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#27 Jun 11 2008 at 6:59 AM Rating: Good
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
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Blah blah blah why am I in this forum when I don't know **** about this class blah blah blah


My tanks are fantastical, homefry. But, when I'm specced PvE and decked out in full raid buffs (Salv included) and have my trinkets all proccing with the 'Goose, I can and have yanked aggro with a HUGE WF critical strike followed by more white damage criticals.

Go back to your rogue forum and teach someone how to be amazing at so very little. You talk down to people while trying to be clever and you aren't, you are an annoying brat who thinks his Arena rating makes him special, and again I state you aren't. You aren't the least bit helpful nor are you a Shaman nor do you have any clue how to play one, so **** off nubsauce.

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#28 Jun 11 2008 at 7:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Raglu wrote:
Hijack for Stormstrike question:

Is it better for Enhancement Shaman to rotate Flame Shock and Frost Shock to allow the Stormstrike debuff to be used up by Elemental Shaman?
Or to simply Flame Shock every 12 seconds only?

Frost Shock has an additional threat component, and most raids don't bring elemental shamans.

They're certainly viable (but not optimal), but if they're there they'll at least get one charge per SS.


And again you don't know what you are talking about.


Just use your regular rotation, most Elemental Shamans (which get alot of use in raids since they put out A TON of ranged DPS) will get off two spells before you get off that 2nd shock unless you have points in elemental to reduce the CD on the shocks. Either way, its only 9 or 10 secs (based on gear) til another SS is up for you to re-debuff the boss/mob.


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He's not going to be using an Agi totem in raids until he gets good at totem twisting, generally.

His HP is fine; I've seen rogues run stuff with 6k HP (our Fel Leather set has 0 stam on it), so almost 8k should be fine.

I'm going to give you the advice I give to rogues: stats aren't important, DPS is. Itemize for the highest DPS you can, and when your gear is all of T4/5 quality, you'll be ready for ZA/Gruul/Mag.

I'm unaware if there's a shaman DPS spreadsheet or the program like feral druids have, but I'd suggest looking on EJ for it if there is.


Go Away You Idiot. AGI totems boost def/parry/block/crit% all great things for tanks generating threat and avoiding damage. Stats are important, because if he runs the boss in SSC that hits everyone for 8500 dmg or whatever it is with 6k life hes going to be doing 0 dps as a corpse.

I hope they Default all your posts so noone has to read your inane stupidity.
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#29 Jun 11 2008 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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DarkRein wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
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Blah blah blah why am I in this forum when I don't know **** about this class blah blah blah


My tanks are fantastical, homefry. But, when I'm specced PvE and decked out in full raid buffs (Salv included) and have my trinkets all proccing with the 'Goose, I can and have yanked aggro with a HUGE WF critical strike followed by more white damage criticals.

Go back to your rogue forum and teach someone how to be amazing at so very little. You talk down to people while trying to be clever and you aren't, you are an annoying brat who thinks his Arena rating makes him special, and again I state you aren't. You aren't the least bit helpful nor are you a Shaman nor do you have any clue how to play one, so **** off nubsauce.

Yup, I don't know **** about the class, except that I seem to know the class better than you.

DarkRein wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Raglu wrote:
Hijack for Stormstrike question:

Is it better for Enhancement Shaman to rotate Flame Shock and Frost Shock to allow the Stormstrike debuff to be used up by Elemental Shaman?
Or to simply Flame Shock every 12 seconds only?

Frost Shock has an additional threat component, and most raids don't bring elemental shamans.

They're certainly viable (but not optimal), but if they're there they'll at least get one charge per SS.


And again you don't know what you are talking about.


Just use your regular rotation, most Elemental Shamans (which get alot of use in raids since they put out A TON of ranged DPS) will get off two spells before you get off that 2nd shock unless you have points in elemental to reduce the CD on the shocks. Either way, its only 9 or 10 secs (based on gear) til another SS is up for you to re-debuff the boss/mob.

Uh, that's pretty much what I said, except for the elemental shaman part.

They put up mediocre DPS compared to other ranged DPS. I'd rather have a good mage or lock instead of a good ele shaman. If forced to choose between an amazing ele shaman and a mediocre lock/mage, I'd pick the ele shaman, but I've seen a grand total of 1 good ele shaman outside of arena.

DarkRein wrote:
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He's not going to be using an Agi totem in raids until he gets good at totem twisting, generally.

His HP is fine; I've seen rogues run stuff with 6k HP (our Fel Leather set has 0 stam on it), so almost 8k should be fine.

I'm going to give you the advice I give to rogues: stats aren't important, DPS is. Itemize for the highest DPS you can, and when your gear is all of T4/5 quality, you'll be ready for ZA/Gruul/Mag.

I'm unaware if there's a shaman DPS spreadsheet or the program like feral druids have, but I'd suggest looking on EJ for it if there is.


Go Away You Idiot. AGI totems boost def/parry/block/crit% all great things for tanks generating threat and avoiding damage. Stats are important, because if he runs the boss in SSC that hits everyone for 8500 dmg or whatever it is with 6k life hes going to be doing 0 dps as a corpse.

I hope they Default all your posts so noone has to read your inane stupidity.

Enh shamans aren't going to be used in a tank group unless you've got more than 1-2 in the raid, in which case they're generally a waste as you'll be missing out on all the DPS group buffs (i.e. you'll be getting commanding should instead of battle shout, you might get LotP from a bear tank, and you definitely won't get Sanc Aura or Ferocious Inspiration or Drums of Battle unless you have them yourself). If you can put up more than 1k DPS in the tank group, please let me know.

My stupidity is from a rogue in T6 with T6 raiding experience in building raids effectively for raid DPS. I also raided into T3 in vanilla WoW. Tell me, how's your grasp on shaman mechanics?
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#30 Jun 11 2008 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Eh, I was going on 36 hours of no sleep when I posted earlier which tends to make my posts sharper than they need to be.

But, I still say you are an idiot when it comes to Shamans.

All of your posts in here were full of faulty info or just plain inaccurate.

And for your information the Shaman we bring for the tank group usually finishes in the top 5 dps wise behind my own Shaman a hunter and 2 rogues who are all being totem buffed by me. But thats because his job is to develop threat and help the tanks with added Defensive stats, not do damage. Also, Bloodlust = teh love for any raid, thats why we usually have an Elemental Shammy for the caster dps group, me for the melee and a 2nd Enhance for the tanks. It's not necessary to run our way, but with 5 locks and 4 paladins, almost everything dies insanely fast, I remember way back we did Bagtheridon and dropped him in under 8 minutes, and at the time we weren't nearly as well geared, nor as well oiled a 25 raid squad as I would have liked.

I know my role, most Shamans understand their role, I just wish you'd leave here and know your role, Jabroni. =)
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#31 Jun 11 2008 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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DarkRein wrote:
Eh, I was going on 36 hours of no sleep when I posted earlier which tends to make my posts sharper than they need to be.

But, I still say you are an idiot when it comes to Shamans.

All of your posts in here were full of faulty info or just plain inaccurate.

And for your information the Shaman we bring for the tank group usually finishes in the top 5 dps wise behind my own Shaman a hunter and 2 rogues who are all being totem buffed by me. But thats because his job is to develop threat and help the tanks with added Defensive stats, not do damage. Also, Bloodlust = teh love for any raid, thats why we usually have an Elemental Shammy for the caster dps group, me for the melee and a 2nd Enhance for the tanks. It's not necessary to run our way, but with 5 locks and 4 paladins, almost everything dies insanely fast, I remember way back we did Bagtheridon and dropped him in under 8 minutes, and at the time we weren't nearly as well geared, nor as well oiled a 25 raid squad as I would have liked.

I know my role, most Shamans understand their role, I just wish you'd leave here and know your role, Jabroni. =)

Where was my faulty info?

Honestly, point it out; don't just say that some of the info I've posted is wrong.

Protip: If Gaudion and Sin haven't pointed it out yet, it's probably not wrong. They love jumping all over me. Smiley: wink
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#32 Jun 11 2008 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Protip: If Gaudion and Sin haven't pointed it out yet, it's probably not wrong. They love jumping all over me. Smiley: wink

Technically it's usually us defending ourselves and the Shaman class from your, "L2P, suck less, noob," mentality. Case in point, this thread, where you once again had to go out of your way and pick a fight to prove... something. I don't know, what were you trying to accomplish there? Just trying to know more as usual, I assume.

Perspective is a wonderful thing, no?
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#33 Jun 16 2008 at 3:08 AM Rating: Decent
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@topic

I personally think that your unbuffed Stats are ok for Kara.

You definitly lacking Crit + AP for Zul Aman, but we all started somewhere ;-)

Feel free to rotate FS an ES, don´t care about who consumes the charges.

Totem twisting in a 10 person raid is not neccessary. WF or AGI, depending
on your group.
As soon as you hit decent stats (say 1400 AP and 28-30% Crit.), you should
see yourself not just as a supporter. You are capeable of doing al LOT of DpS, got fo it !

You can also balance your gear between AP,crit,haste,armor penetration just with
the awesome badge-gear + Zul items.

I can´t provide the direkt link to my profile from here. Maybe just look it up
yousrelf: Char = Gavain / Realm = Forscherliga

We raid Zul+Kara an I am able to provide the same damage as our T6 Mage+Hunter.
We are always very close together at the end of the raid.

The badge fist weapons are ideal, no better weapons available until BT or S3.

Just fit into your role as it feels most comfortable. If you are thinking of yourself as
a "best possible supporter", you can "levae" a bit of your own DpS on the floor and
concentrate on that. I personally go for max. DpS and I think a lot of people still
underestimate whats possible with a decent geared and skilled Enhancement Shaman.
And I have to admit that I have seen a lot of players who are not providing a good
DpS, for whatsoever reasons (skill/gear/talents...just pick one^^)

PS: sorry for whatsoever mistakes...must have been ages since I WROTE something in English ;-)

Edited, Jun 16th 2008 7:38am by Enhancemaster
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#34 Jun 16 2008 at 5:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Enhancemaster wrote:
We raid Zul+Kara an I am able to provide the same damage as our T6 Mage+Hunter.
We are always very close together at the end of the raid.

Just so people don't get unreasonable expectations, there's no way a T4/5-geared shaman will come close to a skilled T6 arcane mage or BM hunter.

They'd have to be pretty bad for that to happen.

Edited, Jun 16th 2008 6:16am by Theophany
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#35 Jun 17 2008 at 4:21 AM Rating: Decent
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I think maybe the problem is that theo and his rogue have never played with a good shaman before???
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#36 Jun 17 2008 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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I merely wanted to pont out that you can see a well geared and skilled Enhancement Shaman
as more than "just" a supporter, but also as a Top-DDler.

This is not about "this class makes more damage than the other and my p... is the largest" ;p

The Mage is deep fire (raid skilled for 25 raids, so mobs don´t always live long enough for him
to maximize his dmg.). And there are a few points in ZA where he has to take care of his sheeps=no dmg.
We usually end up with the same total amount of dmg. His dps is about 1200-1300 (recount).
The T6 BM hunter is usually a bit ahead of me, showing about 1200+ dps (recount).
Both people raid regulary in the best 25-raids on our realm and are very skilled players.
But I doubt that they use full flasks/pots/food for our ZA-runs, which is what I am doing.

DpS calculation with recount is a bit funny, because I usually hit 1000-1100 dps, but staying
ahead of other classes, which are calculated with 1200+ dps. I think thats because of the
big dmg-gaps of our class.

So you are absolutely able to deliver top-dps as an Enhancement Shaman, 100% competetive to
any other class with the same gear-level.
But there are an awful lot of Elemental+Enhancement Shamans on our server who are not
performing very well, so I can fully understand Theo´s comment.

And of course there´s always a bigger fish and someone who will be better than you ;-)

Edited, Jun 17th 2008 11:22am by Enhancemaster

Edited, Jun 17th 2008 11:31am by Enhancemaster
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#37 Jun 17 2008 at 7:51 AM Rating: Decent
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DarkRein wrote:
If those are your unbuffed stats you are golden in my opinion outside of your HPs, and ya the rogue will say "Awww don't worry bout it.", but you know how easy it is to wtfcrit and spike the threat meter, at under 8k life unbuffed you will be 1 shot everytime so, ya some S3 ftw if you can.

My guild runs a regular "A" squad to ZA, SSC, TK etc. So we allow lesser geared guildmembers to run with us so they can acquire the upgrades we've already gotten. My point being, if your guild is on the same level as you or only a bit better, get the fist weps and your T4 shoulders + gloves before giving it a go.

The key to Enhancement is supporting your fellow dps, avoiding threat blooms and being prepared for interrupts when necessary. Everything else is gravy.

If you're spike-aggroing over a tank:

1) you're bad.

2) you're not watching your threat meter.

3) your tank is awful.

Take your pick which applies here.


this isnt rogue where you can control your dps to an extent. at the start of a fight, or when switching to the CC'd target, if windfury procs and they get multiple crits they will spike and die fast (especially if stormstrike was involved). the triple crit effect is kinda like playing russian roulette at the start of any encounter. so they have to make a choice, take a chance at some extra dps to keep high on meters, or hold back for 4-6 seconds for a second shield slam to go down.

Edited, Jun 17th 2008 10:52am by EnthalpyTheBurninator
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#38 Jun 17 2008 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Enhancemaster wrote:
DpS calculation with recount is a bit funny, because I usually hit 1000-1100 dps, but staying
ahead of other classes, which are calculated with 1200+ dps. I think thats because of the
big dmg-gaps of our class.

For as obsessed as a lot of people are with the meter, it's always amusing to me that so many of them actually have very little idea how to read the meter and apply it relative to their in-game effectiveness.

Meters keep track of two things: DPS (damage per second) and total damage done, which a lot of stupid people will often confuse for the same thing. A DPS Shaman won't hit the damage per second output of a lot of other classes out there (assuming equal gear, skills, raid buffs, etc.), but they can frequently come in close to the top or the top itself in actual damage done. The reason for this is pointed out by Enhancemaster:

Enhancemaster wrote:
... there are a few points in ZA where he has to take care of his sheeps=no dmg.

Unless you're needed to focus your Earth Shocks as interrupts, there's not a whole lot for a DPS Shaman to do in a raid. Lay your totems every two minutes or so which will take a couple seconds of your time, but other than that, you'll be spending your entire time blasting the current focus mob. DPS classes assigned to CC have to be occupied with their CC first, with DPS as an afterthought between CC's when they are able. For trash pulls, CC breaks or mismanagement is far more likely to wipe a raid than a lack of DPS. The only time a lack of DPS can really hurt you is on bosses.
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#39 Jun 17 2008 at 10:41 PM Rating: Default
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DPS meters are such a BS assessment of raid performance it's not even funny.

Take this for example, an enhancement shaman who totem twists is likely buffing the crap out of melee dps, but totally gimping their personal dps.

I hate when people in the middle of a raid are like "whatz mah DPS? Show me the DPS meterz, cauze I'm leet". Or when people use it as a basis to try to roll on gear is ridiculous. If the raid is progressing and not wiping on bosses, quite frankly who give s flaming crap about DPS?
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#40 Jun 18 2008 at 3:22 AM Rating: Default
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Enhancemaster wrote:
I merely wanted to pont out that you can see a well geared and skilled Enhancement Shaman
as more than "just" a supporter, but also as a Top-DDler.

This is not about "this class makes more damage than the other and my p... is the largest" ;p

The Mage is deep fire (raid skilled for 25 raids, so mobs don´t always live long enough for him
to maximize his dmg.). And there are a few points in ZA where he has to take care of his sheeps=no dmg.
We usually end up with the same total amount of dmg. His dps is about 1200-1300 (recount).
The T6 BM hunter is usually a bit ahead of me, showing about 1200+ dps (recount).
Both people raid regulary in the best 25-raids on our realm and are very skilled players.
But I doubt that they use full flasks/pots/food for our ZA-runs, which is what I am doing.

I'm sorry, but I'm not trying to stroke my e-peen here.

I'm telling you that no, an enhancement shaman won't do as well as an equally geared and skilled hunter, rogue, fury warrior, warlock, arcane mage, etc. There just isn't the power behind the spec.

You're like ret paladins (which are viable, before we get off-topic on a tangent), or feral druids. You buff people a literal sh*tton and are therefore very worth the raid spot. Unfortunately, you're not going to be pulling 1800+ DPS like most top-tier DPS will in T6 content, therefore you're considered a buffing class in raids. Vital to the raid, but not one of the stars.

And a T6 BM hunter showing only 1200 DPS is pathetic, BTW. 1200 DPS is the kind of DPS our BM hunter puts up in a fight where he's constantly running, like Supremus. And he's not even really a T6 hunter. He only has 5 pieces of gear that are from T6 or equivalents, the rest is T5 or T4. Also, fire isn't the best raid spec in T6. Arcane is.

Check out our enhancement shaman, BTW. She's not the greatest, but she knows how to do everything about the class except how to totem twist. Look at Teron Gorefiend, the best test of DPS in T6. She's in the top 10, but she's nowhere near the top 4 in terms of DPS. That's an example of where an enhancement shaman should be.

Edited, Jun 18th 2008 4:22am by Theophany
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#41 Jun 23 2008 at 9:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Theo is right when he says that enh shamans don't hit the dps of rogues/fury wars etc.
however. without our wf, they wouldn't be hitting that dps either.
so let's put it this way. we do a very good amount of dps. while helping significantly increase the dps of every other melee dpsers.
when rogues, for example, don't do much in helping other classes with their dps.
fair enough?

Edited, Jun 24th 2008 1:06am by shaam
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