There are a lot of threads on a lot of websites that can be demoralizing to people like me who find Ret Pallys to be fun and challenging to play. I am a relative noob, and have only been playing WoW for 3 months or so now, but I find all of the "negative hype" about Ret Pallys to be seriously overblown. I am not going to blow anyone away with theory or calculations, or whatever here, because although they are IMPORTANT, they are also somewhat boring! I am pretty much just starting this thread for Ret Pallys to air their pet peeves and their success stories. I have only levelled up to 43 as of this post, so there are plenty of people who know a lot more theory and calculations than I ever will.
I got pretty lucky when my lvl was in the low 20's and got invited to join a relatively new guild. As of 6/2/08 we only have a handful of active lvl50+ members, and no 70's yet. This is bad, because no one really knows much about the endgame stuff yet, but it is GOOD because we are all learning and helping each other and having fun together. I got a bit of the "you are Ret, what the heck good are you?" at the beginning, but now I have become one of the prime candidates for tanking 5-mans as long as I am using my 1-hander and shield. I can do it with my 2-hander, but my survivabilty is higher with the shield.
Anyway, feel free to add your pet peeves and success stories as a Ret Pally to this thread... here are one of each from me:
Pet Peeve:
"Use SoR! It deals holy damage with every hit! SoC only procs like 7 times per minute!"
OK.. whatever. SoR DOES deal holy damage with every hit... yippee. If I am tanking, I generally have on Ret Aura which does holy damage to anything that hits me (or anyone else in the party), and I am consecrating, which causes holy damage to anything standing next to me, so I prefer the not-quite-so-regular-but-much-more-spectacular SoC. Once I have judged Seal of the Crusader and turn on Seal of Command, I have a decent chance of getting a simultaneous white damage/holy damage crit with my weapon which can take a big chunk out of whatever I am fighting. Also, if my target is stunned, I can judge SoC for an "automatic holy crit". As long as I am doing enough holy damage and using Righteous Fury the DPSers have a really hard time getting aggro off of me, so I find SoR frankly kinda boring. Personal preference- feel free to disagree if you want. Plus if you are using a 1-h and shield, you do a cool spin-move when your SoC procs, so it is nice on visual effects :)
Success Story:
At level 36 or so, I was invited to a group in Gnomer. All of the other players were 10-14 levels below me (yah, there was a 22 in there...). We got about 2/3 of the way through and then had one of those "whoops we aggro-ed the PLANET" pulls. We ended up with 4 party members dead, but me alive and a pile of probably 30 mobs on the floor, after which I promtly regen'd my mana and resurrected the healer so they could help me res the other 3. It was a huge mess, but we DID NOT WIPE and the rest of the group was impressed at my ability to stay alive. Took me a good while to beat down everything that was surrounding me, and I had to blow my "lay on hands" to get the job done, but ANYTHING is preferable to a complete wipe. Funniest quote from this experience, "MAN I wish I could watch this fight, but I am DEAD" to which one of the other dead bodies replied "You CAN watch... just click and move your mouse around... doesn't matter that you are dead!" Laughing really hard while tanking is kinda fun....
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U R Ret.. U cant heal, cant tank, what good are you?Follow
Things change at 70 is all i can say.
you can do a lot of unorthodox things at lower level and paladin is damn near overpowered sub 50 as long as you have a good weapon. at 70, ret is about damage and utility. your healing ability is so awful compared to what is needed, the time you take healing would have been better spent DPSing (rare occasions excluded).
And tanking as ret would probably result in a squashed pally unless you are overgeared. like a T5 prot pally with all the T5 gear, specd ret for the weekend, tanking heroic UB.
Edited, Jun 2nd 2008 11:45am by KTurner
you can do a lot of unorthodox things at lower level and paladin is damn near overpowered sub 50 as long as you have a good weapon. at 70, ret is about damage and utility. your healing ability is so awful compared to what is needed, the time you take healing would have been better spent DPSing (rare occasions excluded).
And tanking as ret would probably result in a squashed pally unless you are overgeared. like a T5 prot pally with all the T5 gear, specd ret for the weekend, tanking heroic UB.
Edited, Jun 2nd 2008 11:45am by KTurner
I have been told that things change at 70, and I am sure that they will... If I have to go Prot or Holy then I probably will, but I am going to resist re-speccing for as long as possible... and if I do change to prot of holy, I am going to practice my new specs a bunch before I go trying to DO anything.
Quote:
U R Ret.. U cant heal, cant tank, what good are you?
What's the difference between 'U' and 'you'?
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Things change at lvl 58, they really change at lvl 67. It is a completely different ball game compared to Vanilla WoW. With the changes in gear, spec, and stats you need to specialize or else content will steam roll you, where pre-50 I have seen guys in gear 10-15 levels below them, with off spec tanking just fine /shrug
SoR is infinitely, and inarguably better for tanking than SoComm. While tanking as a paladin you generate threat from Holy Damage. Big numbers =/= good tank, the ability to understand how you generate threat and how to maximize it is a good trait to have. I am sure a warrior using whirlwind to generate aoe threat would look cool, but frankly its bad and shows a huge lack of understanding of the basics.
SoR is infinitely, and inarguably better for tanking than SoComm. While tanking as a paladin you generate threat from Holy Damage. Big numbers =/= good tank, the ability to understand how you generate threat and how to maximize it is a good trait to have. I am sure a warrior using whirlwind to generate aoe threat would look cool, but frankly its bad and shows a huge lack of understanding of the basics.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Mazra wrote:
What's the difference between 'U' and 'you'?
The spelling =P
Edited, Jun 2nd 2008 2:34pm by TacticalRage
The difference between U and you is a few letters I decide to type when I feel like it.
As far as SoR, I am definitely going to have to start using it to help keep my threat up better than SoComm. Thanks for the help.
I have seen some content in here that states that Ret Pallys are viable at endgame, and lots of content that says that Ret's are useless at endgame and have to re-spec either Prot or Holy... does anyone here have a lvl 70 specced Ret? Is it useful? I don't mind re-doing my talents and learning a new tree, but how necessary is it to drop Ret for the endgame? You don't have to go into a whole lot of theory as to why Ret's are viable at 70 or not, just some basics so I know what I will be facing down the road.
Thanks
As far as SoR, I am definitely going to have to start using it to help keep my threat up better than SoComm. Thanks for the help.
I have seen some content in here that states that Ret Pallys are viable at endgame, and lots of content that says that Ret's are useless at endgame and have to re-spec either Prot or Holy... does anyone here have a lvl 70 specced Ret? Is it useful? I don't mind re-doing my talents and learning a new tree, but how necessary is it to drop Ret for the endgame? You don't have to go into a whole lot of theory as to why Ret's are viable at 70 or not, just some basics so I know what I will be facing down the road.
Thanks
Yes, Ret is viable end-game. Not many people like them yet, but they are viable.
Check the Ret sticky. It will tell you everything you need to know.
Check the Ret sticky. It will tell you everything you need to know.
Short answer:
Problem most people see with ret is that they can get more value from a different class that does the same damage as a ret paladin. I have a friend who has a ret paladin at 70, (mine just hit 70 as prot), he likes it and plays it occasionally, but mostly raids with his mage.
In endgame you won't be able to tank/heal while ret spec with any semblance of effectiveness so if you want to tank or heal you will want to think about changing, but don't worry about that until you're actually 70 or close to it.
Problem most people see with ret is that they can get more value from a different class that does the same damage as a ret paladin. I have a friend who has a ret paladin at 70, (mine just hit 70 as prot), he likes it and plays it occasionally, but mostly raids with his mage.
In endgame you won't be able to tank/heal while ret spec with any semblance of effectiveness so if you want to tank or heal you will want to think about changing, but don't worry about that until you're actually 70 or close to it.
Your entire pet peeve story was about how much dmg YOU can do. And, if you were tanking, then dmg should not be something to focus on. And your guild mates should understand that your ret at lvl 40 something, for it IS your lvling spec.
O sir, things will change....
O sir, things will change....
Ret used to not be viable. Recent changes in the last couple patches have helped to rectify that somewhat.
Certain PvP brackets they are much more viable, but like every class still pretty weak against certain set ups. Not in demand like a Druid or Disc Priest but not going to be ostracized like a Shadow Priest. PvE they do well enough, not top end dps like Locks, Hunters or Rogues but they have utility that can be a selling point. In the min/max world of raiding though that is a hard sell.
The biggest thing to note is that Ret is HEAVILY gear dependant, and in 5 man blues/kara gear designed for Fury Warriors it doesn't play well which makes bridging the gap hard. S1 and S2 are mostly poor for Ret as well which leaves S3 which requires a certain amount of skill/dedication to acquire a full set. With a gear gap like that you have practically oodles of poorly geared Ret pallies with sub par dps trying to raid/pvp and failing which only further reinforces the stigma of "Lawl Ret". Lots and lots of people have no idea what they are doing with their Stats as well in terms of STR, Crit, Haste etc.
There is also the fact that Ret dps is mind bogglingly simple ( CS every 6 seconds, judge every 8, watch auto swing and hope for SoCom proc), the skill factor comes into having stuff on keybinds for stuff like BoP, BoF, Cleanse etc so you cast them without thinking before the person you are casting them on even realizes they need em. If people are screaming for a cleanse and you are fumbling on your hotbar for it then you are a bad pally end game. I have said time and time again that it is that small 0.5 seconds that is the difference between a good pally and a bad one.
Certain PvP brackets they are much more viable, but like every class still pretty weak against certain set ups. Not in demand like a Druid or Disc Priest but not going to be ostracized like a Shadow Priest. PvE they do well enough, not top end dps like Locks, Hunters or Rogues but they have utility that can be a selling point. In the min/max world of raiding though that is a hard sell.
The biggest thing to note is that Ret is HEAVILY gear dependant, and in 5 man blues/kara gear designed for Fury Warriors it doesn't play well which makes bridging the gap hard. S1 and S2 are mostly poor for Ret as well which leaves S3 which requires a certain amount of skill/dedication to acquire a full set. With a gear gap like that you have practically oodles of poorly geared Ret pallies with sub par dps trying to raid/pvp and failing which only further reinforces the stigma of "Lawl Ret". Lots and lots of people have no idea what they are doing with their Stats as well in terms of STR, Crit, Haste etc.
There is also the fact that Ret dps is mind bogglingly simple ( CS every 6 seconds, judge every 8, watch auto swing and hope for SoCom proc), the skill factor comes into having stuff on keybinds for stuff like BoP, BoF, Cleanse etc so you cast them without thinking before the person you are casting them on even realizes they need em. If people are screaming for a cleanse and you are fumbling on your hotbar for it then you are a bad pally end game. I have said time and time again that it is that small 0.5 seconds that is the difference between a good pally and a bad one.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
a couple goods and bads about Ret.
good:
-some of the best raid gear can be "solo" grinded in arena(S3+). this gear will keep you raid viable until other classes start to nibble on their T5.
bad:
-at this point your dmg potential is up near 85% of the game's max, where other classes are at more like 50%.
good:
-Ret is fun to play for pvp and raids w/o any or much respec'ing
bad:
-Blizz F'ed up Ret from the start and refuse to go back and fix it. i'm patient enough to know that Ret will get a "kick-like" interupt and that SoB and SoV will be available to both factions. even if these changes only come with the xpac.
good:
-some of the best raid gear can be "solo" grinded in arena(S3+). this gear will keep you raid viable until other classes start to nibble on their T5.
bad:
-at this point your dmg potential is up near 85% of the game's max, where other classes are at more like 50%.
good:
-Ret is fun to play for pvp and raids w/o any or much respec'ing
bad:
-Blizz F'ed up Ret from the start and refuse to go back and fix it. i'm patient enough to know that Ret will get a "kick-like" interupt and that SoB and SoV will be available to both factions. even if these changes only come with the xpac.
I understand that you wanted to be a Warrior/Rogue but rolled a Ret Pally. That is a shame, deal with it or reroll. Or get on asking for a purge on pallies and make all classes the same.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
#14REDACTED,
Posted: Jun 02 2008 at 5:06 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I know by reading threads that talk about endgame that I will absolutely HATE endgame crap when I get there. The endgame raids are very specific, it sounds, and if you deviate from the formula on how to get through it, you'll probably do nothing but wipe over and over.
Quote:
I understand that you wanted to be a Warrior/Rogue but rolled a Ret Pally. That is a shame, deal with it or reroll.
You, sir, are lame, as is this response. He didn't want to be a Warrior or a Rogue. He wanted to be a Paladin, and he wanted to be a Paladin that can deal some damage. I can't stand it when people are like 'lulz u r idiot cuz u made <insert class/race/etc here>. l2p, reroll, nub'
Why don't you instead try to give CONSTRUCTIVE ADVICE? How hard is that? Say something good or say nothing at all.
Quote:
I know by reading threads that talk about endgame that I will absolutely HATE endgame crap when I get there. The endgame raids are very specific, it sounds, and if you deviate from the formula on how to get through it, you'll probably do nothing but wipe over and over.
That, my friends, is poor game design.
Any raid should have many, many different ways to complete it. Specific specs and gear requirements should not be necessary. It's just dumb.
That, my friends, is poor game design.
Any raid should have many, many different ways to complete it. Specific specs and gear requirements should not be necessary. It's just dumb.
You have no concept of raids, which is alright because you've never done one. Specific specs and gear are not necessary, for instance KZ can be done with 2 Shadow priests, 2 Demo Locks, 1 Prot Warrior, 1 Feral druid, 2 Resto Druids, and 1 Frost Mage, even if they're all in blues. And those things that your reading don't say what you have to do, just what in their experiences is the most successful way of doing it. For instance on Attunmen it's a good idea to stay out of his charge range, but not necessary. Sometimes you are basically forced to down a boss a certain way, but that's the fun of it for me, you have to stick with the plan and if you don't you'll most likely get 2-shotted.
Quote:
I understand that you wanted to be a Warrior/Rogue but rolled a Ret Pally. That is a shame, deal with it or reroll. Or get on asking for a purge on pallies and make all classes the same.
i know healbots dont need interrupts, but on dps and tanking we sure would appreciate a way to stop that boss' spellcast.
TheRogueX wrote:
Quote:
I understand that you wanted to be a Warrior/Rogue but rolled a Ret Pally. That is a shame, deal with it or reroll.
You, sir, are lame, as is this response. He didn't want to be a Warrior or a Rogue. He wanted to be a Paladin, and he wanted to be a Paladin that can deal some damage. I can't stand it when people are like 'lulz u r idiot cuz u made <insert class/race/etc here>. l2p, reroll, nub'
Why don't you instead try to give CONSTRUCTIVE ADVICE? How hard is that? Say something good or say nothing at all.
bod has given you some good advice on this forum, and now you come back and say this to him? Granted you know nothing of the "feud" for lack of a better term between those 2 posters, but that is no excuse. bod may be an elitist prick a lot of the time, but he has a lot of experience and knowledge, and offers that up for those who ask, deserving more respect than what you give him.
Truly bad form. Shape up, or shove off.
On the topic at hand (kick-like ability), I have to agree to a certain extent with bod here. There have been a few times already that an idea has been shot down because it was starting to make one class too similar to another and losing its uniqueness. As much as I would dearly love a spell interrupt as a Tankadin, I don't really feel we should get one unless it's a talent or very different from anything currently in game for other classes.
There just are certain things that need to remain unchanged to prevent one class from completely overshadowing another. Rogues for instance are taken for their great damage, interrupts, and sap. Sap has limited usefullness (ie some places you can't sap at all). So, give another class comparable damage/an interrupt (which Tommy wants for Ret) why would you want to take the Rogue?
Edited, Jun 2nd 2008 7:09pm by Maulgak
In terms of PvP and PvE putting a kick on a pally makes about as much sense as putting MS on a Shammy. Shammies get earth shock but they lack BoP, Repentance and Stun. It is a trade off. Always has been, always will be. This is stuff that we all knew about during Beta, and has been this way for almost 4 years now.
Asking for an "I win" button rather than developing skill and accepting limitation is bunk, always will be bunk and is why Tommy has been rocking a sub 1500 rating and never gone past t4.
Which is where the hate comes in.
Asking for an "I win" button rather than developing skill and accepting limitation is bunk, always will be bunk and is why Tommy has been rocking a sub 1500 rating and never gone past t4.
Which is where the hate comes in.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Quote:
U R Ret.. U cant heal, cant tank, what good are you?
And I came in here to crack some skulls....
Allakhazam warned you bout spamming and posts under 2.01 don't get entered to the contest Hybrand.
FYI
FYI
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
As much as I would love a kick type ability for my ret pally I agree that we cant have it all and i make do with repentance and HoJ.
To Jeromesimina there is one thing I love about being Ret over Holy and Prot. The ease at which I can complete my dailies. I usually dont go to SSO till around midnight server time and couldnt imagine how long it would take to complete them as a tankadin without a party backing him up.
As a Ret pally I take the criticism on board if it is constructive otherwise I tell that noob/elitist he's a ***wit and move on. You will get people telling you that your wrong and shouldn't be Ret at 70.
You will get people telling you not to stack strength and AP over Intellect, Spell Damage and Spell Crit.
The best advice I can give you dont try and main tank or heal if you cant do it. Your just leaving yourself open for a spray if something goes pear-shaped. Protection Paladins had the same trouble a while ago and now they are widely accepted as viable tanks. Same will happen here
To Jeromesimina there is one thing I love about being Ret over Holy and Prot. The ease at which I can complete my dailies. I usually dont go to SSO till around midnight server time and couldnt imagine how long it would take to complete them as a tankadin without a party backing him up.
As a Ret pally I take the criticism on board if it is constructive otherwise I tell that noob/elitist he's a ***wit and move on. You will get people telling you that your wrong and shouldn't be Ret at 70.
You will get people telling you not to stack strength and AP over Intellect, Spell Damage and Spell Crit.
The best advice I can give you dont try and main tank or heal if you cant do it. Your just leaving yourself open for a spray if something goes pear-shaped. Protection Paladins had the same trouble a while ago and now they are widely accepted as viable tanks. Same will happen here
Ret paladins are definitely viable for end game raiding. That said, I have yet to raid with one. From what I understand, if they don't have windfury they just can't measure up to other dps you could bring. Now, if they're the only paladin online at raid time, then yeah they're going to get into the raid for the blessing.
I guess what I am saying is that if you really like ret, be prepared to work at it. You pretty much need to be excellent at the spec and have a thick skin to deal with all the comments you undoubtedly will get at 70. Getting into a good guild and having a group of friends to run normal and heroic 5-mans with is key here, as most pugs are looking for a dps class with crowd control which you don't bring. Play up your strong points, build a good rep for yourself on your server and see where the spec takes you. Then you can come back and laugh at people who said you couldn't do it. Or, you'll get fed up and respec. Either way, whatever you do, have fun.
I guess what I am saying is that if you really like ret, be prepared to work at it. You pretty much need to be excellent at the spec and have a thick skin to deal with all the comments you undoubtedly will get at 70. Getting into a good guild and having a group of friends to run normal and heroic 5-mans with is key here, as most pugs are looking for a dps class with crowd control which you don't bring. Play up your strong points, build a good rep for yourself on your server and see where the spec takes you. Then you can come back and laugh at people who said you couldn't do it. Or, you'll get fed up and respec. Either way, whatever you do, have fun.
Eh. The comment I was replying to wasn't advice. It was more of an insult.
Granted, he did post some advice further up, advice which is good. But the latter comment wasn't very necessary, imho.
Edited, Jun 3rd 2008 12:47am by TheRogueX
Granted, he did post some advice further up, advice which is good. But the latter comment wasn't very necessary, imho.
Edited, Jun 3rd 2008 12:47am by TheRogueX
My guild's retadin did 1.2k dps on rage winterchill the other night. he was 3rd on the dps meters, but 1.2k dps is still quite an achievement. It's just an age stigma attached to ret really, most well geared retadins can push very good dps nowadays, and with the raid buffs they bring together with the dmg buffs (SotC and Sanc aura), i'd say every 25 man ought to reserve a place for one. it's not as if they do gimp dps, they certainly don't any more.
Thanks for the comments and pointers so far. I guess my main reason for liking Ret is that it is not easy to play well. Any Class/Spec in the game can be easy to play at times, but there are very few that are "easy" to play well. Ret seems more challenging than most, which is why I like it.
I am in a young but growing guild and get asked to help in instances all of the time, and I get a fair amount of PuG invites to places like Mara even though I just turned 44, so hopefully that means I am doing something right so far. My main philosophy in an instance group is to do whatever the group wants me to do and do it well, but also do that little extra that helps prevent those annoying wipes. Our guild doesn't even have any 70's yet, so we are all pretty much clueless about what happens at that point, and by the time most of us get there, Lich King will come out and we will all have to worry about getting to 80 anyway.... lol
I am in a young but growing guild and get asked to help in instances all of the time, and I get a fair amount of PuG invites to places like Mara even though I just turned 44, so hopefully that means I am doing something right so far. My main philosophy in an instance group is to do whatever the group wants me to do and do it well, but also do that little extra that helps prevent those annoying wipes. Our guild doesn't even have any 70's yet, so we are all pretty much clueless about what happens at that point, and by the time most of us get there, Lich King will come out and we will all have to worry about getting to 80 anyway.... lol
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