Needing outside your roleFollow

This post concerns itself only with 5-man instances. Forget about raids for a moment.

Do you think its okay for a group member to roll need on an item intended for their class, but not for their particular role in that group? This could be a pally healer rolling need on a dps plate item or a warrior tank rolling need on a two-hander or a shadow priest rolling need on a +healing cloth item.

I think it's perfectly fine (!) - but the most common point of view in these forums and in PUGs seems to be that this is the worst, most despicable form of ninjaing you can commit. "OMG, you didn't equip that item immediately, so you don't need it!"

We all know what it's like to be grouped with a pally, a priest and a druid and *still* be looking for a healer! It's equally frustrating for them to be grouped with a warrior who could tank, but doesn't want to. We all want the group to work, and I think it's commendable if a dps warrior agrees to tank or a balance druid agrees to heal if that's what the group needs - assuming they can fill that role of course. And those people probably want to go back to dps, or whatever it is they do, as soon as the instance is over. I still think they should be allowed to roll need on an item they need for all other situations than right now.

And I haven't even gone in to how hard it is to re-spec if you can't acquire the *first* piece of gear needed for your new spec.

I think: Stop punishing your group members for assuming a role for the benefit of the group!

But what do you think?

while leveling, classes have some pretty defined roles to fill. Warriors can tank and dps, pretty much with the same gear. They only thing outside of dps items they should need on, IMHO, is a tanking weapon and a good shield.

While leveling, any spec of warrior can tank. Just put on a sword and board, strap on the defensive stance button layout, and then rotate you skills...

Spriests rolling on healing gear as need... that's something for the healers to decide if it's ok. Sure, it's fundamentally wrong. But a primary focus of the class is to heal. And healing gear has +spell damage on it too, now. Has for a while now.

If it's better than what one is wearing at the time, I say roll on it, in 5-mans.

If you are currently performing that function in the group, then Need immediately.

If you are not currently performing that fucntion, but can use it to solo, or whatever, then ask group if it is "OK to Need for soloing or whatever". Unless someone else in the groups needs it to fulfill their current role in the group, you should be ok.

Do NOT ever hit Need on an item (that you are not spec'd for or will use to solo) if someone else in the group will use it to help fulfill their current group role. You will be depriving the group of improved performance - I would boot you from the group immediately. Respect people and what they currently bring to the group. That is the top priority for Needing, not what you're going to do next week, next month, next year, etc...

Edited, Jun 2nd 2008 9:51am by YJMark

Edited, Jun 2nd 2008 9:53am by YJMark

I have run into this problem being a DPS warrior wanting heroic MGT stuff. Seeing how I could never in my life get an invite as Fury or Arms, I specced Prot since I have collected almost full epic tanking gear. Every group, I would tell them first, "Hey guys, I'm normally DPS, I respecced to prot specifically for this instance and I'm rolling on DPS plate and the DPS trinket from the 3rd boss." Most are perfectly fine with it seeing how tanks with gear and experience of that place are hard to PUG.

I don't see any problems with it as long as you mention it before the group gets ready to go. Even if it means you may lose your spot, ***** it, I would rather keep my reputation than to get an item that maybe increase a couple of stats by 5.

Yup, but that resto druid could roll aginst the prot warrior who both want it for off-spec DPS.

For me, all gear in 5 mans (and raids) go Main Spec, then Off-spec. If it's an item you can use for your Main Spec (even if you already have a piece of equipment there always good to have a set of avoidance/aggro/EH for tanks, and shamans have the MP5 set, norm sets, etc.) then you should get priority on it over someone who would use it for off-spec. If no one needs it for main spec, then whoever wants to use it for off-spec /roll for it.

I really appreciate all the feedback. When I posted this I thought there was a big possibility that it would just dump off the first page with 0 replies. And many of you confirm my impression of the general view on this matter. However, I don't think you've fully considered the consequenses of a "Need only for your current role"-system.

The flaw in this system is evident in all 5 man instances. I'll use Razorfen Kraul as an example: A group is sitting at the entrance to RFK. The group so far consists of a warrior with a 2-hander, a shaman and two others. One person notices that a tank is needed and asks the warrior: "Will you tank?"

The warrior has two possible replies:

A) "Yes. I have a sword and board. I will tank for us."

or

B) "No! I insist on running the instance as dps with my green 2-hander!" (thus forcing the group to look for another tank)

Let's say a Corpsemaker drops. The warrior spends 95% of his time at this level soloing or running BGs, and only 5% in instances, and obviously he wants a Corpsemaker.

If the warrior has been a stubborn idiot and replied B), he will be allowed to roll against the shaman, whereas if he's flexible and replies A), he will be punished, because the Corpsemaker will go by default to the shaman. Do you see what I'm getting at?

This is not a question of whether "the warrior should have said in advance that he didn't want to get screwed over on loot, even though he changed his role". This is a question of whether the system by default screws anyone who's flexible in their role, and rewards anyone who's rigid and stubborn.

That is why I still say: It should be okay to roll Need on items that are intended for your class, but not for the specific role you have assumed in the exact moment the item dropped!

Edit: P.S. I hope you can see past the fact that I'm using a low level instance as an example, because it's exactly the same in Outlands.

Edited, Jun 7th 2008 12:34am by PanicRaider

Something else you might consider, after talking to everyone and determining that no one else will use the item, ask if you can need and after you get the item, everyone /roll and you give 20g or x ( number close to de value ) gold to the high roller if it is not you. Me personally I hate to see a nice item wasted, so if someone will use it at all I would rather that person have it versus vendering or de. But that is just me.

Obviously this is only if no one else could use the item. I agree with most of the posters. Just make sure everyone is clear before needing on something you will use in your secondary role.

It's all about communication and expectation.

Personally, my attitude is need is need. If you need it for your main spec then roll need. If you need it for your off-spec, then it's need. Need is need.

By the same token, if you need something for your main spec, then say so up front when the item drops ("wow, I've been looking for that forever, that's a great tank piece" or "man, i can use that for healing!" etc. a comment that fits your role). Likewise, don't click need or greed right away if it's off-spec for you. Take a breath and see if someone makes a comment about their main spec. If they don't, then roll it.

Now, say upfront -- "Folks, don't click right away, tell us if you need something so others can think about what they should roll."

And there are those of us who don't have a "main" spec. I spend equal time as fury and prot, flipping between the two as is needed for my guild and whatever I'm doing that day. I know a druid who does the same. Of course, by the time we get to the first boss that drops anything I'll need, I'll have made a comment about what item from the loot table I really want. I'll have talked about how I'm respec'ing tomorrow for a raid, etc. In other words, I've communicated my status and the reasons for my being there to the rest of the group.

If it's a badge run PUG, then frankly, no one is there for the loot so anything that drops is gravy. But if your there for the loot table, then by all means say so up front, regardless of your spec.

And if, a a warrior, you're going into an instance not knowing every boss encounter (and by extention thier loot table) then you have no business being there. Get on the itnternet and read.

deleted

Edited, Aug 27th 2008 12:36am by kawainui

Something warriors face that most other classes don't is the need for at least 3 different sets of gear.

You need your high avoidance set. You need your high hp set, and you need a dps set. And that has nothing to do with changing spec. There are many fights where a prot tank who is not the main tank should be switching gear to a set with a high attack value for a number of fights. A lower-end example would be the Maiden of Virtue in Kara. Really any dps race with a single boss the off tank(s) should be changing out to DPS gear.

Other fights are about pure avoidance, the more you have the easier the fight is, and hps really don't matter. Still other's are about mitigaqtion and hps.

The point I'm trying to get to is that even within the role of "Tank" there's a need for multiple bits of gear. So saying that a piece doesn't fit the "tank role," tends to under-appreciate what that role is, or artifically limits the tank role to the 5-man instance.

Other classes face this problem to some degree. Everyone's probably heard a druid or shaman who is not there as the healer comment about needing a piece for their healer set. But I don't think any class faces this issue to quite the degree that warriors do. So it's not just spec that the question applies to -- but what constitutes the "role" being discussed.