I'm currently reading up on druid tank theorycraft, actually just started, so please be gentle as I ask what is probably well covered somewhere else.
My question is: Are druid tanks generally slower to build threat compared to a warrior or pally tank?
The situation: I've been running heroics and KZ farming (on my rogue) with a couple different druid tanks and they both seem to have a very tough time holding aggro and are slow to build threat from the start. Now, my experience with druids is minimal so I'm not quick to blame the player or the class. But even when down-ranking my rotations, switching weapons, etc.. seems that I'm having to aggro-wipe a ton more than I would normally with a warrior or pally. I probably would have not asked here if two other dps'ers hadn't also voiced concerns to me about it. So, here I am.
Having played a tankadin, I realize that threat is different between the classes. But this is now becoming a problem and I need to try to fit my rogue's playstyle to the limitations or strengths of the tank I'm running with.
Thanks in advance for any information that can help.
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Druid tanking and threatFollow
As a rule, i'm pretty sure a druid tank should be better at generating threat than an equivalent geared warrior (not sure about Pallys). Having said that, there is a lot of variation between tanks. Our warrior MT recently did some forum reading and changed her attack patterns and now puts out a lot more threat than she did before.
A druid tank should be using Mangle every time it is available as well as spamming lacerate. If they have more than 50% rage then they can spam maul as well.
You should be aware though, that if the druids first maul misses or is dodged/parried, then it will be a few seconds till they build much agro. That is why I always watch the threat meter to see when to start DPS. If you see a couple of thousand threat then you are good to go (exact amount varies with the tank and your chance to crit etc.)
A druid tank should be using Mangle every time it is available as well as spamming lacerate. If they have more than 50% rage then they can spam maul as well.
You should be aware though, that if the druids first maul misses or is dodged/parried, then it will be a few seconds till they build much agro. That is why I always watch the threat meter to see when to start DPS. If you see a couple of thousand threat then you are good to go (exact amount varies with the tank and your chance to crit etc.)
Druids are stellar at building threat quickly.
As long as my first mangle connects the DPS can jump right in and all is good with the world, and even if it misses it's generally not a big deal at all. When I'm OT'ing Gruul, maintaining second on the hate list below a Warrior is a humorous event where I have to debate whether or not to do anything constantly to avoid blasting by the tank's threat. So it's certainly not the Classes ability to generate threat.
I'm going to assume it's the tanks, gear is only so much of an issue really so it's probably just them not doing their job effectively.
As long as my first mangle connects the DPS can jump right in and all is good with the world, and even if it misses it's generally not a big deal at all. When I'm OT'ing Gruul, maintaining second on the hate list below a Warrior is a humorous event where I have to debate whether or not to do anything constantly to avoid blasting by the tank's threat. So it's certainly not the Classes ability to generate threat.
I'm going to assume it's the tanks, gear is only so much of an issue really so it's probably just them not doing their job effectively.
Yup, druids have "snap aggro". A mangle and a maul at the start of the fight are 98% sure to glue the mob to us, after that we just have to get into some rotation to keep it.
Our threat building rotation after the initial burst can be a tad lower than warriors sometimes though. (I want shield slam and devastate hehe)
So it's definitly not the class mechanics.
However, have you compared the threat building of those druids with your own paladin tank ? Are you sure it's them that have trouble generating aggro ?
It could be you as well (no offense). If you're still learning to play your rogue,you might be opening with a frontload of threat even the tanks can not match. Try to give them some time before you open on the mob (generally, when I'm tanking and I want to make sure I have aggro, I ask to wait for two lacerate stacks on the mob).
Though if other DPSers also voiced concerns as well, it might indeed be your tanks who have to practice grabbing aggro :-)
Our threat building rotation after the initial burst can be a tad lower than warriors sometimes though. (I want shield slam and devastate hehe)
So it's definitly not the class mechanics.
However, have you compared the threat building of those druids with your own paladin tank ? Are you sure it's them that have trouble generating aggro ?
It could be you as well (no offense). If you're still learning to play your rogue,you might be opening with a frontload of threat even the tanks can not match. Try to give them some time before you open on the mob (generally, when I'm tanking and I want to make sure I have aggro, I ask to wait for two lacerate stacks on the mob).
Though if other DPSers also voiced concerns as well, it might indeed be your tanks who have to practice grabbing aggro :-)
Thanks a ton for the responses! Very, very helpful as I'm just now trying to learn the basics of the class mechanics for raid info/planning.
Some responses:
I'm slow to blame a player until I know more about the mechanics, tactics and rotations of their class. I haven't had a lot of experience with druid tanks apart from the two I'm running with lately. That's why I wanted to ask here about mechanics. But from what I'm seeing there doesn't seem to be any issue with front-load threat from druid tanks (as far as game mechanics are concerned). So.... hmm...
I'm trying to do that now (comparing tps building and plateau from recount data) but it's a bit tricky as I'm seeing the druid threat from the dps position, and seeing my pally threat from the tanks. But when I tank the same runs, I don't notice the issues with my dpsers as I am having as a dps. At least they're not saying anything or acting funny. I am not saying that I pwn. Just trying to understand the druid tank better so I can work with them more harmoniously.
No offense taken. I know how it is on these forums, lol! That's why I put armory links in my sig. ;)
But as far as my rogue front-loading threat: Well, just not happening. I actually extended out my regular rotations, downgraded my weapons, etc all to little or no help. Threat has still been a problem. Combat rogue rotations are pretty standardized and I don't have the exact same problems with other tanks. Which is where my puzzlement began. Also note that I wasn't the only one accidentally peeling mobs off the tank. Should have noted that in the OP.
Again, thanks for the responses! Really appreciated, rate up all 'round. I'll keep an eye out for those Mangles!
Cheers.
Some responses:
I'm slow to blame a player until I know more about the mechanics, tactics and rotations of their class. I haven't had a lot of experience with druid tanks apart from the two I'm running with lately. That's why I wanted to ask here about mechanics. But from what I'm seeing there doesn't seem to be any issue with front-load threat from druid tanks (as far as game mechanics are concerned). So.... hmm...
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have you compared the threat building of those druids with your own paladin tank?
I'm trying to do that now (comparing tps building and plateau from recount data) but it's a bit tricky as I'm seeing the druid threat from the dps position, and seeing my pally threat from the tanks. But when I tank the same runs, I don't notice the issues with my dpsers as I am having as a dps. At least they're not saying anything or acting funny. I am not saying that I pwn. Just trying to understand the druid tank better so I can work with them more harmoniously.
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If you're still learning to play your rogue...
No offense taken. I know how it is on these forums, lol! That's why I put armory links in my sig. ;)
But as far as my rogue front-loading threat: Well, just not happening. I actually extended out my regular rotations, downgraded my weapons, etc all to little or no help. Threat has still been a problem. Combat rogue rotations are pretty standardized and I don't have the exact same problems with other tanks. Which is where my puzzlement began. Also note that I wasn't the only one accidentally peeling mobs off the tank. Should have noted that in the OP.
Again, thanks for the responses! Really appreciated, rate up all 'round. I'll keep an eye out for those Mangles!
Cheers.
TherionSaysWhat wrote:
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have you compared the threat building of those druids with your own paladin tank?
I'm trying to do that now (comparing tps building and plateau from recount data) but it's a bit tricky as I'm seeing the druid threat from the dps position, and seeing my pally threat from the tanks. But when I tank the same runs, I don't notice the issues with my dpsers as I am having as a dps. At least they're not saying anything or acting funny. I am not saying that I pwn. Just trying to understand the druid tank better so I can work with them more harmoniously.
I meant more like general Omen (or other threat meter) TPS but yeah Recount analysis after the fight might be safer *snicker*
The numbers should be fairly accurate since as a rogue you're right in front of the tank with only the mob in between.
Anyway, ask them what they are doing when a pull begins, from the moment the mobs are marked up to the point they are hitting them on the head. That might help in further analyzing the problem, so we can hopefully fix their low threat so your DPS can fire at will :-)
PS: the text in your sig should be :
"Nihonjin Kanojo Boshūchū"
日本人彼女募集ä¸
Konojo is a type of fish ;)
Edited, May 28th 2008 2:40pm by dotorion
Not to belabor what's already been said, but I can confirm that the druid tanks in my guild build aggro faster than any class. A mangle and then spamming lacerate while keeping mangle up seems to work beautifully. The only tanks we have with threat issues are actually warriors.
We had a druid tank that was using mangle and maul only.. not lacerate. Once we got her using lacerate too she held everything. I have heard of druid tanks doing maul before mangle too, but this is a bad idea, mangle is the big threat generator.
Edited, May 28th 2008 11:00am by pjbairdct
We had a druid tank that was using mangle and maul only.. not lacerate. Once we got her using lacerate too she held everything. I have heard of druid tanks doing maul before mangle too, but this is a bad idea, mangle is the big threat generator.
Edited, May 28th 2008 11:00am by pjbairdct
It seems like it's hard to get a good amount of threat on big pulls(4+ mobs). This is where other classes can excel in threat generation. 1 or 2 targets though, other tanks can try to get as much threat as a druid, but if the druid doesn't suck, it's probably not going to happen.
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PS: the text in your sig should be :
"Nihonjin Kanojo Boshūchū"
日本人彼女募集ä¸
"Nihonjin Kanojo Boshūchū"
日本人彼女募集ä¸
Sweet mother of.... I am an idiot.
Thanks! ;)
So...do druid tanks build threat faster than any other tank? I always thought they did, which is why the question here was puzzling. But I only have lowbie warriors and pallies.
In my mental scheme of things warriors are the best boss tanks because of their superior oh-sh*t buttons, pallies the best aoe/trash tanks and druids the best at, well, vanilla tanking (no oh-sh*t needed, 3 or fewer mobs) because our rage builds faster than that of your average warrior. Is this correct or the wishful thinking of a snobbish feral? And, obviously, any of the three played well can handle any of the above situations, etc.
In my mental scheme of things warriors are the best boss tanks because of their superior oh-sh*t buttons, pallies the best aoe/trash tanks and druids the best at, well, vanilla tanking (no oh-sh*t needed, 3 or fewer mobs) because our rage builds faster than that of your average warrior. Is this correct or the wishful thinking of a snobbish feral? And, obviously, any of the three played well can handle any of the above situations, etc.
Yes, that is correct. We are also best equipped to take on slow and hard hitting melee bosses because of our huge armor.
tuskerdu, that seems more or less right. Druids clearly, to my eyes, get snap aggro better. Warriors take a bit more time to build threat, though they do it fine too. I would say druids have advantages in certain types of fights-- in some fights with really spikey, heavy damage I prefer to heal a druid, because their higher health and armor makes it easier for them to survive, even without the oh-**** buttons. Also druid tanks can't be shape shifted/sheeped. If there's magical damage, I definitely prefer a warrior.
I may think that way because I'm a druid healer, however.. steady HOTs match very well with the steady health loss of a well-equipped druid tank (vs more spikey warrior and pally damage).
The first boss in ZA is an example. We have better luck with the tank on the bear being one of our ferals.
Edited, May 28th 2008 3:35pm by pjbairdct
I may think that way because I'm a druid healer, however.. steady HOTs match very well with the steady health loss of a well-equipped druid tank (vs more spikey warrior and pally damage).
The first boss in ZA is an example. We have better luck with the tank on the bear being one of our ferals.
Edited, May 28th 2008 3:35pm by pjbairdct
Thanks. That's why this whole thread threw me for a loop -- it was like seeing a post with the subject line Why Can't Paladins Tank Multiple Mobs?
Something tells me (as it did other posters) there was something off with OP's druid tank or the druid missed his/her first maul/mangle combo.
Something tells me (as it did other posters) there was something off with OP's druid tank or the druid missed his/her first maul/mangle combo.
It used to be the other way around. Before Lacerate, and Mangle's threat bonus, virtually all of our threat was through damage only, so it was like a freight train; slow to start, but once you get it going you can't stop it. This was mostly thanks to the fact that we never had to spend rage on defensive abilities...it could all be spent on offense. Warriors could Sunder/Tclap/Heroic Strike for a quick dose of threat if they needed it, but were sometimes limited by their incoming rage being spent on their normal threat cycle; all we could do was spam Demo.Roar and Swipe while we waited for the next Maul to tick.
Since the addition of Lacerate and its huge frontloaded threat bonus, the Mangle changes, and a few other minor tweaks...we've kind of taken over that realm. But Warriors still give a smoother ride tanking (threat issues aside, and relatively speaking) thanks to better avoidance.
Since the addition of Lacerate and its huge frontloaded threat bonus, the Mangle changes, and a few other minor tweaks...we've kind of taken over that realm. But Warriors still give a smoother ride tanking (threat issues aside, and relatively speaking) thanks to better avoidance.
Scholar
20 posts
Another thing to think about is whether or not the OP was stunning the mob...Stunned mobs don't hit me and I am very rage starved, especially right at the get go.
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Another thing to think about is whether or not the OP was stunning the mob...Stunned mobs don't hit me and I am very rage starved, especially right at the get go.
This is a good point: it's a really bad idea for a rogue to open an attack with a stun if the tank is trying to get aggro. I don't understand why so many rogues do it (it's not a lot, but it's more than I expect). Our rogues get an earful if they do it... ;). Still even a single mangle should be enough to lock aggro onto most druid tanks.
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Another thing to think about is whether or not the OP was stunning the mob...Stunned mobs don't hit me and I am very rage starved, especially right at the get go.
Ahh....the joys of PUGs where you FFF the mob and the rogue cheap shots it before it even gets to you! :(
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Another thing to think about is whether or not the OP was stunning the mob...Stunned mobs don't hit me and I am very rage starved, especially right at the get go.
Ahh....the joys of PUGs where you FFF the mob and the rogue cheap shots it before it even gets to you! :(
Another thing to think about is whether or not the OP was stunning the mob...Stunned mobs don't hit me and I am very rage starved, especially right at the get go.
Ahh....the joys of PUGs where you FFF the mob and the rogue cheap shots it before it even gets to you! :(
roll a pally. AS ftw. dont know about snap argo that some are talking about. but i tend to have about 2k+ threat on a mob before it even gets to me on my pally.
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Another thing to think about is whether or not the OP was stunning the mob
While it's not uncommon to Cheap Shot some trash (slowing damage intake by the tank and making healing more efficient), no decent rogue will do that right off the cuff before the threat lead is established and the tank has obviously some rage in their bar. Just rogue 101 really. Situational awareness FTW.
After reading a bit and learning more about the class mechanics, I have to conclude that the two particular tanks I was grouping with had other issues.
Thanks for all the responses! They've really, really helped.
Scholar
37 posts
As the others have said...it's not a class mechanic. Correctly geared druids often have to sit and do nothing but auto-attack while OT'ing to make sure they aren't surpassing the MT's threat. It's most likely due to either (or combination of) how the druid is pulling, generating threat, or geared.
Do OT druids stay in Bear form?
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Scholar
37 posts
Sorry...didn't explain well enough. By OT'ing here... I meant when the druid is the 2nd/3rd tank on a boss such as Gruul/Halazzi/ or when not tanking on of the the Bear bosses forms.
In these situations I've had to stop everything but auto attacking to avoid pulling the bear bosses other form...or grabbing agro from Halazzi and then dragging him around the room when going to get the Lynx.
In these situations I've had to stop everything but auto attacking to avoid pulling the bear bosses other form...or grabbing agro from Halazzi and then dragging him around the room when going to get the Lynx.
On Gruul when OT'ing, I go all out early on when I am a bit rage starved. After a few growths though, I have to cut right back. I try and just keep mangle up for the kitty druids, but sometimes have to stop attacking for a while till the tank gets a bit more of a lead.
On Halazzi & Nalorakk, I only white damage the boss between hatchers or while the warrior is tanking Nalorakk. These fights aren't really DPS races (at least not in the groups I run with) so the only important thing is that I have max rage to be able to go all out when it is my turn to tank bear or run around madly trying to pick up millions of the damn dragonhawks (the one time I wish I was a Pally Tank).
On Halazzi & Nalorakk, I only white damage the boss between hatchers or while the warrior is tanking Nalorakk. These fights aren't really DPS races (at least not in the groups I run with) so the only important thing is that I have max rage to be able to go all out when it is my turn to tank bear or run around madly trying to pick up millions of the damn dragonhawks (the one time I wish I was a Pally Tank).
Scholar
37 posts
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I only white damage the boss between hatchers or while the warrior is tanking Nalorakk
Nalorakk is the bear boss...Halazzi is the Lynx boss.
The hatchers are involved with Jan'alai
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These fights aren't really DPS races
Well, even if you're not going for the timers for the extra loot you still have:
-Nalorakk has an enrage at 10 min
-Spending too much time downing either the Lynx or Halazzi during the split forms will wipe the raid
I see in the thread people are using maul. I don't even have it on my bar. I find the attack speed too slow and I'm usually tanking Kara or some heroics where I need to generate lots of threat because those smartasses of guildies are always trying (emphasis on trying) to steal aggro. So usually my skill rotation is quite easy, mangle to open the fight then I spam lacerate until mangle is up.
If I'm tanking more than one, I'll throw swipe to be sure to build aggro everywhere to keep the healer safe. I even made a mouseover macro to lacerate any target without switching my main target. That can be useful when tanking more than 3 mobs (which I avoid in Kara and heroics =))
So back to my first question.. is maul that useful ? I guess while mangle is on CD, and you want to dish more damage than the normal attack and you don't have the threat problem, I could see a point of using it.. but again, there's a lot of if in there :) I prefer spamming Lacerate and mangle and let the DPS go all out without problem.
If I'm tanking more than one, I'll throw swipe to be sure to build aggro everywhere to keep the healer safe. I even made a mouseover macro to lacerate any target without switching my main target. That can be useful when tanking more than 3 mobs (which I avoid in Kara and heroics =))
So back to my first question.. is maul that useful ? I guess while mangle is on CD, and you want to dish more damage than the normal attack and you don't have the threat problem, I could see a point of using it.. but again, there's a lot of if in there :) I prefer spamming Lacerate and mangle and let the DPS go all out without problem.
Scholar
37 posts
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I find the attack speed too slow
Maul is not a separate attack, it is an ability/spell that adds damage and threat to your next attack. The reason the icon is highlighted after clicking/selecting it is that it's waiting for the next white attack.
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So back to my first question.. is maul that useful ?
Yes
However, since the TPR of Maul is not as great as mangle and Lacerate it is often suggested that you avoid using it unless you have more than 40-50 rage. When rage is not an issue (many boss fights/tanking multiple mobs/etc)then you should be using maul.
Edited, Jun 12th 2008 9:53pm by FigaroBugs
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