Well I am starting to get to a good amount of badges and I can foresee buying something very soon. My only dilemma is what to purchase. Now I have the issue of wearing a green belt and very blah blue bracers. Though I could upgrade those I am worried that I would be better off buying the big 100 badge chest. I will link my armory so you can see for your selves as I would value some fellow rogue input.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Perenolde&n=Byntre
PS. I have looked at the spreadsheets for info but I can't seem to make a decision.
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Just check the armory later, Devz. That has been happening with my Shammy as of late. One second I can check my armory the next, that's been going up.
munter wrote:
My only dilemma is what to purchase.
PS. I have looked at the spreadsheets for info but I can't seem to make a decision.
PS. I have looked at the spreadsheets for info but I can't seem to make a decision.
?
Purchase what gives the highest DPS increase according to the spreadsheet. End of story.
Scholar
36 posts
I would try to ignore the color of an item and just use the spreadsheet to see what gives you the biggest upgrade. I used Eva's Strap for the longest time since it has hit rating as well as AP (attack power). It's definitely nice even though it's green and a quest reward.
You also probably need to get/change some enchants as well as regem some of your gear. Are you trying to pvp as well as pve in this set of gear? You are missing a head enchant (need to get CE exalted rep fast so you can get that +34ap/+16hit enchant), probably better off getting +12agi to cloak, +6stats to chest, a leg armor (buy from AH) 40ap/10crit around 225-250g.
Not sure you need stam gems...perhaps it's better just to go +4hit/+4agi or +16ap where you can.
Also, I would also read some of the other threads like theo's pvp thread as well as others since there's a ton of great info here.
anyways, I'm not the greatest rogue so take what I say with a grain of salt. I'm waiting for the other experienced rogues to chime in as well :)
You also probably need to get/change some enchants as well as regem some of your gear. Are you trying to pvp as well as pve in this set of gear? You are missing a head enchant (need to get CE exalted rep fast so you can get that +34ap/+16hit enchant), probably better off getting +12agi to cloak, +6stats to chest, a leg armor (buy from AH) 40ap/10crit around 225-250g.
Not sure you need stam gems...perhaps it's better just to go +4hit/+4agi or +16ap where you can.
Also, I would also read some of the other threads like theo's pvp thread as well as others since there's a ton of great info here.
anyways, I'm not the greatest rogue so take what I say with a grain of salt. I'm waiting for the other experienced rogues to chime in as well :)
Alrighty, I'm just gonna give you a critique of everything I see wrong on your armory. Note no matter what I say if the spreadsheet says to do something else do it.
Get the CE Head enchant on your helm.
Grab the 12 AGI enchant next time you upgrade your cloak.
Get rid of the sh*t gems in your chest piece and get the +8 Hit Gems or the +4 Hit/+4 AGI. Also get +6 Stats on your chest piece next time you upgrade inseatd of 100 Health.
AGI enchant on your gloves instead of AP.
Get a Patch for you pants, doesn't have to be the epic one if you want to be cheap but at least get the Blue Cobrahide Patch.
Put Mongoose on your OH as well.
Take the point out of Master of Deception, its just stupid and put it in Vile Poisons.
Other than that you seem to be good.
Now, as for the Chest versus the Belt. To decide you should really use the spreadsheet but also look at where you are in raiding. You have the T4 pants so I assume you have Gruul's down.
Look at your raiding schedule and check the boss drops. Are there any good chest pieces coming up? Are there any good belts coming up? If the answer to those two is yes/no, then get the belt. If it is no/yes, get the chest. If it is Yes/Yes use the Spreadsheet. If it is No/No use the spreadsheet.
Hope I was able to help abit.
EDIT: And never use AP gems. +8 Hit or +4 Hit/+4 Agi. Thats all thats allowed.
Edited, May 20th 2008 2:23pm by GodOfMoo
Get the CE Head enchant on your helm.
Grab the 12 AGI enchant next time you upgrade your cloak.
Get rid of the sh*t gems in your chest piece and get the +8 Hit Gems or the +4 Hit/+4 AGI. Also get +6 Stats on your chest piece next time you upgrade inseatd of 100 Health.
AGI enchant on your gloves instead of AP.
Get a Patch for you pants, doesn't have to be the epic one if you want to be cheap but at least get the Blue Cobrahide Patch.
Put Mongoose on your OH as well.
Take the point out of Master of Deception, its just stupid and put it in Vile Poisons.
Other than that you seem to be good.
Now, as for the Chest versus the Belt. To decide you should really use the spreadsheet but also look at where you are in raiding. You have the T4 pants so I assume you have Gruul's down.
Look at your raiding schedule and check the boss drops. Are there any good chest pieces coming up? Are there any good belts coming up? If the answer to those two is yes/no, then get the belt. If it is no/yes, get the chest. If it is Yes/Yes use the Spreadsheet. If it is No/No use the spreadsheet.
Hope I was able to help abit.
EDIT: And never use AP gems. +8 Hit or +4 Hit/+4 Agi. Thats all thats allowed.
Edited, May 20th 2008 2:23pm by GodOfMoo
Thank you very much all!
I understand that my chest is mis-gemmed but I am waiting on a replacement before I fill it with gems. I didn't know about the agility to gloves enchant and I will look into that for sure. I will mess with the spreadsheet some more to check out what is the best upgrade and thanks again folks!
I understand that my chest is mis-gemmed but I am waiting on a replacement before I fill it with gems. I didn't know about the agility to gloves enchant and I will look into that for sure. I will mess with the spreadsheet some more to check out what is the best upgrade and thanks again folks!
IMO i would get the new fist weapons, they will give you a 12dps increase on the fist alone.
Actually Speed is right.
Get the fists first.
Get the fists first.
I got over 40dps increase by buying the belt and pants. The belt was the biggest upgrade from all the badge items.
And unless there is a bug in the newest DSP spreasheet, the fists are only as good as S2 swords (for combat)
And unless there is a bug in the newest DSP spreasheet, the fists are only as good as S2 swords (for combat)
There must have been a bug in your spreadsheet. Did you respec to fists? Comparing the S2 swords to Vanir's Fists
S2 Swords
97.7 dps
20 Hit rating
38 Crit rating
60 AP
Vanir's Fists
103.0 dps
21 Hit rating
88 AP
44 Haste rating
Considering the crit rating difference is made up by taking fist specialization, the fists look better in stats and, for me at least, look better in the spreadsheet.
S2 Swords
97.7 dps
20 Hit rating
38 Crit rating
60 AP
Vanir's Fists
103.0 dps
21 Hit rating
88 AP
44 Haste rating
Considering the crit rating difference is made up by taking fist specialization, the fists look better in stats and, for me at least, look better in the spreadsheet.
That was probably a little exaggerated - they are as good as ToA, about 10dps better than S2 swords on my gear.
The problem with them is probably that: 1 - the mainhand is too fast, and 2 - sword specialization is better.
The problem with them is probably that: 1 - the mainhand is too fast, and 2 - sword specialization is better.
The MH is not too fast. If nothing else that speed is better as long as the top out damage is there. White hitting is going to be over half of your total dps.
Yea Sword spec is better, but not THAT much better.
Also it doesn't matter the speed on it, its still 103 DPS.
Also it doesn't matter the speed on it, its still 103 DPS.
Wytryszek wrote:
I got over 40dps increase by buying the belt and pants. The belt was the biggest upgrade from all the badge items.
And unless there is a bug in the newest DSP spreasheet, the fists are only as good as S2 swords (for combat)
And unless there is a bug in the newest DSP spreasheet, the fists are only as good as S2 swords (for combat)
Are you SERIOUSLY using the WORST BOOTS in the history of raiding?
I mean, Rapscallion Boots are worse, but I didn't think that anyone has actually taken either of the two to use, since they're pretty much ****.
I mean, Black Featherlight Boots are crap too, but at least they have a substantial amount of hit on them, so I can see a rogue using them if they don't have anything else.
But on topic, badge fists are better than any weapons in the game outside of S3 swords/warglavies/SWP swords.
Blade of infamy/savagery beats them though, with my gear/buff according to the spreadsheet linked in the first post of Roguecraft 101 by about 24 dps. But yeah, basicaly if you aren't in hyjal/bt they are better than anything you can get.
Quote:
Purchase what gives the highest DPS increase according to the spreadsheet. End of story.
Sort of. But factor in the badge to upgrade ratio as well.
Heres an example of what I mean, I'm not even looking at loot though
You plug numbers into a spreadsheet, and see <100 badge item> gives you a 45 DPS increase. You'd be upgrading a good blue to an amazing piece here. But you're still wearing a green <item>. You see a badge item <50 badges> can give you a 27 DPS increase.
The 100 badge item gives you the biggest DPS upgrade, but it's not the most cost effective. It's basically 0.45 DPS per badge. The cheaper item is a better DPS-to-badge ratio (0.54 DPS per badge).
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Are you SERIOUSLY using the WORST BOOTS in the history of raiding?
Of course I am not using them for raiding. Did the stamina enchant on them not give you any hint? They are my poor attempt at a PvP set, to replace ******** of hit rating I don't need at all in BG.
Overlord Theophany wrote:
But on topic, badge fists are better than any weapons in the game outside of S3 swords/warglavies/SWP swords.
I already said a few times that the newest DPS spreadsheet shows ToA + Akil'zon's talonblade are equivalent for raiding (maybe not for PvP - the spreasheet stopped displaying not-buffed DPS). ToA hits for the same damge as the fist MH, due to speed difference. The 6dps gap in white damage is really tiny and easily covered by the fact that sword spec is generally better.
Who knows, maybe the spreadsheet is wrong, but I am not taking a chance of wasting over 100 badges for a downgrade.
Wytryszek wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Are you SERIOUSLY using the WORST BOOTS in the history of raiding?
Of course I am not using them for raiding. Did the stamina enchant on them not give you any hint? They are my poor attempt at a PvP set, to replace sh*tload of hit rating I don't need at all in BG.
Overlord Theophany wrote:
But on topic, badge fists are better than any weapons in the game outside of S3 swords/warglavies/SWP swords.
I already said a few times that the newest DPS spreadsheet shows ToA + Akil'zon's talonblade are equivalent for raiding (maybe not for PvP - the spreasheet stopped displaying not-buffed DPS). ToA hits for the same damge as the fist MH, due to speed difference. The 6dps gap in white damage is really tiny and easily covered by the fact that sword spec is generally better.
Who knows, maybe the spreadsheet is wrong, but I am not taking a chance of wasting over 100 badges for a downgrade.
Which spreadsheet are you using?
Edit: because Aldrianna's put fists at over 25 DPS higher than Talon + Akil'zon.
Edited, May 22nd 2008 2:17am by Theophany
GodOfMoo wrote:
Yea Sword spec is better, but not THAT much better.
Also it doesn't matter the speed on it, its still 103 DPS.
Also it doesn't matter the speed on it, its still 103 DPS.
The speed difference is enough that 103dps 2.5s weapon hits for less (per hit) than 97dps 2.7s weapon. So you will actually see your SS/hemo and WF a sword spec attacks all do less damage. It is a small difference, and if you were comparing 2 swords you would still win with the 103dps one simply from the white damage difference. But add to that even a fractional % dps loss from switching from swords to fists, and you suddenly find this is not an upgrade at all.
Well, maybe with some trinkets oriented on crit, the higher crit rate from fist spec would pull ahead, but with my current ones (+hit and +expertise) I don't see any gain.
Wytryszek wrote:
GodOfMoo wrote:
Yea Sword spec is better, but not THAT much better.
Also it doesn't matter the speed on it, its still 103 DPS.
Also it doesn't matter the speed on it, its still 103 DPS.
The speed difference is enough that 103dps 2.5s weapon hits for less (per hit) than 97dps 2.7s weapon. So you will actually see your SS/hemo and WF a sword spec attacks all do less damage. It is a small difference, and if you were comparing 2 swords you would still win with the 103dps one simply from the white damage difference. But add to that even a fractional % dps loss from switching from swords to fists, and you suddenly find this is not an upgrade at all.
Well, maybe with some trinkets oriented on crit, the higher crit rate from fist spec would pull ahead, but with my current ones (+hit and +expertise) I don't see any gain.
You're aware that 60% of our damage comes from white damage, right?
Pretty sure 103 > 97.
Well guys I am going to buy the fist weapons and I am only about 90 badges away heh. Through getting those badges though I should be able to upgrade all of my gear through karazhan and gruuls/mags.
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Which spreadsheet are you using?
because Aldrianna's put fists at over 25 DPS higher than Talon + Akil'zon.
I am using the standard DPS spreadsheet v2.4.2.1
You can reproduce this very easily:
1 - select the premade T5 gear and combat sword specs. You should get 1652dps
2 - select now Vanir's Right fist and combat sword+fist. You lose 1dps
3 - add left fist and move 4 talents to poisons. You are back to 1652dps.
Wytryszek wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Which spreadsheet are you using?
because Aldrianna's put fists at over 25 DPS higher than Talon + Akil'zon.
I am using the standard DPS spreadsheet v2.4.2.1
You can reproduce this very easily:
1 - select the premade T5 gear and combat sword specs. You should get 1652dps
2 - select now Vanir's Right fist and combat sword+fist. You lose 1dps
3 - add left fist and move 4 talents to poisons. You are back to 1652dps.
Hate to break it to you, but there have been flaws in the math found with the rogue.raidcal spreadsheet. Aldrianna's (link found in the Rogue Compendium) is a more accurate spreadsheet.
Thanks to the evaluation I was making a couple posts above I am quite convinced you just can not pull +25dps out of that weapon. And in fact, what is that 25dps number you mention? Is it a nubmer after you substract the overall DPS loss from switching to fists? Or before? What gear level are you using in the comparison? T6?
Common sense tells that you can't produce +25dps out of 6dps more on autoattack (I used "white damage" term before, but that was not correct). Weapon damage component for autoattack is affected only by haste and crit. So multiply this by 1.3 (S&D) and 1.4 (crit) and you get +11dps, which is later reduced by mob armor, glancing blows and any misses. And we already said that you even LOSE dps on special attacks due to the speed difference.
You probably could get more dps gain from stats on the weapon than from that +6dps.
So, +25dps my ***. I am with the DPS spreadsheet in this case.
At least not buying the fists seems to be a safer choice for me. Can always fix that later if the spreadsheet is proven wrong.
Common sense tells that you can't produce +25dps out of 6dps more on autoattack (I used "white damage" term before, but that was not correct). Weapon damage component for autoattack is affected only by haste and crit. So multiply this by 1.3 (S&D) and 1.4 (crit) and you get +11dps, which is later reduced by mob armor, glancing blows and any misses. And we already said that you even LOSE dps on special attacks due to the speed difference.
You probably could get more dps gain from stats on the weapon than from that +6dps.
So, +25dps my ***. I am with the DPS spreadsheet in this case.
At least not buying the fists seems to be a safer choice for me. Can always fix that later if the spreadsheet is proven wrong.
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