serious dk race discussionFollow

ok, tyr mentioned that since we now know all races can be death knights, then we should probably have a more serious race discussion thread when it comes to death knight race. so heres my take on things, from a min/max perspective.

alliance races:

dwarf - eh, decent. the second best tank out of the allies with stoneform to knock bleeds off, but otherwise the racial advantages are meager. you get a useless gun bonus (since i doubt DK's wil shoot anything; theyll just bring whatever they want to eat to them), some negligible frost resistance that decreases in relative power as the level cap goes up, and treasure finding, which while nice in some cases, isnt a factor when min/maxing.

draenei - id rate these guys about middle of the pack. gift of the naaru will help for leveling and outside of arena pvp, and can help a bit even in pve, but DK's wont be stacking huge amounts of +healing or spell power, so its effect at the end game will be far mitigated. still, a free heal is a free heal, and sometimes all you need to win is 100 more hp than the other guy, so id call GotN a wash in terms of gain.

the shadow resist and JC are like other resist/profession gains; nice, but ultimately negligible in the long run. id imagine DK's would get a +hit aura instead of +spell hit, and thats always nice, but its nothing a draenei warrior or hunter doesnt already provide.

gnome - probably the best choice from a pvp standpoint. you get escape artist which is huge for warriors and rogues, so it would stand to reason that it would be equally huge for another melee class. gnome DK's will probably make mages cry like few other classes can, as not only can a DK negate blink with an inherent ability, but being gnome provides an escape mechanism against nova, and the lichborn talent (if it remains as is) would provide immunity to polymorph. the only thing a gnome DK lacks is offensive dispel of some kind, which could prove problematic if the RNG works against the DK (frostbite/impact procs mostly).

more eng skill isnt terribly bad or good, but it would give starting gnome DK's a neat little advantage in terms of professions. the rest of the gnome package is rather lackluster for a DK; more int means nothing, and negligible arcane resist, while nice because its arcane, is still about as meh as dwarf frost resist.

human - human DK's will be, hands down, the best from a pve dps perspective, and probably from a tanking one too. the increase in expertise is huge; the other three racials are just frosting really. perception is nice from a pvp standpoint, and will make rogues sweat since a human DK can go lichborn + perception and find a rogue without fear of being sapped or stunned. the spirit buff is nothing to write home about, and the rep gain aint bad; it just means human DK's spend 10% less time grinding rep.

night elf - night elf DK's will he hit or miss; theyll either synergize really well with creative use of shadowmeld, or it just wont work well together at all. shadowmeld is traditionally a nice racial in world pvp and bgs, rather useless in pve (save for the odd afk where its a hassle avoider) and near useless in arena. as a melee class without a charge, shadowmelds usage will likely be relegated to breaking ranged cast time spells while out of combat, which is a niche use at the best.

the nature resist is like all other resists, wisp form is great fun for taunting your friends after a wipe and not much else, and the dodge passive helps a bit for tanking (but not, imo, as much as the expertise does).

final alliance tally:

pve tanking -
human
night elf/dwarf
draenei
gnome

pve dps -
human
draenei
dwarf/night/gnome

world/bg pvp -
gnome
night elf/human
draenei/dwarf

arena pvp -
gnome
human
night elf/draenei/dwarf

---------------------------------------------------------

horde races:

blood elf - mana tap and arcane torrent would be the big bonus of being a blood elf. a 2s aoe silence is quite powerful in a coordinated group, and gaining runic power back, even if its only 15 points at a max charge, cant be a bad thing. the enchanting bonus is like all other profession bonuses; nice, but nothing gamebreaking, and the chromatic resistance is slightly better than other resistance bonuses in that its 5 to all resists instead of 10 to one, and you rarely face situations where only one resistance is an issue. still, 5 is even more negligible than 10, especially with the increased level cap.

orc - orc DK's will hurt. blood fury racial bonus + axe expertise + command will make for some monster pve dps DK's. more ap, better dps from axes, and more damage from ghouls are a min/maxers dream. the stun resistance is just icing at this point. tanking orc DK's will be nice and beefy too, with a passive bonus to stun resistance added in with the expertise making for a creamy mix of tanking goodness.

tauren - tauren DK's will be pretty monstrous as well. war stomp gives another stun (albeit one on DR) and adds more control over casters (possibly as a way to force mages to blink before gripping them back). the passive HP bonus will make tauren tanks the premier "new content" tanks for the horde. for hern and nature resist, see above comments about profs and resists.

troll - troll DK's will be similar to dwarfs imo; rather meh. the berserking bonus will probably eat runic power, which may or may not be a good thing depending on how abundant it is. berserking also suffers from the constraints of only being truly effective at low health, and low health is exactly what most people want to avoid regardless of the situation. still, from a soloing perspective, given the plethora of self-healing a DK looks to have, zerking might actually be pretty decent. let yourself get low, hit zerking, then heal back up to full as you grind.

bow/throwing expertise is nothing, and regeneration is still poopy (unless it somehow synergizes with DK self-healing abilities in some unforeseen way, which i doubt it will but you never know). more damage vs beasts is actually not too bad from a pvp perspective; troll DK's might be able to make druids pay for going into their feral forms. the question is, will the troll make them pay more than an orc could? my gut feeling says no, but again, its hard to say for sure early in the game.

undead - undead death knights are a natural fit. from an aesthetic perspective, whats cooler than being an undead guy walking around with your own army of undead, risen from the bodies of your slain foes? maybe if the army was comprised of undead puppies or something, but theyd have to be really badass puppies. from a more serious perspective, undead fit about the middle of the pack. WotF will be nice in pvp and tanking as another fear break that doesnt require using lichborn, and cannibalize is always nice for pvp and soloing, but in terms of pve dps undead probably sit near the back. orcs and trolls will put out more raw damage thanks to their racials, while even belves will be able to gain from runic power every 2 minutes with torrent.

underwater breathing is kinda nice from a pve or world/bg pvp perspective, and the shadow resist is like all other resists.

final horde tally:

pve tanking -
tauren
orc
undead
troll/belf

pve dps -
orc
troll
belf
tauren/undead

world/bg pvp -
tauren/orc/undead
belf
troll

arena pvp -
belf/tauren
orc/undead
troll

thoughts?

Good post. I'll be making at least 2 death knights, one Alliance on my friends server and Gnome is close to a no brainer for me.

Horde side is tougher to decide, I want to juggle looks (blood elf), PVP (orc) and PVE tank (tauren). Tauren will also be solid in PVP do to HP scaling and warstomp. I'm leaning on Gnome and Tauren (what a combo!) as I'd probably tank and PVP, doubtful I would DPS in PVE. But the idea of a female blood elf in dark black plate with a big 2h sword is appealing...

the reason why i listed belves where i did is because of synergy with other belves. arcane torrent isnt on any kind of DR, while war stomp is, both with itself and with other controlled stuns. alone, AT isnt much, but in a 5's group with 2 or 3 other belves, you're talking about an 6-10s lockdown on casting. add a tauren in for a stomp and youre cooking with gas.

AT also has the nice side effect of being less prone to resist checks than war stomp is on account of the prevalence of stun resist nowadays.

thats why i listed belves where i did. it doesnt devalue tauren in any way thanks to what war stomp is capable of, but for arena-minded folks, if youve already got one or two tauren, rolling belf DK would be a better idea, cause a 2s silence on the GCD is going to be better in a coordinated group setting than a 1s or .5s stun with a .5s cast time. conversely, if you've got a belf rogue, pally and priest already, obviously youd want a tauren DK.

Edited, May 26th 2008 8:58pm by Quor

Ok, so maybe I missed something, but where was it said that the race will actually be a choice and the DK not be its very own race?

Death Knight is a Hero Class not a Hero Race, so it being its own race makes as much sense as Paladin being the Paladin's race.

As to the announcement of all races being open to Death Knights: read this. That's not the first place it could be found, but it is official.

On topic though: I'm really having no clue what race my Deathknight will be. I think it will all come down to aesthetics again for me. I have 2 Humans, 1 Night Elf, and 1 Draenei to 70. I have another Night Elf and another Draenei that are on their way (60 and 42 respectively). I'd love to get a Dwarf and/or Gnome up there, but I just don't like them that much, and seeing the exclusivity of Death Knights, I can't see myself "wasting" mine on a race I don't have any particular love for.

I do agree with the ideas floating around for the racials though, and have been milling over them in my mind anyway. Particularly I think for Alliance the Draenei's GotN would be very nice for a DK. Not just to have a healing ability while leveling, but I hear mention of a talent for DKs that they have increased power when near full health? This could help out tremendously during AOE type encounters to help keep the DK in tip-top shape. And as mentioned, the Dreanei's +1% to hit goes well with their melee group buffing.

Horde side, if I were to make one, I'm sure I'd probably go with a Tauren. 1) I don't PvP so no sense to worry about combo racials with other BEs and all that 2) they've always been my favorite race, and if it were possible, I'd have a Tauren Paladin as my main (how funky would that be >.>) 3) Seeing how DKs won't be able to Block, I'd imagine they will have to rely on a generally higher health pool and pure avoidance to tank, much the way a Druid does. The health boost from being a Tauren would be very beneficial here. Yes it's great for Tauren Warriors too, but my guess is even more so for DKs.

Edited, May 27th 2008 3:47am by Maulgak

It won't make much of a difference... but it will make one.

As a Dwarven Rogue, I'm pretty jealous of human rogues - they can be Expertise cap by simply using the Shard of Contempt... I need the Shard + another item, which means that ultimately, they can itemize themselves to do more dps than me because of that 1 racial!

It may only account for about 1% more dps, but that's 1% dps that I can never really catch up to.

Then of course you add in Diplomacy (Which while not game breaking, is an awesome all around passive racial!) and Perception which is possibly the strongest racial a rogue can have in pvp... and yeah, I regret taking Dwarf because 'They look cool!' 3 years ago.

I'd rather not do the same mistake with my DK :P.



Edited, May 27th 2008 5:15pm by Tyrandor

First, we don't know yet (that I am aware of) whether spell damage is going to be a big factor, or whether their spell damage will scale with AP instead, or some other mechanic. Also, since DKs don't have a mana pool and their DPS is based on melee with some spell damage attached to it, I can't see the need for taking Paladin plate as there will be a lot of wasted points. Honestly, I see DKs being more like a Ret Paladin, which thanks to recent patches, do not go for spell damage on their items. If they happen to get it, fine, but it is not stacked/sought out.

Secondly, GotN and the 1% hit have nothing to do with a DK's spell damage. I would assume DKs will get a 1% to physical hit, not spell hit. And GotN, does it scale with +healing? Whether it does or not, it's not uber enough to warrant itemizing to make it better, giving up better stats for the DK's tanking/DPSing ability.

Thirdly, I read somewhere that DKs will only wield 2H weapons. Is this true? If so, your whole thing about BE racials and being low on health while duel wielding that I did not understand at all is completely null-and-void :S

What I meant about a BE Death Knight is the say in example: You're in the arena and low on health and a mage is about to firebolt you you could then Grip of Death(was that what the pulling move was called?), Freeze them, Arcane burst you should be able to do that before they finnish casting another spell and then you can wail on them with 2 fast 1-handers and regain your health through Blood Presence.(If you could macro that it could prolly work as a sort of "Save me" button.)


And about the whole spell damage thing with Draenei I was just guessing that at least some of the DK's armor will have +Spell Damage considering their threat generation scales with frost damage and their Unholy which is their "PvP DPS Tree" even has a ability that scales Spell Damage with AP so it seems like there will be +Spell Damage on DK plate and thus there is an equvilant amount of + healing which a Draenei DK can use with GotN to help them regain some health which seems like it could work rather well for either tanking, soloing, or PvP.

And the +1% to hit that Dranei get would help their damage output on because lets face it they are a melee tank caster class like the pally they are gonna need to be able to hit things in melee so hey +1% is +1% and it benefits your whole group so I don't know why you Decided that it wouldn't be much help Maulgak.... Though I guess you might have been saying that It wouldn't help your spell damage output much, Because of the way I posted I kind of tend to forget my grammer when I get on a roll about subjects that intrest me, but that too will prolly be wrong as I stated earlyer for all the info blizz has released this is looking to be melee caster which means if your melee doesn't hit your spell damage doesn't hit.(isn't that how it is with pally seals and the ret insta- attack talent spell and storm strike on shammys?)


PS. The only tree that looks like a Ret. Pally is blood which will Prolly have gear sets more like the Ret. Pallys but the Frost and Unholy sets will Likely have +Spell Damage which means that Itemzing will prolly not be a problem.


PPS. Love your Sig Maulgak have a Tankadin myself. ^.^

Why should DK's be horde only why can't a human who has had his soul stolen who then regained control over his will not want to go back to a human civilization?

Besides if blizz gave DK's to only horde then(at least on my server) horde would be flooded with a buntch of immature children who want to play the cool looking Death Knights.

Wow, that's the most ridiculous thing in this thread just now. Horde only Death Knight? No reasonable explanation why a Horde only Death Knight? If you want something that is Horde only and Alliance only, turn back time and go to pre-TBC.

ROFL - if I didn't love my current sig so much, I'd sig that. It's full of win ^^

But yes, I was referring to a 1% physical hit not doing anything for your spells, but this is under the assumption that some of these abilities will be independent of your weapon attacks. Physical hit will help if the spell is similar to Seal or Righteousness in that if the weapon strike doesn't land, your Seal doesn't either, but if they are more like Exorcism, it won't matter if your weapon hits or not.

On the flip side, those same abilities, regardless of how they function, could go off of a physical hit instead of spell hit like various Paladin abilities used for tanking. In that case having the 1% physical hit racial for a Draenei would come into play for spells much more.

I will have to look and find it again, but I'm sure I read somewhere from a Blizz developer that DKs would be using Warrior gear which led me to believe their Frost/Shadow damage would scale with AP or something rather then making it necessary to stack spell damage (think the reverse of how Warlock's shadow damage affects pet attack power). If this is way off, I hope that someone can point me to some info disproving this theory :)

Also, dual-wielding keeps coming up. Can someone link to where it says they can do this? Again, it's come up a few times, but I don't recall seeing anything "official" saying they can do this, but only that they will wield 2H weapons. I can't really see a DK using anything BUT a big 2H, and the starting gear for DKs includes a blue 2H, but that of course doesn't mean they won't be able to dual-wield. Just would liek to know "for sure".

Thank you :)

EDIT: took out rest of my comment as I did a bit more searching and found a few sources for the dual-wield info. Thanks again :)

Edited, May 29th 2008 6:47pm by Maulgak

I make races usually on whatever the croud ISNT making, dunno why, it just makes me feel special. NE sounds good for the dodge for tanking and their rarity....human death knight it too...uhh...normal sounding, and gnome...just sounds sweet. Why does everything always have to be so logical?