Windfury procsFollow

well from what i have heard the buff increases the actual proc chance to i think 36% when both are applied (literally). The AP bonus from WF it self is not halved like regular AP on off hand. I have heard elemental weapons really scales your stats where Flame Tongue and Frost Brand really doesn't scale well and require Spell Hit. You are also correct about it helping to keep flurry and Unleashed Rage up.

to put it simple WF is our best weapon buff for enhancement it just scales so well for us rather then the other weapon buffs. Now if your still moving up the grind there is nothing wrong with trying out other weapon buffs to see if you are getting a better kill time while soloing (i found that rock biter was better for some levels as I was coming up). Anyhow hope this helps have fun

The thing about Windfury, even though alone is amazing damage, is that its true greatness is from its scaling. You actually might, and I stress that it is only a might, be better off with a WF/FT combo and a fast offhand weapon when you freshly hit 70 or before that, but due to how much AP WF will gain after talents, I suspect you'll find that even having only slow-weapon Offhand procs of Windfury, once you're at 2000 AP, may beat dual Flametongue on fast weapons with 600 spell damage (which is what a 2K AP shammy would have with Mental Quickness). If not from the damage of WF, it would be from the extra 2 attacks synergizing with your crit chance to keep Flurry, Unleashed Rage, and Shamanistic Focus up.



Edit: And Mazra's avatar is so heart-melty, we all demand him to put it back up whenever he swaps it out for some raging teddy bear or the hand-bra.

Edited, May 29th 2008 8:57pm by Raglu

Having felt the urge to kind of highjack these kind of threads before, I will actually do it right at this point.

What seems to be kind of nonlogical to me (or doesn't it? not sure!) is the following. Please correct me for any erroneous thinking in here.

(in advance sorry for the wall of text, if you don't like it, don't read further!)

- We are of course talking enhancement specced, dual-wielders.
- When viewing windfury alone, it increases damage per second on a fast and a slow weapon equally, since it is a flat 20% chance with a dependancy on weapon speed (through AP).
- Windfury on both weapons has been proven to be the top-end damage in simulations (ElitistJerks for example, I think I recall a simulation's outcome there with nice graphs and such).
- Both weapons slow would be preferable (2.6 speed as some obscure optimum?) because of the higher damage output of Stormstrike and to prevent your (damage-penaltied) offhand to snipe all your flurry hits.
- Windfury has an internal cooldown of 3 seconds, meaning that after ANY of your two weapons has a windfury proc, NONE of the two can have a windfury proc for 3 seconds after that. (this is no flaw in facts, isnt it?)

Now my point is this:

- Assume you have both weapons at speed 2.6 (or speed 2.9 for that matter).
- 0. First hit occurse, both weapons at the same time, 2 (or even 3?) options:
1. No windfury proc occurs, chance is 80%*80%=64%.
2. One windfury proc occurs, chance is 80%*20%+20%*80%=32%.
3? Two windfury procs occur (is this possible? I think it is but merely on logical thinking), chance is 20%*20%=4%.
- The 1. is not interesting, you will be back at 0., no intern cooldown activated.
- The 2. and 3. ARE interesting on the other hand. The internal cooldown is activated, 3 seconds start running.
- Your next swing with both weapons will be 100% NON-windfury procced. because the weapon speed is under 3 seconds.
- In my eyes, this means that after 2. or 3. occurs on a swing when the cooldown is not activated, you will have a guaranteed time of 2*weapon speed of no windfury procs. In this example (no haste assumed) it is a 5.2 seconds window without procs for sure.

Now the confusing part:
->>> Isnt this close-to-3 seconds weapon speed enormously gimping the windfury damage output?

For example a 3.1 second weapon (nonexistant for onehander!) would be ideal because on every swing you are outside of the cooldown. Now since they don't exist, this might be true for two 1.5 or 1.6 second weapons (just over half the cooldown time in swing speed)... These weapons can get a windfury proc (each) every 3 seconds, whereas slower weapons can get a windfury proc (each) every, say, 5.2 seconds. Isnt the damage gained from the increased amount of windfury procs (assumption 1) enough to offset the lower damage from stormstrike with those faster weapons? Not to mention you will have flurry up even more (assumption 2) and of course the +10% AP for the party (assumption 3)? The latter two (assumptions 2 & 3) are true, but the first assumption may not. Please, if anyone could elaborate on this I would be very thankful!

Edit: minor spelling issues, non-native english...

Edited, May 30th 2008 11:10am by Immunios

It's certainly a valid avenue of inquiry, Immunios. But you're forgetting two major things, the first of which is desynchronization. No matter what speed weapons you have or what you do, your weapons will, for whatever reason, always desynch over time. Always. This tends to royally ***** with math that tries to map the weapon speeds and WF proc cooldowns down to perfection since it adds a wholly unpredictable and uncontrollable variable to the equation.

If it can't be mathed, however, there is always one more process left: good, old fashioned experimentation. Go run a full raid (not an instance; too short) with two fast 1.50-1.60 speed weapons, and then again with two slow 2.6-ish weapons, and see which one nets you the most DPS. Just for kicks, you could try it two more times with a fast/slow and slow/fast combo as well.

I've done this myself, and I got the best results with slow/slow. I can't promise your results will be the same since I couldn't expect you to be running with my exact gear set, but I would assume it should at least be close.

Now, I did mention two things you forgot, and the second one is Flurry. The 30% swing speed reduction is going to adjust both the slow and fast weapons to a different extent and, again, royally ***** with your math in ways I don't even care to explore at the moment.

In general, time and again, I've found that it's just better to have the two slowest weapons possible so you're guaranteed hard Stormstrike hits and WF procs whenever and wherever they happen to occur.

Edited, May 30th 2008 4:09pm by Gaudion

What weapon are you using on your offhand? If it is anything faster than 2.5, it probably is stealing WF procs off your main hand and thus reducing your overall DPS. 2.6 weapons are optimal.

To Lowgo:

No I am not assuming a world without lag or anything, thats why I also mentioned the 1.6 speed weapon.

To Gaudion:

Yes the way I presented it is simplified for things like flurry etc. However, simplified situations often provide many conclusions that still hold in more complex situations (talking as a mathematician here), hence: always start simplified. Now my main point was that with slow weapons there is a large window (gets smaller when flurry is active, but it is still there) after a windfury proc in which none can proc, simply because your first swing after the proc is inside the 3 seconds cooldown and you must wait for the next for another chance to proc. This time window is HUGE as a gut-feeling. Again: as a gut-feeling. I WISH I had the chance to run a raid, ANY raid for that matter, but I have not. I can only play very very casually (but with huge pleasure) and take large interest in discussions here on Allakhazam, contributing where I can and poking where I can to discover "what is behind it".

And desynchronization? Yes it is a huge problem, it certainly is. And agreed it screws over maths, but is the desync (which I never see because I never raid, so never have long fights) really halfs of seconds? Just out of curiosity...

/agree

(never noticed THAT much of a desync, but trust your word for it)