Since a few weeks I finally found some time in my RL-schedule to do some raiding (kara, Gruul, ZA) with my new guild.
The good news is that I'm always on top of the damage meter.
The bad news is that I'm by far not doing my full potential DPS, due to agro. Our tanks have slightly less quality gear than I have, but not that much. I always give them quite some seconds to build threat. But shortly after starting my dps, my screen starts flashing red 'cause I'm over 95% threat.
I really have to hold back dps'ing to avoid over-agro. On bosses, I vanish on around 70%. But usually I have my agro-problems way before the boss is on 70%... And when I do AR+BF+BloodFury after a vanish, I manage the reach the top of the threat meter again long before the boss is dead.
Also, I would like to do some decent damage on trash without agro (I can't vanish on every thrash mob, can I).
So... any advices to avoid this? Should I change something? Or is it normal that rogues can't do their max DPS? Or do our tanks just suck or need better gear?
Thnx.
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Dealing with agro
Dealing with agroFollow
Scholar
30 posts
Whilst I'm not totally qualified to answer the rogue bit (despite being a 65 Rogue) maybe I can give you some insight to the tanks from a mate of mine who is trying to improve.
If their gear is not as good as yours then you might find that they are in the instance trying to get better gear - problem is that in some cases, like my friend, there doesn't seem to be any really good defence plate outside of the instances (AH or make) so he's there plugging away trying to get some (either by winning drops or he said badges (I presume that's a rep thing)).
It is kind of a chicken and egg scenario - he can't get the good stuff so he's in the instance to get the good stuff, but you can't really do the high level instances that have the good stuff without having the good stuff!
Anyway, the other day he had 2 mages in with him and he had no trouble controlling the agro from one of them but the other had much better gear than him and was dishing out the love (fire specced of course) so kept taking the agro and getting made into a mushy paste on the floor. He was getting quite stroppy with the tank but maybe he could have held back of some of his attacks and used the slightly less damaging spells etc. Would it help/work doing finishing moves when you only have 2 dots rather than waiting to 4 or 5?
Ewood - 65 NElf Rogue
Charay - 44 Draenai Shaman
A wise person once said PVP is live, kill, die, rez, repeat
My warrior is a bank toon as it's too hard a job!
eta. punctuation and something else to make more sense.
Edited, Jun 9th 2008 6:36am by fruitgum
If their gear is not as good as yours then you might find that they are in the instance trying to get better gear - problem is that in some cases, like my friend, there doesn't seem to be any really good defence plate outside of the instances (AH or make) so he's there plugging away trying to get some (either by winning drops or he said badges (I presume that's a rep thing)).
It is kind of a chicken and egg scenario - he can't get the good stuff so he's in the instance to get the good stuff, but you can't really do the high level instances that have the good stuff without having the good stuff!
Anyway, the other day he had 2 mages in with him and he had no trouble controlling the agro from one of them but the other had much better gear than him and was dishing out the love (fire specced of course) so kept taking the agro and getting made into a mushy paste on the floor. He was getting quite stroppy with the tank but maybe he could have held back of some of his attacks and used the slightly less damaging spells etc. Would it help/work doing finishing moves when you only have 2 dots rather than waiting to 4 or 5?
Ewood - 65 NElf Rogue
Charay - 44 Draenai Shaman
A wise person once said PVP is live, kill, die, rez, repeat
My warrior is a bank toon as it's too hard a job!
eta. punctuation and something else to make more sense.
Edited, Jun 9th 2008 6:36am by fruitgum
Maybe use feint alittle?
It sounds like your tanks need to gear up.
I hate to be harsh but they may need to learn a bit more on aggro management too. If they're not using taunts, warstomps, consecrates (whatever class they are).
Make sure you're hitting the same target as the tank too. (Which I'm sure you are if everything is marked properly)
The problem with Blade Furry is it hits one surrounding mob as well as your main target, doesn't cause alot of threat but you have to make sure the tank is doing thier job on multiple pulls. Myself and another rogue repeatedly last night ended up evasion tanking because our warrior couldn't keep aggro with the adds. Never noticed him use any threat generating abilities.
The main target he didn't have a problem with but as soon as we got 2 or 3 mobs the fight was on.
Feint can be helpful too. Usually have to hit it a couple of times though.
Other than that, sounds like you're going to have to back off a bit more just to make sure, or get alot of +dodge +stam, respec so you have Prep and learn to evasion tank. ;-)
Badges of Justice are what he's talking about. You get them for killing bosses in Heroic Instances and from Kara bosses. (Nots sure about the other raids)
You can trade them in for epic items at vendors. You can get some good gear from them.
I hate to be harsh but they may need to learn a bit more on aggro management too. If they're not using taunts, warstomps, consecrates (whatever class they are).
Make sure you're hitting the same target as the tank too. (Which I'm sure you are if everything is marked properly)
The problem with Blade Furry is it hits one surrounding mob as well as your main target, doesn't cause alot of threat but you have to make sure the tank is doing thier job on multiple pulls. Myself and another rogue repeatedly last night ended up evasion tanking because our warrior couldn't keep aggro with the adds. Never noticed him use any threat generating abilities.
The main target he didn't have a problem with but as soon as we got 2 or 3 mobs the fight was on.
Feint can be helpful too. Usually have to hit it a couple of times though.
Other than that, sounds like you're going to have to back off a bit more just to make sure, or get alot of +dodge +stam, respec so you have Prep and learn to evasion tank. ;-)
fruitgum wrote:
he said badges (I presume that's a rep thing)).
Badges of Justice are what he's talking about. You get them for killing bosses in Heroic Instances and from Kara bosses. (Nots sure about the other raids)
You can trade them in for epic items at vendors. You can get some good gear from them.
Just because you're passing 95% of the tanks threat doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to pull aggro. I've passed a tanks threat 110% and they still have aggro.
I understand that these tanks are a tad undergeared compared to you, but I wouldn't worry about it too much. As the posters above said, feint does help if you're worried about it. I usually don't even vanish until I start getting my face pounded on. Until I actually do pull aggro, I'll keep swinging away.
You could always use cheap shot as well (the tanks should have enough rage for the few seconds the mob is stunned, even though using stuns with tanks that require rage is frowned upon), and stop attacking to give the tanks the ability to regain aggro.
Vanish is moreso our "oh crap" button.
I understand that these tanks are a tad undergeared compared to you, but I wouldn't worry about it too much. As the posters above said, feint does help if you're worried about it. I usually don't even vanish until I start getting my face pounded on. Until I actually do pull aggro, I'll keep swinging away.
You could always use cheap shot as well (the tanks should have enough rage for the few seconds the mob is stunned, even though using stuns with tanks that require rage is frowned upon), and stop attacking to give the tanks the ability to regain aggro.
Vanish is moreso our "oh crap" button.
With respect, I have to disagree a bit here. At least for bosses.
You can pass 100% tank threat and not pull aggro, but pulling the attention of a raid boss is absolute fail. You can and will move the boss out of position, complicate the tanks threat gen rotation, jeopardize other dps and healers, and likely get one-shotted hence bringing your dps to zero. Threat management is, in my opinion, as important (if not more so) as proper gearing. Using feint or temporarily stopping dps can be used to control your threat but getting your tanks gearing and rotations up to cope is important as well. Really, it's vitally important as dps for us to scale our output to the capabilities of the tank.
Remember: If the tank dies, it's the healers fault. If a healer dies, it's the tanks' fault. If dps dies that's their problem. ;p
note: Many raids will out and out tell dps (especially melee) to bring bandages because they shouldn't expect heals.
You might be able to evasion tank some of the trash in Kara, but trying it in TK or Gruuls won't be pretty. Take it from me ;) Better to learn good habits earlier rather than later in my opinion.
-----
Also, using Vanish offensively is very useful. It doesn't have to be just an ohs*t button. Often with bosses I'll pop a Vanish after my opening cooldowns are all used (and after the open Garrote is done ticking away). Timed right, it's another bunch of dot damage, and the time lost is not a problem as long as you fit it correctly in the 1s/5r cycle (the 2 combo points make up for the loss of 1 gcd).
Happy hunting
You can pass 100% tank threat and not pull aggro, but pulling the attention of a raid boss is absolute fail. You can and will move the boss out of position, complicate the tanks threat gen rotation, jeopardize other dps and healers, and likely get one-shotted hence bringing your dps to zero. Threat management is, in my opinion, as important (if not more so) as proper gearing. Using feint or temporarily stopping dps can be used to control your threat but getting your tanks gearing and rotations up to cope is important as well. Really, it's vitally important as dps for us to scale our output to the capabilities of the tank.
Remember: If the tank dies, it's the healers fault. If a healer dies, it's the tanks' fault. If dps dies that's their problem. ;p
note: Many raids will out and out tell dps (especially melee) to bring bandages because they shouldn't expect heals.
You might be able to evasion tank some of the trash in Kara, but trying it in TK or Gruuls won't be pretty. Take it from me ;) Better to learn good habits earlier rather than later in my opinion.
-----
Also, using Vanish offensively is very useful. It doesn't have to be just an ohs*t button. Often with bosses I'll pop a Vanish after my opening cooldowns are all used (and after the open Garrote is done ticking away). Timed right, it's another bunch of dot damage, and the time lost is not a problem as long as you fit it correctly in the 1s/5r cycle (the 2 combo points make up for the loss of 1 gcd).
Happy hunting
some things to consider, try using crappy anestetic poison. poisons are typically 6-10% of your damage, so to have no threat on that component may help, although it will lower your dps. try to wait as long as possible to use vanish (without pulling threat of course) and make sure its up on bosses. because of how threat works, you need 110% of the tank's threat to pull. now if hes at 10k threat and you vanish, by the time you catch up hes at 20k threat, and now you need 22k to pull aggro. (just bouncing numbers around, but it scales up as the fight goes on).
also, try to not stack all your buffs at the same time. do just BF, then just AR, then just blood fury. you get less of a burst and a little more time for the tank.
also, try to not stack all your buffs at the same time. do just BF, then just AR, then just blood fury. you get less of a burst and a little more time for the tank.
Do AR and BF actually have any synergy? As I understand it BF will not affect your yellow damage aside from more potency procs, and AR does not affect your white damage. In fact with the extra energy from potency might it not be a better idea to use AR and BF separately? My rogue is still not 70, so I'm figuring these things out.
Of course if you have any on use AP trinkets, both AR and BF will magnify them, so it would make sense to pop all of them at once, but if you're having aggro problems you might be better off separating them. What do the experts have to say about this?
Of course if you have any on use AP trinkets, both AR and BF will magnify them, so it would make sense to pop all of them at once, but if you're having aggro problems you might be better off separating them. What do the experts have to say about this?
01001001 00100000 01001100 01001001 01001011 01000101 00100000 01000011 01000001 01001011 01000101
You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
Forum FAQ
You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
Forum FAQ
I use BF for raid bosses only for the speed boost. AR is for CB gen. Two great tastes that go great together. Within one SnD cycle I can easily get 2 full finishers. This. Is. Awesome.
They don't directly effect any damage modifiers (auto, special, whatever), they magnify your damage from indirect methods (haste and CB gen).
Yes, I use them together (and the occasional Haste Potion). Like a blender, only more bloody. ;P
They don't directly effect any damage modifiers (auto, special, whatever), they magnify your damage from indirect methods (haste and CB gen).
Yes, I use them together (and the occasional Haste Potion). Like a blender, only more bloody. ;P
aspira wrote:
Maybe use feint alittle?
NO.
Your tanks suck, that's the problem.
Sir Xsarus wrote:
Do AR and BF actually have any synergy? As I understand it BF will not affect your yellow damage aside from more potency procs, and AR does not affect your white damage. In fact with the extra energy from potency might it not be a better idea to use AR and BF separately? My rogue is still not 70, so I'm figuring these things out.
Of course if you have any on use AP trinkets, both AR and BF will magnify them, so it would make sense to pop all of them at once, but if you're having aggro problems you might be better off separating them. What do the experts have to say about this?
Of course if you have any on use AP trinkets, both AR and BF will magnify them, so it would make sense to pop all of them at once, but if you're having aggro problems you might be better off separating them. What do the experts have to say about this?
If you have a problem with energy capping when you use bf/ar together then yes, use them seperately. For me, i use bf/haste pot at the same time, then ar right after they wear off.
If your threat starts geting up there just vanish, chances are you'll never catch back up. Like on bloodboil, at about 60% I vanish and I'll never catch up the the MT or the OT's. This allows me to go wild with dps while everybody else is watching their threat.
You pop AR + BF + best trinket + Haste Potion all at the same time. Why?
1 - Twice as many specials under the effect of the extra Attack Power
2 - Any extra energy that you gain from BF/Haste can get vented back into extra damage, again under effect of your trinket
3 - A million numbers rolling across your screen is @#%^ing awesome.
4 - Your tanks suck tell him to work on his threat gear and tps rotations.
Edited, Jun 9th 2008 8:59pm by Banatu
1 - Twice as many specials under the effect of the extra Attack Power
2 - Any extra energy that you gain from BF/Haste can get vented back into extra damage, again under effect of your trinket
3 - A million numbers rolling across your screen is @#%^ing awesome.
4 - Your tanks suck tell him to work on his threat gear and tps rotations.
Edited, Jun 9th 2008 8:59pm by Banatu
Quote:
Your tanks suck, that's the problem.
It's better to use feint than to cry about how the tank sucks!
Edited, Jun 10th 2008 4:41am by aspira
Quote:
It's better to use feint than to cry about how the tank sucks!
Actually if the tank is bad enough feint does nothing but end up killing your dps. I was in gruuls two nights ago and we wiped 3 times. Why? because the ot sucked, I used to be easily the best melee dps in that guild(left the day after the story I'm talking about) so i was standing there with auto attack going hitting feint every time it came off cd and using 1 ss to keep snd up every 12 seconds. Vanish was on cd and he was trailing me by about 40k threat by 60%... so saying that its always the rogues fault is not always true, and anyone that has ever grouped with a tank this bad knows it. But anyway eventually I just stopped attacking so he could pass me and then he ran away from gruul and hateful hit me anyway after he had passed me by 3k threat <_<, asked him wth and he said it was because he needed to make sure he wasn't passing the mt's threat...... -.-
MT had about 200k more threat then him btw lol
Do you have a paladin for Blessing of Sacrifice? If not, get one in your raid. But your tanks probably do still suck.
BoSac?
I think you mean Salv.
Blessing of Salvation reduces threat, BoSac gives a certain percent of damage caused to the target to the paladin; really only useful in situations where a paladin is effected by a CC that can be broken by damage.
I think you mean Salv.
Blessing of Salvation reduces threat, BoSac gives a certain percent of damage caused to the target to the paladin; really only useful in situations where a paladin is effected by a CC that can be broken by damage.
Quote:
2 - Any extra energy that you gain from BF/Haste can get vented back into extra damage, again under effect of your trinket
Not if its capping, capped energy is wasted energy.
Melee - 100% of tank threat, passing tank will pull aggro.
Caster - 130% of tank threat, passing will pull aggro.
Caster - 130% of tank threat, passing will pull aggro.
Quote:
It's better to use feint than to cry about how the tank sucks!
I disagree. To me it's better to use Feint until the fight is over, then ask the tank about his threat rotations.
Whining gets you nowhere, agreed. But communication and solutions make everyone a better player.
And, to be honest, I've been on runs where I've had to down-grade my weapons to deal with low TPS from the tank. Sucks, but it happens even with guild runs from time to time.
FreeTrial wrote:
Melee - 100% of tank threat, passing tank will pull aggro.
Caster - 130% of tank threat, passing will pull aggro.
Caster - 130% of tank threat, passing will pull aggro.
Varies on boss.
Most bosses are 110%.
Makaro wrote:
Do you have a paladin for Blessing of Sacrifice? If not, get one in your raid. But your tanks probably do still suck.
Farmed kara last night in under 3 hours, no pally for salv. Had a geared warrior MT and a warrior in greens learning the fights for OT (never had any aggro). I didn't hold back, and our biggest DPS dealer, a shammy doing 1100+, only had to back off on a few boss fights. Point being to the OP, your tank just sucks at holding aggro. Period.
Recent Visitors: 123
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (123)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Dealing with agro
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC