As a learning tank i constantly meet one dilemma. Who should be marked first second....? Often the mob consists of lets say caster lvl 55, dps lvl56 and 58. If i mark and try to pull the caster with shoot i get the others running towards me and caster casts at me, but people start attacking the caster while he is marked first. Is this good if i stay and hold aggro on the dps mob? What appears to happen is that our guys pull extra mob while running to the caster and i stay taking hits alone. Is it better to mark a dps mob so he and other dps comes running and i hold aggro+let our group kill those dps:ers. I off course take the hits from caster but i believe we work more organized this way. Another alternative is that i charge inti the caster and try to hold aggro on all mobs where they are, but this i believe is pretty risky and other mobs are easily pulled, i havent found the charge strategy so usable when i read tanking guides.
As i said i try to learn and appreciate your advice
Thanks
Krarob
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8 posts
Well the first trick you can try is called LOS (Line of Sight) pulling.
1. Tell the group to stay put for a second
2. Mark your caster as the first target
3. Shoot the caster and run away, behind your party and outside your target's casting range
- You can also hide behind a door, pillar or some other object.
This will cause the caster and his buddies to come find you, once the group gets into your camp you can turn around and charge back in or if you had hid behind a wall or another object you can just jump out and start building threat on your first target, and the party can start their DPS.
If LOS pulling is not an option, there's nothing wrong with marking the caster as your first target and then charging in, hitting a thunderclap and letting your party start their DPS. The general idea is to just kill the casters as fast as possible since they're generally easy to take down.
1. Tell the group to stay put for a second
2. Mark your caster as the first target
3. Shoot the caster and run away, behind your party and outside your target's casting range
- You can also hide behind a door, pillar or some other object.
This will cause the caster and his buddies to come find you, once the group gets into your camp you can turn around and charge back in or if you had hid behind a wall or another object you can just jump out and start building threat on your first target, and the party can start their DPS.
If LOS pulling is not an option, there's nothing wrong with marking the caster as your first target and then charging in, hitting a thunderclap and letting your party start their DPS. The general idea is to just kill the casters as fast as possible since they're generally easy to take down.
Alot of times I mark the caster as the first to die, and don't even bother tanking it. This works very well if you have some group members who can silence/CS the caster. Caster mobs that ain't casting aren't that much of a threat. This is especially true of healer mobs - their damage is crap so I just mark em for death and let the DPS deal with em.
This allows you to build threat on the next targets while your DPS gets to go nuts on said caster.
LOS pulling is another good tactic, gets the whole group together on top of you.
You can also spell reflect tank the caster. Keep spell reflect on CD and that should hold him on you.
Cheers!
Tiq
This allows you to build threat on the next targets while your DPS gets to go nuts on said caster.
LOS pulling is another good tactic, gets the whole group together on top of you.
You can also spell reflect tank the caster. Keep spell reflect on CD and that should hold him on you.
Cheers!
Tiq
if you're a gob engineer, you can use the rocket launcher to keep a caster mob glued to quite well, and then spell reflect tank it. i've held caster mobs for an entire pull thanks to that lil beauty.
17 posts
Thanks for answers, should really find ways to use LOS, must be best posssible cause the chanse for aditional mobs must be slim. Im not really weather charging the caster or letting him be killed by dps was confirmed to be the best idea, but i guess its ok with both as long as dps:ers really attack the skull and not run around. But that caster goes down first is now clear and i thank y for answers.
Krarob
Krarob
Quote:
Im not really weather charging the caster or letting him be killed by dps was confirmed to be the best idea,
Charging the caster is rarely a good idea. Unless you have no pats, next group of mobs is far away, no fearing mobs, no local CC (i.e. sheep, shackle, etc...), and I'm sure I missing a few. In that primo situation, charging the caster is ok. Otherwise, it can just be very very dangerous.
In general, letting the DPS hit the caster from a distance without tanking it will lead to the DPS getting slammed. Not generally a good idea (there are exceptions, but I don't think we're talking about that).
So the answer to your qeustion is "Don't do either".
LOS pull is really the best option. Learn it and love it. Don't forget that you may have to run quite a distance sometimes, and that is OK. If you get hit once or twice by a spell while your running, bandage up when you get around LOS corner. That way, your healer won't be getting aggro before you drop your TC or anything.
Remember to use your mouse to turn around. Keyboard turning will pretty much guarantee that you will get hit.
Personally, I never worry about casters unless there's nothing else in the pull. That's what your ranged DPS and CC is for. Let them do their job.
Use LOS pulling where possible to get the casters out of an area where they might aggro something else, but your job is to keep melee types engaged. Let the rest of the party worry about the squishy guys.
The exception to this is mobs who can break CC and mobs who can heal. Those should go down in that order and should be your concern. Broken CC leads to wipes. Healing mobs are just annoying. But straight dps casting mobs are not worth worrying about as a tank, unless that's all there is.
Use LOS pulling where possible to get the casters out of an area where they might aggro something else, but your job is to keep melee types engaged. Let the rest of the party worry about the squishy guys.
The exception to this is mobs who can break CC and mobs who can heal. Those should go down in that order and should be your concern. Broken CC leads to wipes. Healing mobs are just annoying. But straight dps casting mobs are not worth worrying about as a tank, unless that's all there is.
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But straight dps casting mobs are not worth worrying about as a tank, unless that's all there is.
Really? The problem with not caring is that they can quickly turn onto your healer since you are not building threat. Like in heroic Ramps. When there are 3-4 casters, if you hope DPS takes them out, then your healer is toast.
I would just caution against ignoring casters.
Your example sort of skips the rest of my post -- "That's what your ranged DPS and CC is for. Let them do their job. "
If you can't CC three mobs in Heroic Ramparts, you won't last long unless you're over-geared for heroics. Don't worry about those casters first, let the rest of your team do their jobs.
And once the melee guys are down, casters are all there is.
At which point, you take them out in the order of weakest CC to strongest.
But on the pull, they aren't your problem, except to LOS them into a safe location for your group to do what they do.
Edited, Jun 9th 2008 11:35am by kingpatzer
If you can't CC three mobs in Heroic Ramparts, you won't last long unless you're over-geared for heroics. Don't worry about those casters first, let the rest of your team do their jobs.
And once the melee guys are down, casters are all there is.
At which point, you take them out in the order of weakest CC to strongest.
But on the pull, they aren't your problem, except to LOS them into a safe location for your group to do what they do.
Edited, Jun 9th 2008 11:35am by kingpatzer
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Your example sort of skips the rest of my post -- "That's what your ranged DPS and CC is for. Let them do their job. "
I think I just misunderstood. If you CC them, then I get it. I guess the "ranged DPS" reference is what got me. I thought you were implying that you only use ranged DPS (and not tank) the ones you don't CC. That is where my question came from.
If you CC all the casters, then there is no issue. If there are extra casters after CC, then having only ranged DPS on them could be trouble (unless the ranged DPS also have a way to silence them). In general, I guess I'm just used to tanking the casters in addition to the melee mobs. Unless the ranged DPS are over-geared, and can take out the non-CC mob VERY quickly.
Does that make sense?
Please note - I'm still learning, so I'm really asking the question, and trying to understand if my thinking is correct. I'm not implying that I'm doing the right thing. I've just done it differently. If there is a better way, I'd like to better understand it, and then I'll try it.
Thanks
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Please note - I'm still learning, so I'm really asking the question, and trying to understand if my thinking is correct. I'm not implying that I'm doing the right thing. I've just done it differently. If there is a better way, I'd like to better understand it, and then I'll try it.t
Well, it does depend on group make-up.
I tend to group with a known healer and then recruit an ideal group make-up for the instance we're going to run. That means I tend to have exactly what is needed for me to take that attitude. Further, I tend to group from folks from my own guild, and two known guilds that we frequently partner with on some content -- so I'm getting people who have access to our vent channel, know our marking convention, know our pull order on common zones, etc., etc., etc. We occasionally have a true PUG member, but we all let them know what's going on before we even step in the instance.
If you're talking a typical PUG, it's a lot harder to trust your team to do the right thing. But at the same time, if you try to do too much, you'll end up over-extended as a tank, which isn't good either.
deleted
Edited, Aug 27th 2008 12:34am by kawainui
Edited, Aug 27th 2008 12:34am by kawainui
17 posts
ill definitely search to find ways for LOS.
Thanks
Krarob
Thanks
Krarob
17 posts
yes its really a world of difference with known people and the kill+pull+attack everything i random order groups. Maybee a nitpicky question thats been answered but if LOS not is an option, if i dont run to casters i believe ill have to pull the melee mobs and let caster hit me(if he is not silenced, sapped or otherwise neutralized) so i have all the aggro on me. Then our group kills the melee mobs first so we dont brake any spells on casters, after that we obviously have to kill the casters. Is this correkt? (i just wanna be sure that i really implement the right thing and learn it well)
Thanks
Krarob
Thanks
Krarob
If you leave the caster alone, and everyone focuses on melee mobs, then your healer will get targeted by the caster after 1-2 heals. So that is a VERY bad idea (there are exceptions, but in general, it is a bad idea to have healer "tank" a caster).
If you tank the melee, and all your DPS downs the caster, then that is better.
I think that answers your question.
If you tank the melee, and all your DPS downs the caster, then that is better.
I think that answers your question.
One other thing to consider is kill speed. If you have a group of 6 mobs (3 melee, 3 casters) and 2 CC, it usually takes much less time to kill the 2 casters, and reduces the incoming dmg / healing to the group by a LOT. TBH, if I'm running an instance, caster mobs are almost always CCed or killed first.
Mob priority is more involved than that (e.g., kill fearing mobs first, CC mobs that will incapacitate the tank, etc.), but after that ... casters are squishy and can usually die in a very short period of time. Melee mobs take forever to kill, and usually aren't quite as dangerous.
Mob priority is more involved than that (e.g., kill fearing mobs first, CC mobs that will incapacitate the tank, etc.), but after that ... casters are squishy and can usually die in a very short period of time. Melee mobs take forever to kill, and usually aren't quite as dangerous.
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Maybee a nitpicky question thats been answered but if LOS not is an option, if i dont run to casters i believe ill have to pull the melee mobs and let caster hit me(if he is not silenced, sapped or otherwise neutralized) so i have all the aggro on me. Then our group kills the melee mobs first so we dont brake any spells on casters, after that we obviously have to kill the casters. Is this correkt?
If you can't LOS, but you can get close to them, shield bash them and then draw them back. Shield bash silences the caster, so they'll move with you. You only can move one at a time this way, but you can move them.
17 posts
Yes this really clarifies things and its really the answer i was looking for. Now i really see the pattern and logic behind it and the pieces came together. i Thank u all for help, its really gonna pay big dividents in the future.
Krarob
Krarob
Quote:
shield bash them and then draw them back
this works if you have improved shield bash, which is a great talent for 5-mans.
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if you leave the caster alone, and everyone focuses on melee mobs, then your healer will get targeted by the caster after 1-2 heals
this is where spell reflect shines. in the example of 1 caster + 2 melee, mark the caster to die third. pull by throwing at the caster - he won't move, but the melee will head for you. keep spell reflect on cooldown and tank the melee as normal. the damage from spell reflect will almost always overcome healing threat.
my preference for dealing with casters, in order:
1) sheep
2) spell reflect tank
3) shield bash and move
4) trap (requires MM hunter)
5) LOS (LOS is a pain)
1-5 should be used if you have to move the caster to avoid a patrol. if not, you have a few other choices...
6) just run in and mark him for first kill
7) sap
8) dps tank
LOS is good in theory, but always adds chaos to the pull, especially in PUGs. usually, dps or CC is not patient enough to let it go smoothly. with a well coordinated group, it's better.
letting dps tank casters is questionable, especially if they are hitting hard. it makes the healer's job much tougher. the only exception to this for me is if one of your dps'ers is way overgeared - then let them have some fun. rogues can be very effective at stun-locking and quickly dispatching of a caster.
sap is only used if you're sure you will be ready for the caster when sap expires. otherwise, if he wakes up pissed off at someone else, it gets messy.
there is only a very few pulls in this game where you cant LoS pull the casters to you, or where you can charge them and fight where they are. and i wouldnt set a dps to tank for anything serius ever, CC what you can and the rest are the tanks responsibility. wether they are casters or melee has nuthing to do with it.. if you loose aggro to your healer its purely your fault, and dps should be buisy burning down the main targets not trying to tank.
3 CCs should not be needed for anything(thou for MgT and SH it can be nice), and if you cant handle tanking 3 mobs at once i fear its because you are in over your head, you cant expect to find 3 CCs every group. this is not to sound elitist, but giving people the idea that they need that much CC to succes just aint right. just plan the pull and make sure everyone knows what they are doing.
one other thing, if you are a engeneer, the poultryrizer is a excelent way of pulling casters since it has a long range and makes them unable to cast
Buzak
3 CCs should not be needed for anything(thou for MgT and SH it can be nice), and if you cant handle tanking 3 mobs at once i fear its because you are in over your head, you cant expect to find 3 CCs every group. this is not to sound elitist, but giving people the idea that they need that much CC to succes just aint right. just plan the pull and make sure everyone knows what they are doing.
one other thing, if you are a engeneer, the poultryrizer is a excelent way of pulling casters since it has a long range and makes them unable to cast
Buzak
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