I have a Lvl 64 rogue going on 70. He's been Combat the whole way, a solid spec, but its becoming somewhat one-dimensional for me seeing as how I've done the toe-to-toe DPS thing with a Fury War in the past. It's time to try a playstyle a bit more.....Sinister/Strike from the shadows kinda thing.
So here I am, deciding whether a Shadowstep or Mutilate build will be more up my alley for a lvl70 PvP lifestyle. I understand both builds on paper, but how they play out mechanically?
From what I understand Subtlety plays out with Ambush opener but thats about it, im clueless as to what Mutilate is like but I hear alot of PvP'ers praise it.
Thanks for the read, I'll be trying both specs, just wanna make sure I tap them to thier fullest when I take them for a spin.
Edited, May 19th 2008 5:04pm by Zaknalfein
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Nearing 70, deciding on Mut or ShSFollow
Zaknalfein wrote:
From what I understand Subtlety plays out with Ambush opener but thats about it
Hmmm... no. Deep Sub means Hemo spec, which means slow weapons (maces, swords, fists). And you can't Ambush with those weapons. So definitely not Ambush.
Hemo is a great spec with very high versatility and survivability. Probably the easiest way to pvp and do well in most situations. I've been playing it for a long time.
Muti is much more burst damage oriented and can deliver a high amount of dam when it's needed. That's why I'm going to try it. But that's because I mainly do arena with a DisPriest where Muti is apparently best. My guess is that Muti is harder to play and more risky. If you don't manage to stick to your target, you can be kited easily. I wouldn't recommend it as a first pvp spec.
To summarise: stick to combat swords if you want to pve. If you want to pvp, I think that Hemo will serve you better as a fresh 70.
nostra
Edited, May 20th 2008 9:11am by nostraaa
Mut is fun, but highly impractical.
I prefer ShS or combat over it by far.
I prefer ShS or combat over it by far.
Cheat Death man, Cheat Death. It will save your ***.
Oh look Cheat Death Procced, CloS > Vanish. /snicker
Oh look Cheat Death Procced, CloS > Vanish. /snicker
Thanks for the replies guys, exactly what I was looking for.
Im thinking I'll grind out Combat-Swords to 70, then it's ShS/Hemo from there.
Hmmm... no. Deep Sub means Hemo spec, which means slow weapons (maces, swords, fists). And you can't Ambush with those weapons. So definitely not Ambush.
Question, Wasn't Hemo nominalized for wep speed in 2.3 or 2.4 (Cant remember), meaning Daggers are now viable?
Im thinking I'll grind out Combat-Swords to 70, then it's ShS/Hemo from there.
nostraaa wrote:
Zaknalfein wrote:
From what I understand Subtlety plays out with Ambush opener but thats about it
Hmmm... no. Deep Sub means Hemo spec, which means slow weapons (maces, swords, fists). And you can't Ambush with those weapons. So definitely not Ambush.
Question, Wasn't Hemo nominalized for wep speed in 2.3 or 2.4 (Cant remember), meaning Daggers are now viable?
Daggers are not really viable in ShS, although I'm in a build now for PvP on the Isle that is a lot of fun. But if you are in arenas in a shs dagger build, you will get burnt. I tried in arena last night with this build and got destroyed, never was top dmg, and pretty much was laughed at (which doesn't bother me, I do arena for the points, don't think we've ever capped 1600!).
A shs Dagger build is based on a huge crit ambush opener, and a crit backstab, and then you're pretty much done. The sustainable damage just isn't there.
A shs Dagger build is based on a huge crit ambush opener, and a crit backstab, and then you're pretty much done. The sustainable damage just isn't there.
Quote:
A shs Dagger build is based on a huge crit ambush opener, and a crit backstab, and then you're pretty much done. The sustainable damage just isn't there.
Not to mention that burst won't be enough to kill most targets.
If they have some pvp gear, and a healthy amount of resilience and hp they will still be standing after your ambush > backstab combo.
An SL/SL warlock for example, will probably still easily have 50% hp after your 'combo'
ThomasMagnum wrote:
A shs Dagger build is based on a huge crit ambush opener, and a crit backstab, and then you're pretty much done. The sustainable damage just isn't there.
Thanks, this pretty much put it in perspective for me.
Zaknalfein wrote:
Question, Wasn't Hemo nominalized for wep speed in 2.3 or 2.4 (Cant remember), meaning Daggers are now viable?
If this is true... then I'm not aware of it. I was pretty convinced that daggers were still terrible for ShS builds. If it wasn't the case, I'm sure I'd have seen such builds around, which I have not (in game or on forums/armories). Maybe other know better?
nostra
nostraaa wrote:
Zaknalfein wrote:
Question, Wasn't Hemo nominalized for wep speed in 2.3 or 2.4 (Cant remember), meaning Daggers are now viable?
If this is true... then I'm not aware of it. I was pretty convinced that daggers were still terrible for ShS builds. If it wasn't the case, I'm sure I'd have seen such builds around, which I have not (in game or on forums/armories). Maybe other know better?
nostra
it is true that weapons were normalized, but weapon speed isnt the only thing that matters. also, daggers are normalized at 1.7 (yeah? been awhile since ive talked about daggers), where swords/maces/fists are 2.4
Bottom line, daggers dont have the single hit damage required for hemo.
Edited, May 20th 2008 8:46am by KTurner
Let's put the dagger issue to rest. It is not normalized, and even if it was dagger non-mutilate would not be a good build.
Shs Daggers has:
Less sustained DPS than every other build.
Worst combo point generation (backstab is much worse than hemo)
Worst positioning requirement.
Worst control (even if I ran ShS dags, I might still open with CS over Ambush)
Worst poison application (because in dagger builds you can't afford 20 in assassination)
Let's not discuss how disastrous it is to have poor poisons and also a positional attack requirement.
And no, you don't use hemo with daggers. That would be worse than what I described above.
Shs Daggers has:
Less sustained DPS than every other build.
Worst combo point generation (backstab is much worse than hemo)
Worst positioning requirement.
Worst control (even if I ran ShS dags, I might still open with CS over Ambush)
Worst poison application (because in dagger builds you can't afford 20 in assassination)
Let's not discuss how disastrous it is to have poor poisons and also a positional attack requirement.
And no, you don't use hemo with daggers. That would be worse than what I described above.
NeroSeekerOfSouls wrote:
Quote:
A shs Dagger build is based on a huge crit ambush opener, and a crit backstab, and then you're pretty much done. The sustainable damage just isn't there.
Not to mention that burst won't be enough to kill most targets.
If they have some pvp gear, and a healthy amount of resilience and hp they will still be standing after your ambush > backstab combo.
An SL/SL warlock for example, will probably still easily have 50% hp after your 'combo'
Correct, and that's exactly what happened. I did around 20k damage in a 5v5, which is terrible.
I think I posted on this build a few days ago - the only possible reason to be in a dagger/ambush/hemo/shs build is for insane crits on unsuspecting targets in world pvp. I sit on the Isle of QQ and shs/ambush people for 5k. A warlock at 75% health has no chance of even seeing me coming.
But then I have to vanish and wait for someone else to come along solo. If there is a large battle going on, I'm a sitting duck - it's worthless in mult-target environments.
Edited, May 20th 2008 12:02pm by ThomasMagnum
The reasons daggers suck compared to other weapons:
Hemo = weapon damage + normalized attack power
Dagger is normalized to 1.7. That means out of every 100ap, the attack hits for 12 damage more.
Non-daggers are normalized to 2.4. That means out of every 100ap, the attack hits for 17 damage more.
Compare those at the 1800AP that you should be seeing with decent gear. Daggers hit for 90 less damage.
It also uses the weapon's base damage. Let's compare the S3 dagger to the S3 sword.
The dagger hits for 185.5 damage on average.
The sword hits for 318 damage on average.
Hemo also adds 10% damage.
So with 1800AP:
Daggers hits for an average of 442 on Hemo.
Swords hits for an average of 686 on Hemo.
Swords (and maces and fists) hit significantly harder with Hemo, because of combined weapon damage + normalized attack power. Which is why hemo/daggers sucks.
Hemo = weapon damage + normalized attack power
Dagger is normalized to 1.7. That means out of every 100ap, the attack hits for 12 damage more.
Non-daggers are normalized to 2.4. That means out of every 100ap, the attack hits for 17 damage more.
Compare those at the 1800AP that you should be seeing with decent gear. Daggers hit for 90 less damage.
It also uses the weapon's base damage. Let's compare the S3 dagger to the S3 sword.
The dagger hits for 185.5 damage on average.
The sword hits for 318 damage on average.
Hemo also adds 10% damage.
So with 1800AP:
Daggers hits for an average of 442 on Hemo.
Swords hits for an average of 686 on Hemo.
Swords (and maces and fists) hit significantly harder with Hemo, because of combined weapon damage + normalized attack power. Which is why hemo/daggers sucks.
Scholar
34 posts
Have to agree with others. Having leveled a Rogue from 1-60 pre-BC as a Sub dagger rogue, and ALWAYS topping damage meters, and winning more than losing in PVP, I was disappointed to find that I couldn't kill anything in BC, and leveling was slow. I never touched hemo then, and it was/is terrible for daggers, as others said.
If you like Daggers (and what Rogue doesn't at some level), mutilate is the way to go, but it is a tough road. Swords, fists, or the ubiquitous mace is the way to go for now if you want to try ShS, or if you want to stick to combat.
If you like Daggers (and what Rogue doesn't at some level), mutilate is the way to go, but it is a tough road. Swords, fists, or the ubiquitous mace is the way to go for now if you want to try ShS, or if you want to stick to combat.
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