retards.
5. This is a big one... FAILURE IS AN OPTION. When it's 2/0 in WSG. When your team can't mount a defense and half your group is X6 or lower. LET THEM WIN. Get your honor and get out. Don't turtle, don't slow them down, just get your loser honor and get out. 30 minutes for loser honor is time wasted.
Tommyguns:
Quote:
probably the worst advice. if you want to grind honor and badges get a premade. PUG BGs are a way to compete on a dynamic playing field. if you are intentionally going to make your team lose, be a man and leave the BG. i've won plenty of BGs from near-blowouts and have seen the other teams win similarly. sometimes it take the right people to leave and the right ones to arrive. if you've ever said "Alliance always loses" then guess what...apparently they always lose when you are there. cuz i say "Alliance usually wins".
I gotta disagree on this one. It's a good rule if employed correctly. Here's why - and I've seen it from both sides.
-I was in WSG. We had about half the raid leave. You could see them pop up -- 'so-and-so' has left the raid. Horde goes 2 captures up. 2/0 them. So - now we have have a decision to make. Do we go full defense - Because we had (This was a while ago - so I'm not 100% sure) a few druids, a shammy, me as a paly, and one mage who was low for the 39 bracket. We just didn't have the burst damage to knock out their FC if he had any sort of help/heals. Several people just announced to let them take the flag.
Why? Because we could have mounted a defense. We could have let it drag on. Heck - we could have won if we got lucky or they got stupid. Instead, within 2 minutes the score box popped up, we got some honor and got outta there. Most of us re-formed and signed up for the next BG.
Look - if it's 1/1 or 2/1 or in some way reasonable - you should stick it out. I don't like bots or people farming honor by being jerks. However, just like an instance run - If you take too long to do something - it's a problem.
We lost in about 2 minutes. Pretty much the time it takes for the flag to respawn, a runner to grab it, and then run it back. We got some honor. We could have played for another 30 minutes.
Without using too much math.
2 minutes to lose a losing fight = X honor
30 minutes to win a losing fight =/= 15X honor
(My thinking being efficiency here.)
Assuming a Game takes 30 minutes (Which is probably on the mid/short range) I could get my losing honor, then start a new game - Which I might even win. All told - it's more honor.
Even my softball team at work has a mercy rule. Look, if you're down by >15 -- you aren't coming back. It's hot, the beer's cold, let's get outta here...
I think that AB is even worse. Reason being - that there literally is a point at which it is almost a mathmatical certainty that one team will win/lose. At least in WSG winning requires a runner to take an action. In AB - the dominant team just has to defend.
Look - From an under-dog standpoint, you never give up. But in most BG - most people are trying to get Honor and the smart thing to do is get it as quick as possible. (Plus - if we were all Twink'd out and actually running for the sole enjoyment of the BG - We wouldn't be losing so bad...)
if we are in the 39 bracket, why are we grinding honor? when i twink, i play for the sake of playing.
which brings up my pet peeve of all BGs: Gear up or get out!
in sub-70 BGs, you will get 1-shotted by a twink if not geared. at 70 you are just being a liability to the team and you will NOT have fun. "i'm here to gear up" is the lamest excuse. you wouldn't show up for raid in greens, yet playing with strangers in BGs is a free ticket to ride the coattails of more dedicated players.
"free" BG gear has ruined BG itself.
which brings up my pet peeve of all BGs: Gear up or get out!
in sub-70 BGs, you will get 1-shotted by a twink if not geared. at 70 you are just being a liability to the team and you will NOT have fun. "i'm here to gear up" is the lamest excuse. you wouldn't show up for raid in greens, yet playing with strangers in BGs is a free ticket to ride the coattails of more dedicated players.
"free" BG gear has ruined BG itself.
How then are people supposed to get gear for PvP without, you know, PvPing? Sure there are the rep sets now, but I for one would be better off in my current PvE gear on any toon then looking to that crap.
Then there's some people who never get to take certain toons to raids/instances because their tank or their healer is always needed, so what do they do? They go PvP to get gear.
Saying that, "I'm here to gear up," is a lame excuse is, frankly, lame. There are people who their only real option to get gear is through PvP, and who are you to judge the case for them? I'm lucky that I have some friends who will gladly take my Enhancment Shaman to raids/Heroics, but it was not long ago this wasn't the case. And, do you know how hard it is to find a group as an Enhancement Shaman? My only option was PvP, which I hate, so I didn't do it. Thus my gear just sat stagnant, going nowhere.
Blah ... /end rant
Then there's some people who never get to take certain toons to raids/instances because their tank or their healer is always needed, so what do they do? They go PvP to get gear.
Saying that, "I'm here to gear up," is a lame excuse is, frankly, lame. There are people who their only real option to get gear is through PvP, and who are you to judge the case for them? I'm lucky that I have some friends who will gladly take my Enhancment Shaman to raids/Heroics, but it was not long ago this wasn't the case. And, do you know how hard it is to find a group as an Enhancement Shaman? My only option was PvP, which I hate, so I didn't do it. Thus my gear just sat stagnant, going nowhere.
Blah ... /end rant
I casually PVP. There are a few nice trinkets and weapons that help me lvl or PVE. Most of the armor is too much effort or very PVP specific - and, therefore inferior in PVE.
Also - how does one gear up - without PVPing. Most people (aka - everyone who isn't twinking) think that twinks ruined PVP more than casual players. Look - twinking is fine and fair and legal. You break no rules, but it ends up causing a lot of conflict. I agree that X7 is the lowest you enter a BG, I agree that everyone should be in greens or blues. You shouldn't get /rude for not being equipped in Green/Blue and Enchanted - The "Gear up or get out" is BS.
If you're a hard-core PVP guy - cool - run a premade. Don't join the "Next Available" and ***** at the average PVP'er. You're right - you wouldn't run a raid with greens. However - you don't PUG raids. I've never seen in /4 chat, "Fire Mage - LF24M, we're going to take down Illidan" (In general - I know some people have Pug'd Kara...) If you jump into a PUG @ WSG or AB in the mid lvl (aka NOT 19, 29 or 70) you should expect mostly average PVPers and an odd twink or two. The twinks are there to win and rack up kills. The average player is looking for a good time and maybe a few points for gear.
Look - the OP is running PUGs. He specifically asked for hints at finding a Pre-Made.
Your comments don't address his question. Your pet peeve is common for twinks. Here's my pet peeve --- If you're that good a twink - you can find a premade that could use you. If you're running PVP for the sake of playing - you shouldn't want to be 1-shotting non-twinks. You should be wanting a good hard fight.
Also - how does one gear up - without PVPing. Most people (aka - everyone who isn't twinking) think that twinks ruined PVP more than casual players. Look - twinking is fine and fair and legal. You break no rules, but it ends up causing a lot of conflict. I agree that X7 is the lowest you enter a BG, I agree that everyone should be in greens or blues. You shouldn't get /rude for not being equipped in Green/Blue and Enchanted - The "Gear up or get out" is BS.
If you're a hard-core PVP guy - cool - run a premade. Don't join the "Next Available" and ***** at the average PVP'er. You're right - you wouldn't run a raid with greens. However - you don't PUG raids. I've never seen in /4 chat, "Fire Mage - LF24M, we're going to take down Illidan" (In general - I know some people have Pug'd Kara...) If you jump into a PUG @ WSG or AB in the mid lvl (aka NOT 19, 29 or 70) you should expect mostly average PVPers and an odd twink or two. The twinks are there to win and rack up kills. The average player is looking for a good time and maybe a few points for gear.
Look - the OP is running PUGs. He specifically asked for hints at finding a Pre-Made.
Your comments don't address his question. Your pet peeve is common for twinks. Here's my pet peeve --- If you're that good a twink - you can find a premade that could use you. If you're running PVP for the sake of playing - you shouldn't want to be 1-shotting non-twinks. You should be wanting a good hard fight.
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but I for one would be better off in my current PvE gear
bingo. the blues and even purples you get from leveling/instancing to 70 or craftables sets can usually be sufficient for starting up BGs. AH greens, not so much. you ever see a weird looking player with different color pieces? inspect him and you'll see "of the champion" mixed with "of the physician". i dont know why we need to separate pvp and pve with such dicrimination. each aspect of the game can/should compliment the others.
tommyguns wrote:
you ever see a weird looking player with different color pieces? inspect him and you'll see "of the champion" mixed with "of the physician".
That's not PvP exclusive, that's instancing as well. Noob players shouldn't be confused with those I described above.
Quote:
That's not PvP exclusive, that's instancing as well. Noob players shouldn't be confused with those I described above.
very true. however, you cannot control the makeup of the group as you can in instancing, save premades. with the influx of the "gear up from BGs" mantra of late, everyone and his cousin is jumping into BGs underprepared(or prepared to lose). also, unlike instancing, you cant just plug along and come out with a win. i will note: horde are generally better geared than alliance, or at least not as poorly geared. alliance too often will have just the right number of undergeared players to offset the well-geared ones. its like forcing the varsity basketball team to include a few special ed kids on the team.
arena was a move in the right direction with the rating system. here you can acquire your gear but you wont be able to compete with the big boys until you are ready. i personally prefer the large team play of BGs over the duel type of arena. maybe there will be a blend of both sometime in the future.
You need to treat BGs in the same way as you would instances. If you do an instance run with a group made up entirely of randoms (a pug) then chances are you will wipe a lot and not have fun (occasionally you'll do quite well) make a group entirely out of guildies/mates and you'll probably pwn the instance in short order. The middle ground in that is bringing one or two people you know and trust and pug the rest, in that case you'll probably do quite well, but occasionally one n00b you pick up will ***** it up.
Its exactly the same in battlegrounds. On my battlegroup the horde usually win, and as a consequence are slightly better geared than the alliance. However they are not good players and not that well geared (there are always exceptions, but if you think the people who are doing BGs tend to be scrubs looking for their free S1/S2, you see the vast majority are), my 2v2 partner and I are quite capable of turning an eots or ab game on its head, we can steamroller through one or two horde in short order to quick cap bases, and we can take on and beat 4 or even 5 horde on our own, so in an ab game we will either run around capping bases with impunity or draw in a disproportionate amount of horde and hold them up for a long time, either way usually results in the alliance winning.
So I put it to you, if you want to win in BGs, bring a friend or two and work as a team, be it arena teammates, guildies or whatever, someone you know can play and will listen to you will vastly increase your chances of winning, you definitely don't need a full premade.
Edited, Jun 20th 2008 4:30pm by Tinyknight
Its exactly the same in battlegrounds. On my battlegroup the horde usually win, and as a consequence are slightly better geared than the alliance. However they are not good players and not that well geared (there are always exceptions, but if you think the people who are doing BGs tend to be scrubs looking for their free S1/S2, you see the vast majority are), my 2v2 partner and I are quite capable of turning an eots or ab game on its head, we can steamroller through one or two horde in short order to quick cap bases, and we can take on and beat 4 or even 5 horde on our own, so in an ab game we will either run around capping bases with impunity or draw in a disproportionate amount of horde and hold them up for a long time, either way usually results in the alliance winning.
So I put it to you, if you want to win in BGs, bring a friend or two and work as a team, be it arena teammates, guildies or whatever, someone you know can play and will listen to you will vastly increase your chances of winning, you definitely don't need a full premade.
Edited, Jun 20th 2008 4:30pm by Tinyknight
7 posts
I've tried announcing that I'm healer and I was surrounded by ppl who wanted to go with me :P It works.
When I was in BG which was with a lot of low lvls I left. So I belive this works as well.
I've found one interesting way how to improve communication. It might not be applicable and might not work but I was quite succesful with that.
And the trick is in doing more BGs in row - like 5-10 ABs. Why? Becuase you will find out during it who is cooperating and who is not. So you will support those people who cooperates and hope the rest will change. It's kind of get used to people who you are working with. There are following phases in building a team forming, storming, norming and performing and if you are (by running multiple BGs in row) learn over the first three phases you are going to perform well.
When I was in BG which was with a lot of low lvls I left. So I belive this works as well.
I've found one interesting way how to improve communication. It might not be applicable and might not work but I was quite succesful with that.
And the trick is in doing more BGs in row - like 5-10 ABs. Why? Becuase you will find out during it who is cooperating and who is not. So you will support those people who cooperates and hope the rest will change. It's kind of get used to people who you are working with. There are following phases in building a team forming, storming, norming and performing and if you are (by running multiple BGs in row) learn over the first three phases you are going to perform well.
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