- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Sun Eater and now what
Sun Eater and now whatFollow
23 posts
today i was running a heroic and the Sun Eater drops so im wondering as a tank what enchant should i put on my first epic weapon??
Sun Eater isn't even very good for pally tanks, better off with Continuum Blade or that other one with spell dmg and shield block.
If you are using Sun Eater I would definitely suggest putting +40 spell dmg on it, as thats how we build threat and your already going to have low spell dmg not having a spell dmg weapon.
Run Heroic Magister's Terrace and get the Mace off Kael best weapon for us besides Amani Punisher( pre-Hyjal I believe), and even that is barely better than the H Mgt mace
Edited, May 18th 2008 10:47pm by Kuresta
If you are using Sun Eater I would definitely suggest putting +40 spell dmg on it, as thats how we build threat and your already going to have low spell dmg not having a spell dmg weapon.
Run Heroic Magister's Terrace and get the Mace off Kael best weapon for us besides Amani Punisher( pre-Hyjal I believe), and even that is barely better than the H Mgt mace
Edited, May 18th 2008 10:47pm by Kuresta
sun eater gets goose or a chain. use spell dmg for your TPS weapon.
thread jack, Tommy:
when would you actually use a war tanking weap over a spell dmg weapon?
when would you actually use a war tanking weap over a spell dmg weapon?
Kuresta wrote:
thread jack, Tommy:
when would you actually use a war tanking weap over a spell dmg weapon?
when would you actually use a war tanking weap over a spell dmg weapon?
Answer: never.
Congrats on the Sun Eater drop, raisen, but... yeah. For Pally tanks it's a purple that's inferior to several blue spell damage one-handers available pre-heroic and pre-raid. You might as well have picked up a nifty polearm. =/
Suneater is a great weapon to swap in after you already have an incredible threat-lead. In serious raiding that wont really happen -- but in heroics, Kara, and even ZA it's not too difficult to end up with 50k more threat than the next person on the list.
Still -- The Cudgel of Consecration is awesome unless you're clearing ZA or Hyjal often. It's the first epic that's REALLY useful to a Paladin tank.
Still -- The Cudgel of Consecration is awesome unless you're clearing ZA or Hyjal often. It's the first epic that's REALLY useful to a Paladin tank.
Losie wrote:
Suneater is a great weapon to swap in after you already have an incredible threat-lead. In serious raiding that wont really happen -- but in heroics, Kara, and even ZA it's not too difficult to end up with 50k more threat than the next person on the list.
Still -- The Cudgel of Consecration is awesome unless you're clearing ZA or Hyjal often. It's the first epic that's REALLY useful to a Paladin tank.
Still -- The Cudgel of Consecration is awesome unless you're clearing ZA or Hyjal often. It's the first epic that's REALLY useful to a Paladin tank.
This: but then, if you're doing Heroics/Kara/ZA, are you even going to need the extra mitigation from the Suneater? Kind of makes it a moot point.
That Cudgel definitely is awesome. I wish I had it longer cause it looks wicked too, but very shortly after getting it, I got the Hyjal trash mace (which imo looks stupid) =/
Anyway, point is, Warrior tank weapons =/= Paly tank weapons, so sell the Suneater and use the money to buy a Continuum or Crystalforged. Whatever you do though +40 spell damage enchant is the only way to go.
23 posts
the ironic part is i already have the crystalforge sword and the mana wraith my guildies are saying spellsurge considering my over acrive judgeing should get some return well thanks for the advice ill test acouple of things on it and i see anything interesting ill let you knowif it is not what i thought ill stick with the plain looking crystalforged sword
Spellsurge is an absolutely atrocious enchant for a Prot pally. In fact it is so absolutely absurd that I can only make one request, slap them and tell them they need to learn to play.
For a fast caster such as a FoL holy Paladin it works out to 10-13 mp5. You are not casting every 1.5 seconds, so less for you. Is that really going to help you? If you are doing 5 mans the only other person with it would be a healer and 2 people with spellsurge is not enough to justify it. The math doesn't even come close to working out, at all. In a raid if you were in a spellsurge group then there would be a fundamental level of fail so epic, so systemic and flawed from an almost elementary level that you have more problems going on that having a bad enchant on your sword.
Spell damage. You gain your threat per second from spell damage. Pallies differ from Warriors in a multitude of ways and one of the primary ones is that they do not use their weapon to further there avoidance (there are exceptions I know) but rather for threat. It is the same with expertise weapons for warriors later on.
Edited, May 19th 2008 2:24am by bodhisattva
Edited, May 19th 2008 2:25am by bodhisattva
For a fast caster such as a FoL holy Paladin it works out to 10-13 mp5. You are not casting every 1.5 seconds, so less for you. Is that really going to help you? If you are doing 5 mans the only other person with it would be a healer and 2 people with spellsurge is not enough to justify it. The math doesn't even come close to working out, at all. In a raid if you were in a spellsurge group then there would be a fundamental level of fail so epic, so systemic and flawed from an almost elementary level that you have more problems going on that having a bad enchant on your sword.
Spell damage. You gain your threat per second from spell damage. Pallies differ from Warriors in a multitude of ways and one of the primary ones is that they do not use their weapon to further there avoidance (there are exceptions I know) but rather for threat. It is the same with expertise weapons for warriors later on.
Edited, May 19th 2008 2:24am by bodhisattva
Edited, May 19th 2008 2:25am by bodhisattva
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
not gonna even try to figure out what ***** is saying seeing i've been drinking but i'd take a green maace over sun eater for tanking. you can easly make up for the deff **** on other gear than you could make up for the sd from weapon. even go with the light saber from norm sp. off first boss.
Allow me to translate:
Spellsurge bad. Spell damage good.
WTF is your tanking Prot Pally doing in the same group as all your caster/healers with Spellsurge? L2Compose your raid groups.
Warrior +defense weapon bad for Pally tank. Spell damage weapon good for Pally tank.
Umgawa!
bodhisattva, Defender of Justice wrote:
Spellsurge is an absolutely atrocious enchant for a Prot pally. In fact it is so absolutely absurd that I can only make one request, slap them and tell them they need to learn to play.
For a fast caster such as a FoL holy Paladin it works out to 10-13 mp5. You are not casting every 1.5 seconds, so less for you. Is that really going to help you? If you are doing 5 mans the only other person with it would be a healer and 2 people with spellsurge is not enough to justify it. The math doesn't even come close to working out, at all.
For a fast caster such as a FoL holy Paladin it works out to 10-13 mp5. You are not casting every 1.5 seconds, so less for you. Is that really going to help you? If you are doing 5 mans the only other person with it would be a healer and 2 people with spellsurge is not enough to justify it. The math doesn't even come close to working out, at all.
Spellsurge bad. Spell damage good.
Quote:
In a raid if you were in a spellsurge group then there would be a fundamental level of fail so epic, so systemic and flawed from an almost elementary level that you have more problems going on that having a bad enchant on your sword.
WTF is your tanking Prot Pally doing in the same group as all your caster/healers with Spellsurge? L2Compose your raid groups.
Quote:
Spell damage. You gain your threat per second from spell damage. Pallies differ from Warriors in a multitude of ways and one of the primary ones is that they do not use their weapon to further there avoidance (there are exceptions I know) but rather for threat. It is the same with expertise weapons for warriors later on.
Warrior +defense weapon bad for Pally tank. Spell damage weapon good for Pally tank.
Umgawa!
I'm normally holy but a part time prot pally (i.e. I've picked up various scraps of prot gear from my raiding that I thought I'd give it go)
From the various guides (Losie's guide was very helpful), pala's need spl dmg to hold threat as almost all our threat comes from Holy damage.
Sure you can build your spl damage from gear other than your weapon but I would think building spl dmg in a prot build is much like building resistance gear. With a res kit, you want to get as much res in as few items as possible so as not to gimp your other stats.
The weapon gives more spl dmg than any other item than you can get whereas the defensive stats you get from the suneater can be garnered through a multitude of other items.
As for spellsurge, I wouldn't even take this as a holy pala. FoL spamming just isn't enough on higher raids for this to be worthwhile.
From the various guides (Losie's guide was very helpful), pala's need spl dmg to hold threat as almost all our threat comes from Holy damage.
Sure you can build your spl damage from gear other than your weapon but I would think building spl dmg in a prot build is much like building resistance gear. With a res kit, you want to get as much res in as few items as possible so as not to gimp your other stats.
The weapon gives more spl dmg than any other item than you can get whereas the defensive stats you get from the suneater can be garnered through a multitude of other items.
As for spellsurge, I wouldn't even take this as a holy pala. FoL spamming just isn't enough on higher raids for this to be worthwhile.
23 posts
my mistake i meant Battlemaster sorry for the confusion
Quote:
thread jack, Tommy:
when would you actually use a war tanking weap over a spell dmg weapon?
when would you actually use a war tanking weap over a spell dmg weapon?
uh, how bout the Destroyers in H mech or Prince/Nightbane in Kara or using a tank rotation on Void Reaver and he turns to you.
Sun Eater and Kings Defender will get you to 102% easier than Continuum Blade, etc. Threat = 0 when killed by a crushing blow. i would be willing to bet the OP is not close to uncrushable yet. weapon/shield swapping allows you to gain threat but max out avoidance when necessary, learn it.
If he's not uncrushable, he won't/shouldn't be tanking Prince/Nightbane/VR, and Destroyers can't crush, so ... Only time it would benefit is if you are borderline and that is the only thing you need to push you into uncrushability, but even then, there's a better way to do it then lose a ton of your threat.
Going to go with Gaudion's answer: never.
Going to go with Gaudion's answer: never.
My understanding was that you reach uncrushable through gear, not your weapon. The weapon is for spell damage.
If you sacrifice all your spell damage on your weapon for dodge and defense, then how do you hold threat? In those cases, wouldn't you have to build spell damage from gear? That seems to be an inefficient way to build spell damage since you would lose more avoidance stats than the Sun Eater could give you.
Edited, May 19th 2008 9:12am by YJMark
If you sacrifice all your spell damage on your weapon for dodge and defense, then how do you hold threat? In those cases, wouldn't you have to build spell damage from gear? That seems to be an inefficient way to build spell damage since you would lose more avoidance stats than the Sun Eater could give you.
Edited, May 19th 2008 9:12am by YJMark
raisentheblade wrote:
my mistake i meant Battlemaster sorry for the confusion
Which is worse.
So please review my above post and then multiply it by ten.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
I really don't understand why you would use the SunEater whatever the enchant. If it is to push you towards uncrushability, Losie's guide (now stickied) gives a multitude of different gear to get you there so there really is no excuse to rely on a wartard poker. You are giving up waaaay too much spl dmg for this to be even a consideration.
/agree with Maulgak
You shouldn't be raiding without being uncrushable(with a spell dmg weapon equipped), + putting on a war weap for raiding would hurt your tps so much you'd probably run into trouble holding threat, then what kind of tank are you...
You shouldn't be raiding without being uncrushable(with a spell dmg weapon equipped), + putting on a war weap for raiding would hurt your tps so much you'd probably run into trouble holding threat, then what kind of tank are you...
Quote:
what kind of tank are you...
If I was grouped with a palatank with a warrior weapon....
/laugh
/facepalm
/leave party
Quote:
Sun Eater and Kings Defender will get you to 102% easier than Continuum Blade, etc. Threat = 0 when killed by a crushing blow.
2 Replies to this...
1: Full Avoidance = 100% when threat = 0 because you aren't holding aggro in the first place with your non-spell damage weapon.
2: People still use the continuum blade? Go do the Isle of Quel'danas for an hour, come back, and buy a Crystalforge Blade. Spell damage AND avoidance.
It is just a matter of understanding Prot.
As much as uncrushable is needed doing so at the expense of your most potent threat generating piece of gear is shooting yourself in the foot. There are many other improvements you could get through badges, heroics or even the first couple bosses of Kara where crush immunity is not really needed.
Using Suneater, Kings Defender, or even the Lurker mace or any other Tanking weapon meant for Prot Warriors is an inarguable bad move for prot pallies.
Sometimes blues are better than epics, scary thought but it is true at that level. Either keep using your Crystalforge or save Arena Points for s2/s3 mace. You are not going to see a better mace until the Amani Punisher out of ZA or until Hyjal for a prot pally.
As much as uncrushable is needed doing so at the expense of your most potent threat generating piece of gear is shooting yourself in the foot. There are many other improvements you could get through badges, heroics or even the first couple bosses of Kara where crush immunity is not really needed.
Using Suneater, Kings Defender, or even the Lurker mace or any other Tanking weapon meant for Prot Warriors is an inarguable bad move for prot pallies.
Sometimes blues are better than epics, scary thought but it is true at that level. Either keep using your Crystalforge or save Arena Points for s2/s3 mace. You are not going to see a better mace until the Amani Punisher out of ZA or until Hyjal for a prot pally.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Aside from situations where you already have a vast threat lead (which again, in a proper raid with a proper group likely won't be happening often) there are other situations where an avoidence weapon isn't "ZOMG AWEFUL".
ZA bosses for example. We're not even talking about crushing blows here, ignore those entirely. There are bosses, such as in ZA, that will cleave the MT and OT at the same time and split the damage evenly between the two of them as long as they stay stacked ontop of eachother. If you don't split the damage with an OT, your MT will get 1-shot most of the time.
If the OT Dodges, Parries, or is missed -- they won't take damage but the MT will STILL only take 1/2 of the total damage. Threat isn't a huge crazy issue as the cleave is directed at the closest person to the MT within a certain range and not #2 on the threat-list (though you should still be keeping threat up). Not to mention, the cleave is ENTIRELY predictable, so you can swap your weapon just prior to it and swap back in a little bit for threat on a weapon rotation.
But seriously.. is it needed? No -- Is a Spell Damage weapon needed? YES!
ZA bosses for example. We're not even talking about crushing blows here, ignore those entirely. There are bosses, such as in ZA, that will cleave the MT and OT at the same time and split the damage evenly between the two of them as long as they stay stacked ontop of eachother. If you don't split the damage with an OT, your MT will get 1-shot most of the time.
If the OT Dodges, Parries, or is missed -- they won't take damage but the MT will STILL only take 1/2 of the total damage. Threat isn't a huge crazy issue as the cleave is directed at the closest person to the MT within a certain range and not #2 on the threat-list (though you should still be keeping threat up). Not to mention, the cleave is ENTIRELY predictable, so you can swap your weapon just prior to it and swap back in a little bit for threat on a weapon rotation.
But seriously.. is it needed? No -- Is a Spell Damage weapon needed? YES!
phase 2 Prince. my threat is though the roof after laying +450 spell dmg for 40% of the fight and dps has dropped their own aggro. why would i continue stacking the threat rather than switching weapons for the increased avoidance?
keep in mind it only takes a half a second to be crushed when you miss a Holy Shield click. plus i'd rather dodge a phase 2 hit than block a portion of it.
keep in mind it only takes a half a second to be crushed when you miss a Holy Shield click. plus i'd rather dodge a phase 2 hit than block a portion of it.
OT: while talking max avoidance- i'm trying to find an enchanter with [Enchant Shield - Shield Block]. i figure it will replace 2 +8 def gems and make room for 2 solid elunes(+24 stam) rather than the standard +18 stam to shield. however, i cant find anyone on my realm with the formula after spamming trade for a week.
anyone have any experience using this?
anyone have any experience using this?
tommyguns wrote:
phase 2 Prince. my threat is though the roof after laying +450 spell dmg for 40% of the fight and dps has dropped their own aggro. why would i continue stacking the threat rather than switching weapons for the increased avoidance?
keep in mind it only takes a half a second to be crushed when you miss a Holy Shield click. plus i'd rather dodge a phase 2 hit than block a portion of it.
keep in mind it only takes a half a second to be crushed when you miss a Holy Shield click. plus i'd rather dodge a phase 2 hit than block a portion of it.
1) Because phase 2 is when the DPS really pours on the damage! Even dumping their aggro right before the phase switch, it is still feasible that the DPS will pump out enough damage to catch back up in threat, depending on their gear relative to yours of course. That's the most dangerous phase of the fight for the tank, and you want to push through it as quickly as possible. If you slack off your threat that's only hindering the progression of the fight, not extending your chances of a kill.
2) I'm sure anyone would rather dodge a blow then block a few hundred damage off a hit, but is the small amount of avoidance granted really worth dropping about 1/3 to 1/2 of your spell damage during the most threat/DPS intensive phase of the fight?
Recent Visitors: 171
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (171)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Sun Eater and now what
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC