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So, you want to PvP as a DPS spec?Follow

#1 May 18 2008 at 11:09 PM Rating: Good
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Here is my meagre addition to the shaman forums, in the vein of my Rogue PvP FAQ, the Rogue Compendium, and my UI thread.

Taurrus spawned this idea in my head; there's so little information about PvPing as a DPS spec, that I thought I'd give a little more direction than what's currently available.

That, and I'm bored.

Keep in mind that both of these specs are usually mainly useful in 3v3 and 5v5, as they both suffer a bit for not having any CC as a DPS class, and that I'll be looking at them as such.

Mentality:
(or, How I Got Over The Preconception of "Resto or GTFO" and Started Melting Faces)

Now, first thing to note is that DPS shamans are fairly squishy. I say "fairly" because there are classes that are much more squishy. Hunter being one (they can't really wear big honking shields, can they?), druids being another, and any mage bust a frost mage for a third. Thus, you're more often than not going to be the primary focus target for the other team. It also has to do with the fact that you give the single strongest buff in the game (and the second for warriors/ret pallies), but who cares about buffs, right?

Basically what you're brought for, whether enhancement or elemental, is damage, offensive dispelling, and buffs (in that order, pretty much). You're not brought to heal, you're not brought to be a focus target that soaks damage, you're brought to do exactly those things.

Shaman damage is insane. Let me repeat that again, in case anyone doubts me.

Shaman damage is insane.

The burst potential of enhancement on a team with a rogue using Expose Armor and a Warrior basically demolishes clothies so fast that a paladin will be lucky to get a BoP off (even so, you can Purge it Smiley: tongue).

Elemental shamans don't even rely on WF. They just put out damage, plain and simple. I've seen an elemental shaman put out 80k damage before we killed him in a 45 sec to 1.5 min arena game, where either I or the warrior/feral on my team is doing 22-35k.

So your mentality should mainly be: lay down totems (generally will be grounding/WF/searing/earthbind/poison cleansing, grounding/WF will be pretty much up to you to learn which to use, as you'll want to time your grounding instead of just dropping it randomly), do damage, Purge out significant buffs like BoP, BoF, etc, and use Heroism/Bloodlust at an opportune time.

Before any shaman defeatists get their panties in a twist, this whole thread should be considered my opinion. I've not played a shaman extensively at 70 (but yes, I have an alt shaman at 70), and most of my knowledge comes from teaming with and playing against shamans.

Specs:

So, there are two specs for DPS shaman in arena: 40/0/21 and 0/48/13. There's a bit of fudge room on a few talents in enhancement, but it should end up similar.

Not really much to say beyond that. Let's talk about each individual spec and how they perform on a team.

Enhancement PvP:

Enhancement is very gear-reliant. If you don't like grinding gear--well, let's be honest--you're probably playing the wrong game.

Always always always get two of the main hand PvP weapons, unless you're talking about S3, where Blizzard put in a reduced cost OH that's 2.60 speed. Always always always use double WF.

Get a shield, and make a macro to swap between the two. I suggest this:

WoWwiki wrote:
/equipslot [equipped: One-Hand] 17 *shield to equip*
/equipslot [equipped: Shields] 17 *OH name*


That way with one button push, it'll cycle your OH to either a shield or your OH weapon. Keep in mind that you'll incur a GCD by switching weapons, so keep that in mind.

With that macro in mind, if you get focused and you're getting raped (likely), you're going to want to slap a shield on as long as there are melee attacking you. There are some teams that prefer to split DPS, so slapping that shield on and nerfing your DPS output and not taking less damage is pretty stupid, right?

The most common team comp with this spec is generally WRSH(X). That's Warrior, Rogue, Shaman (you), Holy Paladin, and one unknown. I prefer a mage in that spot personally, as they add considerable burst and control to a team, and it gives opportunities for the other team to split damage or train on the mage off the bat, as if you ride in with a shield + healing weapon, they'll think you're resto. Priest is another option that I prefer, almost more than a mage. With Pain Suppression, Mass Dispel, and heals, it's hard to beat for matches that may get drawn out (there won't be many with good offensive dispelling).

Other than that, PvP is pretty easy. Attack the focus target, shock casts (as you'll probably be on a squishy target), Purge your heart out, and don't die without using Bloodlust.

If you want my suggestion too, if you're a blacksmith (and you should be as enhancement), get dual Dragonstrikes.

Elemental PvP:

This is the true face melting spec. I absolutely love elemental shamans and hate them, too. Their damage is quite honestly frightening, even with Cloak of Shadows.

The main thing about this spec as opposed to enhancement, is that you have a shield on at all times.

The downside to that though, is that caster weapons look majorly different than healer weapons. You're gonna draw focus very early on.

My main advice to playing this spec is using NS offensively instead of defensively.

I can't tell you how many shamans I see blow NS on themselves to heal instead of dumping more damage while their paladin is casting a heal on them. It really, honestly, makes me sad.

Of course for this famous caster DPS, you've got a few options as far as cookie-cutter teams go.

Eurocomp is my personal fav, being a rogue. Eurocomp is RDiMLS. Rogue, disc priest, mage, shaman, lock.

2345 is an infamous comp, as it's generally considered a "no-skill" comp. WDiHSM. Pop Bloodlust, focus target, collect rating.

2346 is basically the same thing, but you swap a mage for a lock. Gives the team a little more survivability in addition to a felpuppy at the price of a bit of damage.

Summary:

Overall, you'll notice that both specs are put in a burst/buffing role, meaning that you're going to be:

a) focused first, and

b) healed first.

This is both good and bad, as opposing teams will probably have warriors, rogues, and the like on you ele shamans kicking and pummeling away. This is why every single team has a paladin on it for BoP.

For Enhancement, you'll notice I paired you up with a warrior and rogue. With a rogue using EA and a warrior getting WF, it's insanely easy to melee train a caster, even through a BoP. I strongly suggest a disc priest for the 5th in that comp, adding mass dispel for Ice Blocks, Pain Suppression to help keep you up, and additional dispels and heals, since you've got incredible damage already. Mage is a decent alternative, but lacks the offensive dispelling and defensive buffs for you.

I'd appreciate advice on making this post clearer or easier to understand. I'm all about promoting the viability of DPS shamans, as I think you guys do well in all of your roles, provided good gear and specs.
#2 May 19 2008 at 12:09 AM Rating: Decent
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i approve of this message.
#3 May 19 2008 at 7:08 AM Rating: Decent
Well played sir. Well played.
#4 May 19 2008 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm sorry, but this whole thread is about 99% opinion, 1% actual fact/strategy/help, and 100% thinly veiled attempt to continue carrying on your argument from the last PvP discussion. However, since this proves you're obviously not going away no matter how much we wish you would, I'm actually going to try to help you as much as I can.

The first thing you're going to have to do is stop avoiding the mention of 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3. Sorry, but if you want to convince us how great we are at PvP as DPS, this is something you're going to have to address sooner or later.

The second thing you're going to need to do is go out and actually play a God damned DPS Shaman seriously in PvP. That means putting all the effort into actually grinding out all of that gear (as you advocate) and taking it into all three brackets of the arena with intent to hit at least 1850. Your disclaimers (yes, before you even start, I did see them) are worth precisely jack. Go do your homework or don't show up to class in the first place.

Quote:
Specs:

So, there are two specs for DPS shaman in arena: 40/0/21 and 0/48/13. There's a bit of fudge room on a few talents in enhancement, but it should end up similar.

There are three, actually. While most Elementals spec 40/0/21 in 5v5 (and since that's the only thing you're willing to address, I'm not surprised it's the limit of your knowledge), 37/0/24 or some close variation (the point of which is to drop the unnecessary LO for the invaluable Focused Mind) is the better Elemental spec for 3v3 and 2v2.

Quote:
The most common team comp with this spec is generally WRSH(X). That's Warrior, Rogue, Shaman (you), Holy Paladin, and one unknown.

And you're basing that info on... what, exactly, other than the fact that you play a Rogue and happen to PvP alongside a Shaman in order to use it as a buff-bot for your own benefit? Most high-rated arena teams that I've seen generally run with two healers--usually a Pally and a Disc Priest. So either you're running 4 DPS which, while not uncommon, is definitely not the most common, or your Shaman is Resto, in which case... What the hell is the point of this guide?

Warrior, Shaman, Mage/'Lock/Hunter, HPally, DPriest would be a much, much better set-up. Too bad it leaves you and your hard-on for WF out in the cold rain, but... Oh... Oh, I get it... I see what you did there.

Go home. Please. Both of you. Just go home.

Edited, May 19th 2008 1:11pm by Gaudion
#5 May 19 2008 at 8:55 AM Rating: Default
#6 May 19 2008 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
Are the two shamans that posted last just ***** or sad that they dont have good arena rating?

because it seems like everytime someone trys to give some advice to ppl that OMG dont know everything about shaman's someone has to be a complete ****.
#7 May 19 2008 at 9:24 AM Rating: Default
DeepStealth wrote:
Are the two shamans that posted last just Richards or sad that they dont have good arena rating?

because it seems like everytime someone trys to give some advice to ppl that OMG dont know everything about shaman's someone has to be a complete Richard.


Lurk Moar
#8 May 19 2008 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Skipping Gaudion's uncontrolled outburst...

Gaudion wrote:
Quote:
The most common team comp with this spec is generally WRSH(X). That's Warrior, Rogue, Shaman (you), Holy Paladin, and one unknown.

And you're basing that info on... what, exactly, other than the fact that you play a Rogue and happen to PvP alongside a Shaman in order to use it as a buff-bot for your own benefit? Most high-rated arena teams that I've seen generally run with two healers--usually a Pally and a Disc Priest. So either you're running 4 DPS which, while not uncommon, is definitely not the most common, or your Shaman is Resto, in which case... What the hell is the point of this guide?

Warrior, Shaman, Mage/'Lock/Hunter, HPally, DPriest would be a much, much better set-up. Too bad it leaves you and your hard-on for WF out in the cold rain, but... Oh... Oh, I get it... I see what you did there.

Go home. Please. Both of you. Just go home.

Uh, no, that's not a good comp at all. And rogues don't use WF in arena, BTW.

http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/5/us/all/all/all/1-2-4-5-7

And yeah, you apparently didn't read the whole paragraph that I put up there.

Overlord Theophany wrote:
Priest is another option that I prefer, almost more than a mage. With Pain Suppression, Mass Dispel, and heals, it's hard to beat for matches that may get drawn out (there won't be many with good offensive dispelling).

Gaudion, when you can post your arena ratings on any character and give me some info that isn't based on theorycraft, then we can talk. Until then, I'm doing something that you've either neglected to do or can't do. I'm beginning to think it's the latter instead of the former.
#9 May 19 2008 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Skipping Gaudion's uncontrolled outburst...


Why do you even frequent this forum at all Theo? No one but Quor respects your opinion here any more anyway. You have a singular obsession with getting the last word, even when you're wrong, dead wrong. Shaman players say the sky is blue, you will argue it is vanilla sky because you saw it one time in arena...

Overlord Theophany wrote:

Gaudion, when you can post your arena ratings on any character and give me some info that isn't based on theorycraft, then we can talk. Until then, I'm doing something that you've either neglected to do or can't do. I'm beginning to think it's the latter instead of the former.


You base your opinions on theorycraft more than any poster I've seen. Quor will at least make some logical arguments backed up with some external links, etc. You bring nothing but your bloated ego and opinions to the table. Every time I think I've seen the maximum jack-assery possible coming from you, you go ahead and top yourself. Plenty of times people have posted, and reposted logical examples countering your claims, to which you will either ignore, or do a complete about-face and change the topic.


Overlord Theophany wrote:

Gaudion, when you can post your arena ratings on any character...


We've been over this in the other thread, post your armory, blah blah...You've had your chance, you didn't follow through. You don't PvP with a shaman, your rogue does not entitle you to anything to lord over players who do. I could care less if your rogue is 2200+ or whatever you claim to be...If you're not doing arena/pvp as a shaman, particularly a DPS shaman, you're basing your opinion on nothing BUT theorycraft.

Oh, btw...gg stealing half of your so called 'guide' from my previous post, after trolling on it. Classy dude, classy. I'm sure we'll be due for a well thought out response in the vein of: "well u shamanz r morons and idiots and don't know how to PvPz like me!" Honestly man, you're nothing but a troll, granted a highly rated one, but a troll nonetheless.


Edited, May 19th 2008 3:16pm by Taurrus
#10 May 19 2008 at 11:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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I could use an explanation of Arena composition acronyms on this thread.

Just a nice list of ClassSpec = Acronym letter.

And what's the difference between 2345 and WDiSHM?
#11 May 19 2008 at 11:18 AM Rating: Decent
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#1. Class breakdown based on 2000+ bracket and 2200+ bracket.

Realm History Arena Class Breakdown

Rogue = #1 for 2000+ and 2200+ for 3v3, #2 for 2000+ 2v2, #3 for 2200+ 3v3.

Shaman = #8, #8, #6, #7

There are 2.5 times as many rogues as shamans in both 2v2 and 3v3 high rating teams. I don't think this is based SOLELY on player ability. Obviously this shows you can make it high with Shaman, but it shows that it is not as easy.

#2. Breakdown of specs

2v2
3v3
5v5

This shows the 5 most common specs for each of the brackets. If you look at 2v2, you'll notice VIRTUALLY EVERYONE is resto. 81% of shamans with 2200+ ratings in 2v2 are resto while 10% are elemental and 9% are enhancement. It's almost the same for 2000+ except enhancement didn't make the top 5 specs lol and you have 18% elemental.

In 3v3 you start to see a larger percent of dps shamans but they still don't break 50%. If they were equally "useful" to a team, you'd see 33% elemental, 33% enhancement, and 33% resto. Again, you don't see that though.

Now your argument has always been 5v5, but guess what? THAT'S WHERE SHAMAN DOESN'T HAVE ISSUES. Elemental shamans alone are almost breaking 50% of the shamans with high ratings.

Enhancement shaman has ... and will continue to have ONE major problem. Range and snare vs snare. No intercept, and too little control over a situation. Shamans are easily outdistanced by most classes unless they blew cooldowns on someone else. An elemental shaman can just shoot lightning bolts, but an enhancement shaman is shutdown if they can't get to their opponent.
#12 May 19 2008 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Raglu wrote:
I could use an explanation of Arena composition acronyms on this thread.

Just a nice list of ClassSpec = Acronym letter.

And what's the difference between 2345 and WDiSHM?

The "2345" came about when a team early on in S2 using the comp had their shaman blow Bloodlust and since they were trying to use all their main damage skills, some would accidentally hit the enter button, type "2345" and send it.

As for the acronyms, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Not many people use them beyond the obvious. I'm just weird.
#13 May 19 2008 at 11:41 AM Rating: Default
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Jiade wrote:
#1. Class breakdown based on 2000+ bracket and 2200+ bracket.

Realm History Arena Class Breakdown

Rogue = #1 for 2000+ and 2200+ for 3v3, #2 for 2000+ 2v2, #3 for 2200+ 3v3.

Shaman = #8, #8, #6, #7

There are 2.5 times as many rogues as shamans in both 2v2 and 3v3 high rating teams. I don't think this is based SOLELY on player ability. Obviously this shows you can make it high with Shaman, but it shows that it is not as easy.

#2. Breakdown of specs

2v2
3v3
5v5

This shows the 5 most common specs for each of the brackets. If you look at 2v2, you'll notice VIRTUALLY EVERYONE is resto. 81% of shamans with 2200+ ratings in 2v2 are resto while 10% are elemental and 9% are enhancement. It's almost the same for 2000+ except enhancement didn't make the top 5 specs lol and you have 18% elemental.

In 3v3 you start to see a larger percent of dps shamans but they still don't break 50%. If they were equally "useful" to a team, you'd see 33% elemental, 33% enhancement, and 33% resto. Again, you don't see that though.

Now your argument has always been 5v5, but guess what? THAT'S WHERE SHAMAN DOESN'T HAVE ISSUES. Elemental shamans alone are almost breaking 50% of the shamans with high ratings.

Enhancement shaman has ... and will continue to have ONE major problem. Range and snare vs snare. No intercept, and too little control over a situation. Shamans are easily outdistanced by most classes unless they blew cooldowns on someone else. An elemental shaman can just shoot lightning bolts, but an enhancement shaman is shutdown if they can't get to their opponent.

Yeah, holy crap, an overpopulated class has more representation in arenas than the least populated class in WoW! Your reasoning is totally sound!

This wasn't ever an argument that I was trying to "win" or convert people to. This is help so that while Sin, Gaudion, and other posters on these forums are whining about how DPS shamans aren't viable in arena, others can actually get some info on their class to do well in 3v3 and 5v5.

BTW, 5v5 is the bracket where snares and roots matter the least. There's a rogue/warrior in every comp that has an enhancement shaman for a reason.
#14 May 19 2008 at 12:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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We take our shaman advice from shamans...

edit: also, I suck at PvP...therefore I don't participate in it.



Edited, May 19th 2008 4:37pm by Ailitardif
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#15 May 19 2008 at 12:39 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
The first thing you're going to have to do is stop avoiding the mention of 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3. Sorry, but if you want to convince us how great we are at PvP as DPS, this is something you're going to have to address sooner or later.



Unfortunately for you, Blizzard mentioned many times that PvP is balanced around 5v5. Not 3v3, not 2v2 and even less 1v1. So you will need to drop it cause it's not going to happen.
#16 May 19 2008 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
We take our shaman advice from shamans...
[/i]


Exactly man, pretty much every post Theo makes on these forums consists of lording his rogue experience over people, and telling them why they need to learn to play because the class is fine. All of this from an outsider looking-in perspective.
#17 May 19 2008 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
feelz wrote:

Unfortunately for you, Blizzard mentioned many times that PvP is balanced around 5v5. Not 3v3, not 2v2 and even less 1v1. So you will need to drop it cause it's not going to happen.


Untrue, the lead developer for the game, re) Kalgan stated they wanted to make a DPS shaman spec viable for 2v2, enhancement was the spec they proposed.
#18 May 19 2008 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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Taurrus wrote:
Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
We take our shaman advice from shamans...
[/i]


Exactly man, pretty much every post Theo makes on these forums consists of lording his rogue experience over people, and telling them why they need to learn to play because the class is fine. All of this from an outsider looking-in perspective.


A 1700 rated 5v5 team is nothing to write home about...it doesn't even have a warlock on it.
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#19 May 19 2008 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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theo my opinion on this thread is i just don't like you, you smell funny, i have heard you like little boys, and someone told me you strangled a kitten, so you sir will burn in hell.

look I am really sure you started this thread here to really help us out and i know your such a caring person (roflmao)

seriously though did you think you would get a positive response after your last thread in here?

At this point there is no arguing or even having to say your trolling, you know it, we know it, so whatever have fun.

If only you could be put in jail for being a pain in alla forums i would love for someone to make you sit when you pee etc etc...
#20 May 19 2008 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The first thing you're going to have to do is stop avoiding the mention of 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3. Sorry, but if you want to convince us how great we are at PvP as DPS, this is something you're going to have to address sooner or later.

No he doesn't. Some classes blow in certain brackets, some blow in all brackets. Working as intended. Blizzard's even said it. The thing is, shammy PvP does not suck in certain situations, which you happily ignore in favor or more QQ.

EDIT:
Quote:
We take our shaman advice from shamans...

Which is another problem. You don't take advice from people who resemble you, you take advice from people who know what the hell they're talking about. Which means people who have played shammies, people who have partnered with shammies, people who have fought against shammies. If you don't, it's really not Theo's fault that you're too stubborn to actually take advice from someone who knows what they're talking about.

Edited, May 19th 2008 3:54pm by lsfreak
#21 May 19 2008 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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lsfreak wrote:

Which is another problem. You don't take advice from people who resemble you, you take advice from people who know what the hell they're talking about. Which means people who have played shammies, people who have partnered with shammies, people who have fought against shammies. If you don't, it's really not Theo's fault that you're too stubborn to actually take advice from someone who knows what they're talking about.



So I should take advice from people who work at a carwash? Besides, to anyone who has read anything on the shaman forums ever would know that Gaudion is the foremost authority on all things shaman (or at least Resto). Until SunSoarer comes here and says Gaudion is full of crap, I'll take my learnings from him over some rogue (no offense Theo...maybe a little)

Edited, May 19th 2008 5:04pm by Ailitardif
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#22 May 19 2008 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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humans have the rather rare ability to learn vicariously. that is to say, we dont necessarily need to do something in order to learn how to do it. we just need to watch someone else do it.

applying that to what we have here, and a person doesnt need to play a shaman to know how effective they are in arena. fighting vs shaman and playing alongside shaman provide enough information to learn from without actually playing a shaman.

now, youll note that theo makes no mention of how easy or hard it is to pvp as a shaman. he only outlines the most effective ways a shaman can go about achieving arena glory. how easy or hard that is will be up to you, but ill say this much; the best arena players dont go into arena with a defeatist mentality. theres no need for the other team to beat you if youve already beaten yourself, and beating oneself seems to be the raison d'etre of these forums.

Quote:
This shows the 5 most common specs for each of the brackets. If you look at 2v2, you'll notice VIRTUALLY EVERYONE is resto. 81% of shamans with 2200+ ratings in 2v2 are resto while 10% are elemental and 9% are enhancement. It's almost the same for 2000+ except enhancement didn't make the top 5 specs lol and you have 18% elemental.


100% of warriors at 2200+ in 2v2 are MS/second wind + enrage specced. 100% of druids at 2200+ in 2v2 are 7/11/40+2 cookie cutter arena spec. 100% of mages at 2200+ in 2v2 are at least 41 points into frost. "virtually everyone" really cant hold a candle to "absolutely everyone".

Quote:
Enhancement shaman has ... and will continue to have ONE major problem. Range and snare vs snare. No intercept, and too little control over a situation. Shamans are easily outdistanced by most classes unless they blew cooldowns on someone else. An elemental shaman can just shoot lightning bolts, but an enhancement shaman is shutdown if they can't get to their opponent.


two things: first off, an enhancement shaman is never completely shutdown if they cant get to their opponents. they can still purge, still shock, and still drop totems. when im disarmed i dont sit there cursing blizzard for removing disarm immunity. i refresh shouts, debuff my opponent if applicable, and utilize intervene and intercept to mitigate damage on my team. likewise, a snared or rooted enh shammy can still purge buffs (very valuable), shock spells (also valuable) and continue to provide group buffs from totems. but youre right in saying that snares and roots do cause a lot of problems for enh shaman.

which brings me to point 2:

youll note that in the comp theo suggested (and other enh shaman comps) a holy paladin is present. why? well, its not just because 5's is really the only place holy is viable anymore, but also because paladins provide the one singular buff that lets an enh shammy fulfill their ultimate purpose. that buff, ladies and gents, is blessing of freedom. of course, with a warrior in the group, it may be better to keep BoF on the war instead of the shammy, but youll also note that theo goes out of his way to suggest priest, specifically disc, as a 5th group member. this brings the strength of another offensive dispeller as well as mana burn, mass dispel, and perhaps most importantly, defensive dispel.

two things will generally happen as an enh shammy in 5's. either youre focused first, generally bringing a PS from the priest and possibly a BoP from the pally afterwards, or youre controlled in favor of another target (probably the priest). if youre focused, youre job is to kill one of them and bloodlust before you die (if you die, with a good team you probably wont, but the RNG is a harsh mistress). if youre not focused, youre controlled, and the combination of dispel from the priest and the addition of toughness will keep snares and roots off of you quite nicely. the only thing that would potentially be a problem would be a warrior with hamstring, but even then youre coming out ahead, because if the war is hammying you hes not on your priest and he wont have the rage generation to keep up with the constant reapplication of hammy on you every 5s unless hes being focus fired.

in other words, theo covered all the bases. and again, i say, i approve of him and his thread. its the first actual "hey, heres what to do as a shaman if you want to succeed as dps in arena" thread ive ever seen on these forums. its positive, its rather empowering (or it should be) and, true to form, its garnering a nice amount of bile from the locals. yet, as an experienced arena player who has played at the 2000+ level in S3 i can say that the information presented by theo is both valid and applicable. definetely more valid than any other shaman arena info ive seen on this board.
#23 May 19 2008 at 3:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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I agree that Shaman PvP has some serious issues - I'd PvP with my rogue, war, lock over my shaman any day simply b/c I live longer and get to do more damage. As a shaman, stuns and snares are deadly - there are few classes I feel comfortable taking head-on with the knowledge that I'd win. In 2v2 or 3v3, it's even worse - as a rogue, I view any shaman more or less as a free kill. In 5v5s, it's similar, except that another class may *possibly* get focused before me, which allows me to try and do maximum damage in the meantime, unless a rogue locks me down.

As much as I disagree with Theo's opinion of himself as an elite PvPer on his rogue (come on...you didn't even break 2k), I do think that his Shaman PvP guide is overall positive with some sound reasoning behind it. Despite not playing a shaman, he offers some solid advice and the "play shaman or gtfo" mentality is rather silly and counterproductive. Theorycraft or not, the majority of his advice is fairly accurate (and evidently he does have a shaman alt at 70...go figure).

Rather than try to trash his attempt at a PvP guide (which no one else has bothered to write), why not try to add constructive criticism? Don't like what he wrote? Make it better. It's not a perfect guide, but it's a good start. Gaudion mentioned a 37/0/24 spec for 2s and 3s - that's a good add. Keep things like that coming.


#24 May 19 2008 at 3:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,162 posts
Quote:
Untrue, the lead developer for the game, re) Kalgan stated they wanted to make a DPS shaman spec viable for 2v2, enhancement was the spec they proposed.


I'm talking about balance and you're talking about a viable dps spec. Do I really need to explain why a viable dps spec for shaman is not the same thing as balance.

Given same gear and skills in a 1v1, class x will always beat class y and class y will always beat class z. If you buff class y so they can beat class x then you have class x whining. Class y is now "viable" against class x but it doesn't equal to balance.

Balance is when any given class got a fighting chance against any other class. In a 1v1 set-up this is impossible. That's why Blizzard said that balancing is done around 5v5.

They might throw shaman a bone and make them a bit better in 2v2 and 3v3 but that doesn't mean that this will create balance. Now you'll end up with a class that is more "viable" taking the spot of the new less desired class and you'll see the same whining on another class forum.

I'm not saying that shaman is perfectly fine and that all the complaint have no merit. I love playing my shaman and I would be the first to be happy if we get a little buff but I don't think crying on the board will change anything. I also don't expect the game to be perfectly balanced cause it will never happen unless they remove most class abilities and normalize gear and stats.

So you can whine or try to make it work and if you really believe the class is broken beyond repair then just put your money where your mouth is and stop paying Blizzard cause they obviously have no clue what they're doing with their game right?
#25 May 19 2008 at 3:26 PM Rating: Default
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13,048 posts
Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
Taurrus wrote:
Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
We take our shaman advice from shamans...


Exactly man, pretty much every post Theo makes on these forums consists of lording his rogue experience over people, and telling them why they need to learn to play because the class is fine. All of this from an outsider looking-in perspective.


A 1700 rated 5v5 team is nothing to write home about...it doesn't even have a warlock on it.

A 1700 rated 5v5 team that just went 10-1 and got to 1852 as warrior/rogue/feral/hunter/paladin.

We beat a 2020 rated 5v5 team multiple times, as well.

So yeah, I have no clue what I'm talking about. You're totally right.
#26 May 19 2008 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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2,069 posts
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
Taurrus wrote:
Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
We take our shaman advice from shamans...


Exactly man, pretty much every post Theo makes on these forums consists of lording his rogue experience over people, and telling them why they need to learn to play because the class is fine. All of this from an outsider looking-in perspective.


A 1700 rated 5v5 team is nothing to write home about...it doesn't even have a warlock on it.

A 1700 rated 5v5 team that just went 10-1 and got to 1852 as warrior/rogue/feral/hunter/paladin.

We beat a 2020 rated 5v5 team multiple times, as well.

So yeah, I have no clue what I'm talking about. You're totally right.


Seriously...did you not see my warlock comment? I may have been joking. Anyway, grats on your 1852 non-warlock team.
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