So yesterday the daily heroic was UB and a few guildies decide to group up for a quick run ( they were in mostly t4/t5 gear ). I being the new resto in guild have been working on my healing set vigoriously lately and have reach the 1k heal mark. So, they needed a healer and I offered my services. Note that im new to the heroic and raid scene but just 3 days ago I ran Heroic UB and cleared it no problem. (love pally tanks)
So we enter the instance group was Prot Warrior, fire mage, lock, hunter and myself. All guildies. Longer story short, we had 3 wipes before the first boss, mostly due to the warrior only tanking 1 mob at a time and the CC'ers were sloppy and slow. Also WTH, if theres 3 mobs and 1 is CC'd can the warrior tank handle 2 of them right? I would pull hate the moment I got my 3 stack Lifebloom and rejuv up, I shouldnt be pulling hate at all that early. If i wait more then 5 seconds for the tank to get hate then im forceed to use a Regrowth, or a NS+HT asap or esle he dies before i get all my HOTS up.
Now how the @$&! do I get all the blame!!!!!
I whispered the tank to try and use Thunderclap more and rotate sunders in attempt to hold arggo on all of them, his gear was well beyond par for this run and I assumed Warriors could tank a few mobs at a time. Previously known i can heal a pally tank with 3 mobs on him np.
Cleared the first boss easy, but wiped again on the nagas for a mage pulled hate and all **** went loose. Then the warrior yells at me for my spec and not being PVE Resto. Given im 11/11/38 pvp resto, yes i dont have tree of life but the difference seems silly as PVE simply has better mana effiency, more spirit and a upgraded healing touch. Sorry but i dont see how that would make a diffence anyway what so ever. my lack of mana or spirit didn't cuase any of the wipes. So I said kindly as I could at the time that im going to disband b/c they're my guildmates im not going to curse them out or tell them to F off, but that pumpus warrior gives me the leet ******* language of "kbai".
I left with my head held high, but after sleeping on it... was it my fault? the mage pulled hate sometimes and the hunter sucked at trapping.
Also why does a warrior need all this CC when a Pally tank just goes out there and tanks each pull without it?
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Edited, Aug 27th 2008 12:35am by kawainui
Edited, Aug 27th 2008 12:35am by kawainui
I'm only qualified to answer your last question (in case it wasn't rhetorical). A pally tank is an aoe tank with large up-front aggro. A warrior tank is a superior single-target tank that needs time to build aggro and has a harder time tanking multiple mobs. Warriors and druids benefit from cc, but cc can be a hindrance to pallies. Doesn't surprise me the rhythm was different.
I'll let someone who's healed heroics diagnose the remainder of what went wrong.
I'll let someone who's healed heroics diagnose the remainder of what went wrong.
#4REDACTED,
Posted: Jun 03 2008 at 11:59 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well personally i think warriors arent good with tanking. if i could choose i would pick a pally or a druid because they can tank easily. even though pallys take a little more skill then druids.
In most situations:
The tank dies, it's your fault.
You die, it's the tank's fault.
The dps die, it's their own damn fault.
Your spec is not optimal, but if the tank cannot hold hate, you cannot be blamed for it.
The tank dies, it's your fault.
You die, it's the tank's fault.
The dps die, it's their own damn fault.
Your spec is not optimal, but if the tank cannot hold hate, you cannot be blamed for it.
Nuit Midril - White Mage/Scholar on Ultros
Nuit the Insane! - Retired Druid on Sentinels.
Ombre - Retired Dragoon/bard on Phoenix.
johnnylarosa wrote:
Well personally i think warriors arent good with tanking. if i could choose i would pick a pally or a druid because they can tank easily. even though pallys take a little more skill then druids.
Well thanks for making that broad sweeping statement with nothing to back it up. You know there's a reason why most raiding guilds prefer warrior tanks for boss tanking and progression runs, and it's not because they're bad tanks. Paladins are hands down the best AoE tanks in the game, and they can make most heroics a joke, whereas warrior and druid tanks have to work a little harder, especially if they outgear the instance by a considerable margin.
Regarding the OP, a warrior tank should have no problem holding 3 mobs, assuming the DPS is focused on the main target. Thunder Clap can easily hold healing aggro for 3 mobs, unless you're just doing a crazy amount of healing. Phoenix was pretty much right on with his comments. Sounds to me like you had a lousy tank and lousy CC.
Nilrruc - I fully understand your pain. No - it was not your fault. Sadly resto druids have a much bigger problem with aggro than the other healers do and we are very squishy (unlike pallies and Shammies).
While it may seem pally tanks are just better than the others the truth is that when a tank outgears an instance a pally is best. He doesnt have to worry about rage generation and he can AoE tank multiple mobs. So 2 equally geared tanks - 1 warrior/druid, 1 pally - in T5 gear will have very different experience in heroics. There are certain tanks I refuse to run with even in my guild as they cannot generate enough threat on more than one target.
Personally I love to run all 10 man and 5 man with our 2 pally tanks as they make my life as a healer AND as a dpser (on my lock) that much easier. Always fun seeing our pally tank pull a mob and have almost an instant 6k threat.
But in raids? T5 and higher our warriors are still kings for boss fights. They have better survivability than other tanks. I know in our first Maggie kill the other day we would not have made it if the tank hadnt been a warrior who could Last Stand and shield wall to help out the healers.
And as to your spec? unless you are planning on doing a lot of arena I would suggest going a 11/0/50 or something build and definitely grabbing ToL. ToL is an extra 150 healing in raids and a huge increase in mana efficiency.
To quote PhoenixOmbre:
The tank dies, it's your fault.
You die, it's the tank's fault.
The dps die, it's their own damn fault
QFT!!
Hope this helps - enjoy resto (I always come back to resto in the end).
Peace out
Aldaran
While it may seem pally tanks are just better than the others the truth is that when a tank outgears an instance a pally is best. He doesnt have to worry about rage generation and he can AoE tank multiple mobs. So 2 equally geared tanks - 1 warrior/druid, 1 pally - in T5 gear will have very different experience in heroics. There are certain tanks I refuse to run with even in my guild as they cannot generate enough threat on more than one target.
Personally I love to run all 10 man and 5 man with our 2 pally tanks as they make my life as a healer AND as a dpser (on my lock) that much easier. Always fun seeing our pally tank pull a mob and have almost an instant 6k threat.
But in raids? T5 and higher our warriors are still kings for boss fights. They have better survivability than other tanks. I know in our first Maggie kill the other day we would not have made it if the tank hadnt been a warrior who could Last Stand and shield wall to help out the healers.
And as to your spec? unless you are planning on doing a lot of arena I would suggest going a 11/0/50 or something build and definitely grabbing ToL. ToL is an extra 150 healing in raids and a huge increase in mana efficiency.
To quote PhoenixOmbre:
Quote:
The tank dies, it's your fault.
You die, it's the tank's fault.
The dps die, it's their own damn fault
QFT!!
Hope this helps - enjoy resto (I always come back to resto in the end).
Peace out
Aldaran
PhoenixOmbre wrote:
In most situations:
The tank dies, it's your fault.
You die, it's the tank's fault.
The dps die, it's their own damn fault.
Your spec is not optimal, but if the tank cannot hold hate, you cannot be blamed for it.
The tank dies, it's your fault.
You die, it's the tank's fault.
The dps die, it's their own damn fault.
Your spec is not optimal, but if the tank cannot hold hate, you cannot be blamed for it.
This is soo true. I wish more people realized that this is true.
To address the tanking types issue, I have both a bear tank and a pally tank and have a good amount of exp with warrior tanks as I have many warrior friends who come to me for advise and have had to become proficient with warrior tanking whether I liked it or not. That being said:
Although a pally will have a much easier time tanking multiple mobs (easier as in less work, and less skill required), a bear or warrior CAN do just as well with the same pull, same mobs, and same party makeup. They will have to be more skilled to pull it off, but they should have no problems at all. Warriors can multi-target-tank just as well as a pally IF THEY ARE GOOD. The notion that warriors and bears can't tank multiple mobs as well as a pally comes from 2 things. (1.) Pallys do better based on agro type, reactive damage and AoE abilities designed to hold more mobs on them. This is true, however, (2.) Most warriors and bears that suck and cant hold multiple mobs give those few skilled ones a bad name by claiming its a class or ability based limitation when in reality, they suck and that it just an excuse to continue sucking.
I guess what Im trying to say is this:
Its not your fault, your tank sucked. Warriors, Pallys and Bears can all hold agro on multiple mobs just as well as each other, some just require more skill to do so.
Tank sounds a bit suspect, honestly. Holding 2-3 UB mobs should not be a problem in T5 gear. And a warrior who's gotten that far (even if he DPSed his way into that level of tanking gear and never tanked an instance before that in his life) should understand the concept of applying threat to multiple mobs. Youre either rotating sunders in a raid, or youre timing your WW so it (hopefully) doesnt pull a secondary mob before the tank has established threat.
The only possible justification I can think of is maybe he effectively outgeared the instance and suffered from a bit of avoidance-caused rage starvation... but a) that's a real easy fix (slap on a piece or two of DPS gear) and b) if that were the case you wouldnt expect him to take the kind of damage that you'd need to cast big, aggro-heavy heals to keep him up through.
I havent tanked heroics with Resto Druids much, so dont exactly know how the heal aggro mechanics may differ from a priest (my warrior static's with one). But there's something amiss with that scenario and my guess is that your tank wasnt using a proper, rage-efficient threat rotation or was just not bothering with the 2nd/3rd mob.
Edited, Jun 4th 2008 7:02pm by soobooboo
The only possible justification I can think of is maybe he effectively outgeared the instance and suffered from a bit of avoidance-caused rage starvation... but a) that's a real easy fix (slap on a piece or two of DPS gear) and b) if that were the case you wouldnt expect him to take the kind of damage that you'd need to cast big, aggro-heavy heals to keep him up through.
I havent tanked heroics with Resto Druids much, so dont exactly know how the heal aggro mechanics may differ from a priest (my warrior static's with one). But there's something amiss with that scenario and my guess is that your tank wasnt using a proper, rage-efficient threat rotation or was just not bothering with the 2nd/3rd mob.
Edited, Jun 4th 2008 7:02pm by soobooboo
Eh, I know how you feel. Last night I was doing Heroic SV, the mage pulled aggro while standing next to our warrior on a bog lord and got 2-shotted by it, then blamed me. NS was down, and I couldn't do anything, seeing as the mage died in like 2 seconds.
tank/cc fault not yours. ANY tank over geared on an instances is a problem. i'm only kara and some badge gear on my pally and i ran cot1 for a guildie,thinking it would be cake now. wrong i lost more mobs due to lack of mana. if i aint getting hit hard enough and getting mana return i aint gonna tank ****. finaly i put on some of my healing gear for less avoidance more mana regen and some extra spell damage. i know when i was lvling my warrior up some and rage staved i did what others told me and took off my pants it seemed to help but it's not recomended by some. any class of tank should be able to hold 2 mobs no if's and or butts. after that it will start takeing alittle skill and good dps who actually assist the tank.
Scholar
21 posts
Thanks for all the helpful replies, really im taking all this to heart.
I've grown to know that this Warrior is in-fact.... a D-bag, so I'll avoid runs with him for now on
But as I self reflected on the learning to coop with warrior tanks, I realized it was my first time ever with a War tank. As I leveled as Feral and tanked every run myself or with my best friend who is a prot pally. So personally I have much to learn as I progress.
Heck I've never even got to dps as feral and my first dps run was a Dreamstate build.
Im working on getting my healing up with the Tribal LW craft set and doing PVP and BG's to get some spare parts
More importantly I've come to realized that even though I enjoy healing, and honestly the thanks/gratitude you get after a good run is noting better. The fact is I cant trust other people to do stuff properly, I guess thats why I took up healing in the first place becuase when I tanked I was pissed how some healers just sucked
So now Im working on a PVE Tank set lol, I would be tank and healer if I could honestly. It also seems my guild has an abundance or healers and needs tanks.
Again, thanks for the help and if anyone would contribute I would be grateful for your advice
I've grown to know that this Warrior is in-fact.... a D-bag, so I'll avoid runs with him for now on
But as I self reflected on the learning to coop with warrior tanks, I realized it was my first time ever with a War tank. As I leveled as Feral and tanked every run myself or with my best friend who is a prot pally. So personally I have much to learn as I progress.
Heck I've never even got to dps as feral and my first dps run was a Dreamstate build.
Im working on getting my healing up with the Tribal LW craft set and doing PVP and BG's to get some spare parts
More importantly I've come to realized that even though I enjoy healing, and honestly the thanks/gratitude you get after a good run is noting better. The fact is I cant trust other people to do stuff properly, I guess thats why I took up healing in the first place becuase when I tanked I was pissed how some healers just sucked
So now Im working on a PVE Tank set lol, I would be tank and healer if I could honestly. It also seems my guild has an abundance or healers and needs tanks.
Again, thanks for the help and if anyone would contribute I would be grateful for your advice
Dont go for the Tribal LW-Set for your healing. With 1k healing you can go Kara and Equip you like hell ;-D
And BTW: ITS NOT HATE.... ITS AGGRO!!!!!!
And BTW: ITS NOT HATE.... ITS AGGRO!!!!!!
PhoenixOmbre wrote:
Although a pally will have a much easier time tanking multiple mobs (easier as in less work, and less skill required), a bear or warrior CAN do just as well with the same pull, same mobs, and same party makeup. They will have to be more skilled to pull it off, but they should have no problems at all. Warriors can multi-target-tank just as well as a pally IF THEY ARE GOOD. The notion that warriors and bears can't tank multiple mobs as well as a pally comes from 2 things. (1.) Pallys do better based on agro type, reactive damage and AoE abilities designed to hold more mobs on them. This is true, however, (2.) Most warriors and bears that suck and cant hold multiple mobs give those few skilled ones a bad name by claiming its a class or ability based limitation when in reality, they suck and that it just an excuse to continue sucking.
I guess what Im trying to say is this:
Its not your fault, your tank sucked. Warriors, Pallys and Bears can all hold agro on multiple mobs just as well as each other, some just require more skill to do so.
I have to disagree. What you are saying is that it is possible for Warriors and Druids to maintain aggro on multiple mobs, with difficulty, whereas Pallies barely have to try. Wouldn't that mean, by definition, that Pallies are better at holding aggro on multiple mobs?
I never get tired of the multi-mob tanking debate. :) Or thread hijacks.
My feeling is that whatever shortcomings Warriors might have as far as tanking 3+ mobs are AI-based. If mobs didnt stand more or less on top of each other, we could distribute threat like we were dealing blackjack, and the cries of Warrior tanks being OP would crash the o-boards.
Because they do (bunch up/stand on top of each other) I feel like one of my main shortcomings is the amount of time i waste trying to get the right mob targetted when I should be juggling cooldowns.
Edited, Jun 5th 2008 4:03pm by soobooboo
My feeling is that whatever shortcomings Warriors might have as far as tanking 3+ mobs are AI-based. If mobs didnt stand more or less on top of each other, we could distribute threat like we were dealing blackjack, and the cries of Warrior tanks being OP would crash the o-boards.
Because they do (bunch up/stand on top of each other) I feel like one of my main shortcomings is the amount of time i waste trying to get the right mob targetted when I should be juggling cooldowns.
Edited, Jun 5th 2008 4:03pm by soobooboo
Coming from a Hunter's perspective in Heroics, with a mage and a hunter in the group on a 3-pull, there was no need to have 2 mobs on the tank. If the Warrior outgeared the dungeon and wanted two mobs on him to up his rage generation, he's being foolish. Heroics, regardless of how well you are geared, have an extremely low margin for error. DPS who pull aggro die. Fast. Undergeared tanks die fast, or cause their healers to die fast from spamming heals and pulling aggro. Overgeared players who think they're hot sh*t and bite off more than they can chew have nobody to blame but themselves.
I've healed non-heroics on my Shaman and had rogues blast me when they die because they pulled threat repeatedly throughout a fight and my mana reserves couldn't keep up. When you die and the idea of dying irks you, it's not hard to try and find someone else to blame. Sad thing is, when someone drops the ball and gets themselves killed, if they start pointing the finger at you they're never going to accept that they would have been better off playing their own damn class/role properly.
I think you made the right decision to avoid the Warrior. Being geared the way you say he is, he's probably of the notion that he can do no wrong in a heroic and if something goes sideways, it has to be someone else's fault.
Edited, Jun 10th 2008 9:20am by AureliusSir
I've healed non-heroics on my Shaman and had rogues blast me when they die because they pulled threat repeatedly throughout a fight and my mana reserves couldn't keep up. When you die and the idea of dying irks you, it's not hard to try and find someone else to blame. Sad thing is, when someone drops the ball and gets themselves killed, if they start pointing the finger at you they're never going to accept that they would have been better off playing their own damn class/role properly.
I think you made the right decision to avoid the Warrior. Being geared the way you say he is, he's probably of the notion that he can do no wrong in a heroic and if something goes sideways, it has to be someone else's fault.
Edited, Jun 10th 2008 9:20am by AureliusSir
Scholar
37 posts
Quote:
with a mage and a hunter in the group on a 3-pull, there was no need to have 2 mobs on the tank. If the Warrior outgeared the dungeon and wanted two mobs on him to up his rage generation, he's being foolish. Heroics, regardless of how well you are geared, have an extremely low margin for error
I'd have to disagree a little. Heroics are like most other instances, the better geared the group...the more room there is for error. I'm not well versed on warrior tank mechanics, however from a feral tank view I often prefer to take 2-3 mobs out of a 3 mob pull (unless one of them fears/heals/etc., and dependent on the amount of damage I'm taking + healer capabilities)
-It keeps my rage generation up
-It allows me to generate threat on the other mobs so that the dps can immediately move to and open up on them
-In larger pulls it makes for 1-2 less cc's you're avoiding breaking
-Allows me to work on multi mob tanking
-Makes the run faster
Was that tank prot specced? Any real tank thats the right level and has ok gear should be able to hold aggro off the healer as long as the healer isn't healing the hunter who is meleeing the off target mob. As everyone has said, the healer dies it's the tanks fault. Tank dies it's the healers fault. Sometimes you're just undergeared, under level for a instance and if everyone isn't spot on you won't make it. One time we were struggling. We dumped the lock got a druid, didn't matter who we got, and bam we smoked that instance. 1/5th of our team was sucking.
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