The reason I'm posting today is because I think the hero classes should be race or class specific only. I'm not trying to sound bias, but an undead death knight or a gnome death knight really doesn't fit the category for me. Death Knights should be tall, big, strong and very human (or very paladin). The c oncept of death knights are corrupted paladins if I'm correct. Also, this applies for future hero classes as well. I think the next hero class to come out are the Demon Hunters, and they are known to be a Night Elf and blood elf class, but allowing every class to be able to become a demon hunter (or even death knight for that matter) destroys the lore of warcraft. Like how does a night elf become a death knight?
Basically, what I'm trying to say is that hero classes are hero class for a reason. Some heroes are only available to some races in warcraft III, and therefore only those few races should be allowed to become that specific hero class. Right now, as far as I'm concerned, only the humans were death knights (not the old warcraft 2 orc death knights), and their transformation is due to their passion, and ignoring the rules of their supposingly original class, the paladin.
Afterall, I don't think the DK can be played as a normal character. So it really wouldn't matter if its human only (better stick with the lore than create new ones through RPG, which a lot of people are getting upset about). If I'm right, the DK should be unaccepted in both the horde and alliance society. Anyone agree with me on this?
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DK and future Hero classes should be class/race specificFollow
flamingdts wrote:
an undead death knight really doesn't fit the category for me.
So you don't think an undead could be a powerful fighter for the Lich King, ruler of the undead?
I see....
flamingdts wrote:
I think the next hero class to come out are the Demon Hunters, and they are known to be a Night Elf and blood elf class, but allowing every class to be able to become a demon hunter (or even death knight for that matter) destroys the lore of warcraft. Like how does a night elf become a death knight?
They lost their soul and were mentally seduced to follow the lich king. and if you want to start destroying the lroe of warcraft, how about a race that travels in a huge spaceship that still fights with crossbows?
And the only reason blood elves are Demon hunters is because Illidan taught them. Any reason why other Nightelf Demon hunters can't teach other races?
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Afterall, I don't think the DK can be played as a normal character. So it really wouldn't matter if its human only (better stick with the lore than create new ones through RPG, which a lot of people are getting upset about). If I'm right, the DK should be unaccepted in both the horde and alliance society. Anyone agree with me on this?
DK's aren't played as other characters. they've got some really unique skills, and an entirely new energy/rage/mana system.
And yeah, DK's probably won't be accepted straight away into the Alliance and the Horde, and more than likely there'll be some DK only quests where they deal with that.
Like you, I prefer the idea of race-specific and faction-specific classes. A hero class, regardless of the "hero" part, is a class like any other, and I would prefer it to abide to the same restrictions.
This, however, brings up extra considerations. The first one is that, should this argument be the case, you would need at least 4-5 hero classes to be released at the same time. After all, it wouldn't be fair to have only a certain class/race/faction be the only one to have access to new content.
Edited, Jun 13th 2008 4:17am by LGarth
This, however, brings up extra considerations. The first one is that, should this argument be the case, you would need at least 4-5 hero classes to be released at the same time. After all, it wouldn't be fair to have only a certain class/race/faction be the only one to have access to new content.
Edited, Jun 13th 2008 4:17am by LGarth
4 posts
Precisely what I'm saying. Night Elves teaching other races to become demon hunters is basically changing the lore (unlike illidan teaching blood elves because, well blood elves are following illidan). Demon Hunters require the work of a demon, and I don't think thats something night elves like to do. You do know that only night elf demon hunters can teach other night elf to become demon hunters right?
All I'm saying is, an undead death knight does not really suit the lore of being a death knight, neither does a night elf. Undeads are.... dead already. And becoming a death knight is due to corruption. Changing the lore of warcraft destroys the original games. And Hero class is like I said, hero class for a reason. Mixing them together with other races destroys the lore.
Basically, do you think its alright if Humans were druids in WoW, or the undeads were druids, cause this is basically the same situation. And "destroying the lore" thing is pretty serious, almost all major characters of warcraft III is being killed off right now, and the major character (arthas) is probably going to be killed off in the next expansion as well.
Since demon hunter is available to both horde and alliance (blood elf and night elf), allowing only a specific race to become a demon hunter is basically the same as druids.
Edited, Jun 13th 2008 4:24am by flamingdts
All I'm saying is, an undead death knight does not really suit the lore of being a death knight, neither does a night elf. Undeads are.... dead already. And becoming a death knight is due to corruption. Changing the lore of warcraft destroys the original games. And Hero class is like I said, hero class for a reason. Mixing them together with other races destroys the lore.
Basically, do you think its alright if Humans were druids in WoW, or the undeads were druids, cause this is basically the same situation. And "destroying the lore" thing is pretty serious, almost all major characters of warcraft III is being killed off right now, and the major character (arthas) is probably going to be killed off in the next expansion as well.
Since demon hunter is available to both horde and alliance (blood elf and night elf), allowing only a specific race to become a demon hunter is basically the same as druids.
Edited, Jun 13th 2008 4:24am by flamingdts
There is absolutely NO info yet on what Hero class will be next, much less what races will be allowed, so where you are coming from with the Demon Hunter is beyond me. Whose to say that Blizzard will keep the same "format" for every Hero class (ie: all races open, level 55, etc..)? If they make the Demon Hunter they very well could make it BE and NE only. Point is you have no idea, neither do any of the rest of us, so why get worked up over it? (not that I have found. If anyone has info contrary to this, please linky)
Secondly, How do ANY of the WoW races honestly NOT fit into DK lore? Are not all races equally capable of dieing? Thus, are not all races equally capable of being risen up as the undead? The WoW Death Knights are not limited to the stereotypical "fallen Paladin" type that we all think of. They are simply (and this has been mentioned TIME and again!) fallen combatants found worthy by the Lich King and risen up as his warriors. Now they are breaking away.
Particularly your claim about Forsaken not fitting in with Death Knight lore ... They're undead. Death Knights are, well, undead. I'm lost -.-
Edited, Jun 13th 2008 1:57am by Maulgak
Secondly, How do ANY of the WoW races honestly NOT fit into DK lore? Are not all races equally capable of dieing? Thus, are not all races equally capable of being risen up as the undead? The WoW Death Knights are not limited to the stereotypical "fallen Paladin" type that we all think of. They are simply (and this has been mentioned TIME and again!) fallen combatants found worthy by the Lich King and risen up as his warriors. Now they are breaking away.
Particularly your claim about Forsaken not fitting in with Death Knight lore ... They're undead. Death Knights are, well, undead. I'm lost -.-
Edited, Jun 13th 2008 1:57am by Maulgak
4 posts
Lol, Ironic how you say I'm getting worked up over this. Chill out dude, you're the one going nuts, I'm just voicing my opinion. The Demon Hunter was merely an example to show why I think hero classes should be race or class specific. And since Death Knight is already noted not to be race nor class specific. As far as I'm concerned, Death Knights ARE corrupted paladins who have vowed to serve the lichking in exchange for (not outta my head, but outta the lore), and they are not dead, they are corrupted and sold their soul to the lich king. The only "undead" death knights are death knights who have fallen in battle, but have instead been reraised to serve the lich king once more. Just like Arthas, he isn't dead, just .... well soulless. I think that DK should be a race specific class because, well that was the whole point of the original story.
DK aren't just raised undead combatants, and from the wiki itself, it says "To become a death knight, a Paladin must vow before Ner’zhul (or one of his designates) to serve the Scourge, be accepted". I can't see how the other race fit into the story. The reason I think the forsaken don't fit into the catergory is because they were once scourge. They were once the regular ghouls and soldiers that the lich king used, but had "will" to free themselves. Wouldn't make much sense to me if a forsaken (undead) sold their soul again to the lich king to become a death knight.
By the way, concerning the demon hunters. Well I can't say I know that they will come out next expansion, but as far as I'm concerned (and through reading many "possible hero classes for next expansion", with demon hunter always coming out top), they're the next true proper hero class that was actually put in the gam. Arthas was specified as a "death knight" and has a detailed background to becoming one.. Illidan was a "Demon Hunter" also with a very detailed background to becoming one. Also, hero class is a class which is incredibly unique. I can't think of another hero that has its own unique set of skills besides death knigth and demon hunter (demontology, mana burn stuff, transforming into a demon). Try searching "next possible hero class in wow" and you will easily find demon hunter coming out top.
DK aren't just raised undead combatants, and from the wiki itself, it says "To become a death knight, a Paladin must vow before Ner’zhul (or one of his designates) to serve the Scourge, be accepted". I can't see how the other race fit into the story. The reason I think the forsaken don't fit into the catergory is because they were once scourge. They were once the regular ghouls and soldiers that the lich king used, but had "will" to free themselves. Wouldn't make much sense to me if a forsaken (undead) sold their soul again to the lich king to become a death knight.
By the way, concerning the demon hunters. Well I can't say I know that they will come out next expansion, but as far as I'm concerned (and through reading many "possible hero classes for next expansion", with demon hunter always coming out top), they're the next true proper hero class that was actually put in the gam. Arthas was specified as a "death knight" and has a detailed background to becoming one.. Illidan was a "Demon Hunter" also with a very detailed background to becoming one. Also, hero class is a class which is incredibly unique. I can't think of another hero that has its own unique set of skills besides death knigth and demon hunter (demontology, mana burn stuff, transforming into a demon). Try searching "next possible hero class in wow" and you will easily find demon hunter coming out top.
2 posts
What he means by an undead Death knight is that it is sorta a double negative because DKs are undeady andways but and undead one is just a little wierd sounding like a Night Elf Hunter Hunter you know?
flamingdts wrote:
Precisely what I'm saying. Night Elves teaching other races to become demon hunters is basically changing the lore (unlike illidan teaching blood elves because, well blood elves are following illidan). Demon Hunters require the work of a demon, and I don't think thats something night elves like to do. You do know that only night elf demon hunters can teach other night elf to become demon hunters right?
Incorrect, otherwise how did Illidan teach the blood elves?
And other races can become demon hunters. to quote wowwiki
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The tradition of the demon hunter arises from night elf history, and almost all demon hunters are night elves. A few blood elves make the pledge as well, seeking revenge for the destruction of their home. Other races can become demon hunters, but such individuals are unheard of. Any member of another race who is willing to make the sacrifices necessary to join the fight against the demonic invaders must find a night elf or blood elf demon hunter to assist him in the initiation ceremonies.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Demon_hunter
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All I'm saying is, an undead death knight does not really suit the lore of being a death knight, neither does a night elf. Undeads are.... dead already. And becoming a death knight is due to corruption.
And what, someone can't become so corrupt that they die, and yet still carry on? Arthas and other Death Knights in WC3 were classed as undead, and the original Death Knights of WC2 were Orc souls in the raised bodies of fallen alliance soldiers.
And to quote Wowwiki
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However, as powerful and valuable agents of the Scourge, death knights are not freed from service to the Lich Kingwhen they die. They are simply raised into undeath to continue their grim work. As a result, the occasional death knight is undead and more closely resembles a zombie or skeleton, with rotting skin and protruding bones.
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Changing the lore of warcraft destroys the original games.
Does that mean Warcraft to WC3 have been destroyed? Becuse each game since has changed lore. Sargeras was originally a tiny footnote at the start, but is now the full blown 'omg epic evil' of the world, with the entire backstory of Azeroth coming with him. Originally the Lost Ones were called Dranei, akama's model being one. Fact is, blizzard are the ones who write the story, and if they decide that yes, night elves can be corrupted and become Death Knights, then nightelves can be corrupted and become DeathKnights.
The only race I find odd is Dranei, as I remember hearing that the DK's have something to do with the 'characters' actions in WC3 or The Scourge Invasion event, and Dranei weren't around for either. Guess they were just captured in the plaguelands or something.
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The concept of death knights are corrupted paladins if I'm correct
You're not. Arthas was a corrupted Paladin, and there are more examples, but a Death Knight doesn't have to be derived from a Paladin. The basis of their power is the Lich King, their abilities bear no resemblance to Light-derived Paladin abilities whatsoever. Powerful forces for Good being corrupted into powerful forces for Bad is pure RP gold and has a lot of Warcraft D&Ders creaming their shorts, but its not a requirement.
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Death Knights should be tall, big, strong and very human
Undead are former humans, they used to be tall/big/strong but now they're bent/crooked/strong so I dont see the problem there, as you point out someone who cared enough could just say "Well hey, I used to be a Human Death Knight but then some Paladin got me in Alterac Valley (nerf Crusader strike omg) and now Im Forsaken". Out of every race against which to hold an objection, the former citizens of Lordaeron, the home region of the strongest Death Knight ever makes possibly the least sense. Also, Orcs are big and strong, Trolls are big and strong, Tauren are HUGE and strong, and Blood Elf males are actually more muscled and noble-looking than their human counterparts who all look like grubby peasants if you ask me, I half expect Human Paladins to cop a wink and say "Guv'nor" or somesuch.
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Since demon hunter is available to both horde and alliance (blood elf and night elf), allowing only a specific race to become a demon hunter is basically the same as druids.
Well Demon Hunters I'll actually hold my hands up and say fair enough, I actually think only Elves should be Demon Hunters simply on an aesthetic level and there is one Elf race per side so it balances. They could have a nice cool racial each and we'd all enjoy the Fist of the North Star-style 'two halves of the same blade' metaphor while beating the **** out of each other in Arena. Druids are a different kettle of fish from Death Knights though because their power is derived from Nature and, I guess, from Elune. A Druid has to be in-tune with the natural world, you cant really say any of the other races particularly are. Night Elves and Tauren are both conspicuously hippy-like in their construction techniques compared to the whole 'mine the earth dry and then bury crap in it' industrial bent of the other races. An Undead couldnt be a Druid and neither could a Human because of a philosophical issue, not "WIKISEZSODEYCARNT". Besides, if you want to really stick to the lore, the only Druids should be male Night Elves, which would be a bit sucky really.
Are you by any chance a Warcraft D&D / TTRPG / LARP acolyte? They're the only people I know who get this horny over Human Paladins.
Wow flamingdts, you have so many incorrect information that all I can say is wow.
First off, saying:
Yes I do think that hero classes should be class specific. I mean what is a Death Knight if he's, you know, not a Death Knight?
About the undead, I don't see what is the problem with them being Death Knights. I mean, Death Knights are the people who were revived from fallen corpse right? If I am not mistaken, undead are also the living dead just like Death Knights are right?
According to WoWWiki:
So you see, there are those Death Knights who arose from fallen corpse and those paladins who sold their souls to the Lich King. As you can see, it is just a matter if you are old school or keeping up with the latest trend. If you fit the "you have a soul" category, you are eligible to become a Death Knight. The last I checked, Night Elves have souls, so I think that makes them eligible.
From wowwiki again:
LoM #?
Then you go on and say that Demon Hunters cannot teach other people to become Demon Hunters?
Micros already told you that you only need a Night Elf or Blood Elf to teach you how to become a Demon Hunter.
Please do not try to change the lore because YOU think it should be so-and-so way.
Without knowing the lore, you are telling everyone how Death Knights and Demon Hunters don't fit so-and-so way?
First off, saying:
Quote:
The reason I'm posting today is because I think the hero classes should be race or class specific only.
Yes I do think that hero classes should be class specific. I mean what is a Death Knight if he's, you know, not a Death Knight?
About the undead, I don't see what is the problem with them being Death Knights. I mean, Death Knights are the people who were revived from fallen corpse right? If I am not mistaken, undead are also the living dead just like Death Knights are right?
According to WoWWiki:
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Gul'dan successfully instilled the spirit of the necrolyte Teron Gorefiend into the corpse of a fallen knight of Stormwind. Thus, the first terrifying death knight was born.
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Unlike Gul'dan's death knights, modern death knights consist mainly of paladins who lost their faith and pledged their souls to the Lich King in exchange for the promise of immortality.
So you see, there are those Death Knights who arose from fallen corpse and those paladins who sold their souls to the Lich King. As you can see, it is just a matter if you are old school or keeping up with the latest trend. If you fit the "you have a soul" category, you are eligible to become a Death Knight. The last I checked, Night Elves have souls, so I think that makes them eligible.
From wowwiki again:
Quote:
Human demon hunters are apparently rare, however there are human demon hunters guarding Mount Hyjal with the help of fellow night elf demon hunters.
Then you go on and say that Demon Hunters cannot teach other people to become Demon Hunters?
Micros already told you that you only need a Night Elf or Blood Elf to teach you how to become a Demon Hunter.
Please do not try to change the lore because YOU think it should be so-and-so way.
Without knowing the lore, you are telling everyone how Death Knights and Demon Hunters don't fit so-and-so way?
Funny I get told I'm being bent out of shape and to chill. Ok, maybe the caps came off wrong, as they were put in there solely for emphasis. My bad. But look at what has been posted since then!
This is from the official Wrath of the Lich King website, part of it has been quoted already:
So I concede, maybe DKs don't start off as true undead, but they aren't exactly "living" either. My thoughts is they sort of cross over to undeath without actually dieing, though should they die, they are risen again.
This is from the official Wrath of the Lich King website, part of it has been quoted already:
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Years after the destruction of Draenor, the immensely powerful Lich King created a new breed of death knights: malevolent, rune-wielding warriors of the Scourge. The first and greatest of these was Prince Arthas Menethil, once a mighty paladin of the Silver Hand, who sacrificed his soul to claim the runeblade Frostmourne in a desperate bid to save his people.
Unlike Gul'dan's death knights, modern death knights consist mainly of paladins who lost their faith and pledged their souls to the Lich King in exchange for the promise of immortality. Death knights who fall in battle are soon raised again to continue in their master's service.
In the years since Arthas shattered the Frozen Throne and merged with the Lich King, the power and fury of the death knights has only grown. Now these unrelenting crusaders of the damned eagerly await the Lich King's command to unleash their fury on Azeroth once again.
Unlike Gul'dan's death knights, modern death knights consist mainly of paladins who lost their faith and pledged their souls to the Lich King in exchange for the promise of immortality. Death knights who fall in battle are soon raised again to continue in their master's service.
In the years since Arthas shattered the Frozen Throne and merged with the Lich King, the power and fury of the death knights has only grown. Now these unrelenting crusaders of the damned eagerly await the Lich King's command to unleash their fury on Azeroth once again.
So I concede, maybe DKs don't start off as true undead, but they aren't exactly "living" either. My thoughts is they sort of cross over to undeath without actually dieing, though should they die, they are risen again.
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