A few weeks ago I made a thread inquiring about what ways to build threat were the best. The thread developed into a very good discussion of druid tanking as a whole and I am glad to have seen everyone's input on the matter.
However some problems still exist with my druid tanking skills which leave me at a loss. Mainly, it is my TPS according to Omen. Generally it is very low and I cannot figure out why. Tonight in regular Steam Vaults I couldn't even break 300. At other times, tanking in heroics or offtanking in kara I can occasionally get to 800ish and, once in a while, I will see over 1000 for a brief second or two. Generally though I can only put out 400-600 TPS.
Typically on any pull I will Enrage (if it's up and my rage bar is empty) then either use FFF, Hurricane or Moonfire depending on the pull. I will then immediately begin to mangle, lacerate and apply swipes, tabbing to each target to lay a few lacerates then switching back to the one marked with a skull. I will generously use maul when I am not short of rage, I will hit them all with demoralizing roar early and I keep growl and feral charge at the ready for when one of the mobs breaks off from me. Keep in mind I also always will growl the primary target (or whichever gets to me first) before beginning to use any other skill at the beginning of each pull.
Yet....this is all hard as hell. My TPS is low and targets like to break off me very quickly, often before I can even mangle or lacerate the primary target. Right off the bat I've got healers and mages and melee getting pounded on when it seems like I'm doing everything that I am supposed to be doing.
One of my problems might be the sort of tanking I am used to from previous games. To a limited degree Everquest and almost exclusively FFXI. In FFXI every pull was a single pull (at least in the EXP parties). Even a single add, depending on the makeup of the group, could spell death for the entire party. Therefore I am very used to the notion of keeping the mobs on me at all times, at all costs. Losing aggro = failure.
So basically what I want to know is this: in WoW is multiple mob tanking supposed to be coupled with the frequent possibility of losses of aggro to secondary targets? Is it generally something that happens to warriors (not so much paladins of course) and is, overall, an accepted fact of life? Or am I only good if I can keep four mobs glued to me at all times even when the mage is doing 800 DPS and the healer is dropping crit heals like there's tomorrow?
Edited, Jun 3rd 2008 3:28am by Tavarde
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Edited, Aug 27th 2008 12:37am by kawainui
Edited, Aug 27th 2008 12:37am by kawainui
For the most part, sounds like textbook tanking, in which case you might just be outgeared by your DPS and/or healer. Here's the few comments that made me go "hmm, that might be the problem..."
You shouldn't have to Enrage at the start of most pulls. Furor gets you a little bit of rage off the bat, and then when your DPS waits a few seconds for you to dish out and take a few hits, you've got rage for attacks and time to build some threat.
First concern is number of mobs you're trying to tank. You mention below trying to keep four mobs on you on a regular basis. With decent party composition you should rarely be tanking more then 2 mobs, 3 on occasion, except of course for large groups of non-elites. If you're tanking four all the time your healer will be throwing out more AoE threat than usual.
Second comment is that that sounds like overkill on the secondary mobs...you should be able to start stacking threat on your primary target faster. Usually Swipe will take care of healing aggro on the one or two secondary tank targets, if you find that's not the case then throw a quick lacerate on each. And if you're tanking that many mobs DPS needs to hold off before going all out on skull. And at any time if they pull a secondary they're using AoE and should EXPECT to die.
Don't do that. Save it. Growl does NOTHING for you when applied to a mob that is already targeting you. Doesn't increase threat, it's a tool exclusively for snapping a mob onto you when it's hitting something squishy.
Briefly losing a mob to an overgeared non-threat-watching DPS is a fact of life, especially in PuGs. Successful tanking is actually as much about the cooperation/coordination of your party as anything you do. Your job is 1) hold uber-aggro on the primary target, 2) get some threat on secondary mobs to overcome healing aggro, and 3) save the healer from anything. Saving DPS when they pull aggro is secondary to the first three things. They need to learn how to focus fire on skull and watch and/or drop threat. You should be able to keep 2-3 mobs on you "at all times" in regular instances. Heroic you shouldn't be tanking more than 1-2 tops.
Edited, Jun 3rd 2008 7:59am by JeeBar
Tavarde wrote:
Typically on any pull I will Enrage (if it's up and my rage bar is empty)
You shouldn't have to Enrage at the start of most pulls. Furor gets you a little bit of rage off the bat, and then when your DPS waits a few seconds for you to dish out and take a few hits, you've got rage for attacks and time to build some threat.
Tavarde wrote:
I will then immediately begin to mangle, lacerate and apply swipes, tabbing to each target to lay a few lacerates then switching back to the one marked with a skull.
First concern is number of mobs you're trying to tank. You mention below trying to keep four mobs on you on a regular basis. With decent party composition you should rarely be tanking more then 2 mobs, 3 on occasion, except of course for large groups of non-elites. If you're tanking four all the time your healer will be throwing out more AoE threat than usual.
Second comment is that that sounds like overkill on the secondary mobs...you should be able to start stacking threat on your primary target faster. Usually Swipe will take care of healing aggro on the one or two secondary tank targets, if you find that's not the case then throw a quick lacerate on each. And if you're tanking that many mobs DPS needs to hold off before going all out on skull. And at any time if they pull a secondary they're using AoE and should EXPECT to die.
Tavarde wrote:
Keep in mind I also always will growl the primary target (or whichever gets to me first) before beginning to use any other skill at the beginning of each pull.
Don't do that. Save it. Growl does NOTHING for you when applied to a mob that is already targeting you. Doesn't increase threat, it's a tool exclusively for snapping a mob onto you when it's hitting something squishy.
Tavarde wrote:
So basically what I want to know is this: in WoW is multiple mob tanking supposed to be coupled with the frequent possibility of losses of aggro to secondary targets? Is it generally something that happens to warriors (not so much paladins of course) and is, overall, an accepted fact of life? Or am I only good if I can keep four mobs glued to me at all times even when the mage is doing 800 DPS and the healer is dropping crit heals like there's tomorrow?
Briefly losing a mob to an overgeared non-threat-watching DPS is a fact of life, especially in PuGs. Successful tanking is actually as much about the cooperation/coordination of your party as anything you do. Your job is 1) hold uber-aggro on the primary target, 2) get some threat on secondary mobs to overcome healing aggro, and 3) save the healer from anything. Saving DPS when they pull aggro is secondary to the first three things. They need to learn how to focus fire on skull and watch and/or drop threat. You should be able to keep 2-3 mobs on you "at all times" in regular instances. Heroic you shouldn't be tanking more than 1-2 tops.
Edited, Jun 3rd 2008 7:59am by JeeBar
Quote:
One of my problems might be the sort of tanking I am used to from previous games. To a limited degree Everquest and almost exclusively FFXI. In FFXI every pull was a single pull (at least in the EXP parties). Even a single add, depending on the makeup of the group, could spell death for the entire party. Therefore I am very used to the notion of keeping the mobs on me at all times, at all costs. Losing aggro = failure.
So basically what I want to know is this: in WoW is multiple mob tanking supposed to be coupled with the frequent possibility of losses of aggro to secondary targets? Is it generally something that happens to warriors (not so much paladins of course) and is, overall, an accepted fact of life? Or am I only good if I can keep four mobs glued to me at all times even when the mage is doing 800 DPS and the healer is dropping crit heals like there's tomorrow?
So basically what I want to know is this: in WoW is multiple mob tanking supposed to be coupled with the frequent possibility of losses of aggro to secondary targets? Is it generally something that happens to warriors (not so much paladins of course) and is, overall, an accepted fact of life? Or am I only good if I can keep four mobs glued to me at all times even when the mage is doing 800 DPS and the healer is dropping crit heals like there's tomorrow?
Having tanked in WoW and FFXI, fighting in general is a lot more chaotic then FFXI. You also have to have a lot more faith in your group. At first I hated big pulls, mobs running rampant. It conflicted with my desire to have all the mobs on me at all times. I had to come to realize, the mage will sheep his target. The hunter will trap his, the rouge will sap, and we'll be okay.
Like JeeBar said, growling is not like provoke (FFXI ability). It took me a while to understand that too. If your holding multiply targets, tab over to a mob that isn't your main target and mangle him to help hold him steady.*
Druids are not AoE tanks, if we have multiple mobs. Even with Swipe, Demoralizing roar, and juggling damage on our targets. Your sometimes still just barely holding them from going after the healer. It only works if your group is targeting your main target and ONLY your main target.
*edit: Fixed; thanks Jeebar. (_ _);
Edited, Jun 4th 2008 2:09pm by GryphonStalker
I don't check my TPS, I base my effectiveness on how well I'm keeping the mobs on me. If you're doing that, you're tanking well.
Now with that said, if you're tanking kara and then dip down into regular instances, you WILL be rage starved simply because normal mobs won't hit you enough or hard enough to generate the rage you need. As posted above, keeping a lower set handy can remedy that. Ugh, another set? You can also simply swap out some of your cat pieces.
Now with that said, if you're tanking kara and then dip down into regular instances, you WILL be rage starved simply because normal mobs won't hit you enough or hard enough to generate the rage you need. As posted above, keeping a lower set handy can remedy that. Ugh, another set? You can also simply swap out some of your cat pieces.
You're further along in tanking than I am, so I'm hesitant to weight in, but....Part of the problem may be the coordination with your DPS. Are they all focusing on your main target or picking their own? I can easily hold three mobs on my feral provided DPS stays on skull. When they start going off-target, my swipes and tab/lacerate (sound familiar?) usually can only hold aggro for so long.
Otherwise, except for the promiscuous use of growl, you seem to be doing everything right. Nothing wrong w enranging once you pull, it gives extra rage and generates hate.
Otherwise, except for the promiscuous use of growl, you seem to be doing everything right. Nothing wrong w enranging once you pull, it gives extra rage and generates hate.
GryphonStalker, Guardian of the Glade wrote:
Like JeeBar said, growling is not like provoke. It took me a while to understand that too. If your holding multiple targets tab over to a mob your not hitting and growl at him to help hold him steady.
I'm sorry if I misunderstand what you're recommending here, but that tip makes it seem like you don't completely understand what Growl does. If that "mob you're not hitting" is already targeting you then Growling at them doesn't do anything. Nothing at all.* If I understand how Growl works correctly (and I'm pretty sure I do) Growl doesn't carry/deliver any threat per se, it just instantly sets your threat to be as high as whoever is currently highest on that mob's list. It doesn't even have the "forces them to attack you for X seconds" mechanic built in. So they turn and attack YOU and you can then Mangle or whatever to grab their attention even further while whoever had attracted their attention lays off 'em or otherwise lowers their threat on that mob.
Tooltip makes that pretty clear I think: "Taunts the target to attack you, but has no effect if the target is already attacking you."
*Some have said that Growl might help hold aggro while you're about to be feared, if you squeeze it off at the right second, but it's never been generally agreed upon so I consider that a moot point.
Tranquility can give you an insane amount of aggro at the start of a fight. The following is probably more trouble than you want to take on most pulls, but when you absolutely need that frontloaded aggro, here's what you can do:
Have the members of your party drop their health by 50-80% of the amount you can heal by casting tranquility. The easiest way for non-Warlocks to do this is to unequip their high-stamina gear, then reequip it.
Stand far back from the mobs being pulled, so that the rest of your party is at the leading edge of your Tranquility radius.
Cast Barkskin and simultaneously have your party members pull the mobs with very low aggro moves--Rank 1 abilities and the like.
Start casting Tranquility.
Jump into bearform just before the mobs reach you.
Tranquility is a high aggro heal, and since you're healing everyone, you'll have tons of initial threat.
Have the members of your party drop their health by 50-80% of the amount you can heal by casting tranquility. The easiest way for non-Warlocks to do this is to unequip their high-stamina gear, then reequip it.
Stand far back from the mobs being pulled, so that the rest of your party is at the leading edge of your Tranquility radius.
Cast Barkskin and simultaneously have your party members pull the mobs with very low aggro moves--Rank 1 abilities and the like.
Start casting Tranquility.
Jump into bearform just before the mobs reach you.
Tranquility is a high aggro heal, and since you're healing everyone, you'll have tons of initial threat.
I had some problems last night tanking heroic sv with a buddy of mine that is a holy priest and another friend that is a rogue. We pugged a lock and a fury warrior. Before I start any pug, I will tell them a kill order for larger pulls. Usually skull x then diamond. We got to the first 4 pull and things got crazy. Rogue sapped his target. I pulled, mauled and mangled quick to grab skull and went over to the other two and mangled and went back to skull. The priest asks me in vent why the warrior is taking so much damage and turns out he was attacking something other then skull. I told him let him die. I was swiping and X didn't leave my but diamond, since it wasn't attacking me but the warrior turns and goes after healer. We finish the pull and warrior gets mad and starts saying I need to tank all 3 at once. Needless to say he died a couple more times and we booted him.
Since I have been tanking, I have had great pugs that decided to farm 3-4 heroics and pugs that couldn't even make it through heroic ramps. Either run with the same people that know the drill or try to deal with and get through the crappy pugs.
Since I have been tanking, I have had great pugs that decided to farm 3-4 heroics and pugs that couldn't even make it through heroic ramps. Either run with the same people that know the drill or try to deal with and get through the crappy pugs.
Bah!
I meant, if your holding multiple targets tab over to a mob your not hitting (as in not your main target) and mangle (lacerate, etc.. Just something that does more damage then swipe) him to help hold him steady.
I think I just had growl on the brain.
Quote:
Like JeeBar said, growling is not like provoke (The FFXI Warrior ability). It took me a while to understand that too. If your holding multiple targets tab over to a mob your not hitting and growl at him to help hold him steady.
I meant, if your holding multiple targets tab over to a mob your not hitting (as in not your main target) and mangle (lacerate, etc.. Just something that does more damage then swipe) him to help hold him steady.
I think I just had growl on the brain.
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