Ok, so we've all heard of the SL/SL build. We all love the SL/SL build.
But I can' pvp all day every day, and I really don't like dropping 50g twice a day if someone gets an instance group going. I was looking for some middle ground and I came up with this one. I'm gonna do what I feel like anyway, but for the hell of it, I thought I'd post it to see what you think: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=IVMbZbxhzIiz0xoZxx0tr0z
Ok, it could definitely use some tweaking. Some of it is personal preference for me, but here's the rundown:
Afflic:
I can't live without insta-cast corruption. Improved lifetap is a no brainer. I don't get why more people don't praise the improved drain soul. For solo dailies especially, getting back 1.2k mana every kill saves a lot of water and makes me a little more likely to shadowburn without having to be sure the mob is going to die in 5 seconds.
Demo:
demonic embrace is a no brainer, but i'm sure the improved voidwalker will be more controversial. I use it for the improved sacrifice. Combined with fel domination, master summoner and VW trinket, that's 11100 pts of immunity in an emergency. 11100 uninterruptable points of life draining, howl of terroring, SB burning fun. The rest in the tree speak for themselves, excpet for demonic aegis. i threw them in there because i couldn't think of anyhthing else in that tree worth getting to open up soul-=link.
Destro:
Your basic "...and ruin" destro build. It's not so much for raid-focused damage or anything, but it allows you to not be completely useless in an instance/group situation. It's not terrible in pvp either when someone with low hps is beating on you and it's 70% easier to drop a bolt or two, not to mention shadowburn.
The downsides:
Ok, you lose the other SL, siphon life. I've never really been sold on siphon life. I suppose it's worth it if you manage to get it off on 8 or 9 people in a BG but that's getting the attention of 8 or 9 people, too. One on one, it just not strong enough.
You also don't get curse of exaustion. Ok, this one sucks, but you gotta make sacrifices.
Overall, I like it, at least for where my character's at. I think if I was full-time raiding right now I'd want to put more into destro but while i'm still bouncing around to whatever I need to do I like the overall effectiveness of this one. It's good for solo, duo with a healer, 5-mans and not completely useless anywhere.
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SL/ruin?Follow
If you really want a PvP/PvE build then Felguard Demonology or Deep Affliction is the way to go. I think it's fair to say that Felguard would be better than that at both PvP and PvE, and Affliction would be slightly behind for PvP.
Almost every fancy-pants hybrid build isn't viable at all, you lose loads by not taking 41-point-talents in most cases and your build has to be very specialized to make up for it.
Hence 0/21/40, a kinda-hybrid build without Shadowfury, is immensely useful in raids but crap in PvP. SL/SL is the toughest PvP Warlock build around but is useless in raids. Felguard and Affliction are both PvE/PvP builds if made right and are powerful in both.
Almost every fancy-pants hybrid build isn't viable at all, you lose loads by not taking 41-point-talents in most cases and your build has to be very specialized to make up for it.
Hence 0/21/40, a kinda-hybrid build without Shadowfury, is immensely useful in raids but crap in PvP. SL/SL is the toughest PvP Warlock build around but is useless in raids. Felguard and Affliction are both PvE/PvP builds if made right and are powerful in both.
Scholar
46 posts
I use the same thing though less ruin at the moment because I am level 66. The voidwalker is awesome. People don't expect you to bubble and while bubbled they are thinking wtf is he a paladin... should I attack, should I wait for bubble to wear off? They don't know. It is a connundrum! :P
In BG, I always sacriface bubble the VW. It is like extending my HP by 4k.
Plus, not sure how this works, but with master demonologist we have a 10% damage reduction with big blue out and with soul link we have 20%. Do the two skills stack with one another that is I have 30% damage mitigation or is it one of those crappy 20% + 20%*10% = 22% things.
I have demonic knowledge and don't have drain soul so I can't wait to see my ZOMG crits with ruin at 70.
In BG, I always sacriface bubble the VW. It is like extending my HP by 4k.
Plus, not sure how this works, but with master demonologist we have a 10% damage reduction with big blue out and with soul link we have 20%. Do the two skills stack with one another that is I have 30% damage mitigation or is it one of those crappy 20% + 20%*10% = 22% things.
I have demonic knowledge and don't have drain soul so I can't wait to see my ZOMG crits with ruin at 70.
I actually just made a similar build for my own lock. He's sorta been decommissioned as of late, so I don't plan on Raiding but SL/SL is just so bad for Grind and 5-Mans and the aspect of living forever while doing reduced damage just isn't that appealing.
I have a similar setup as you, except I'm 0'd out in Affliction, using more points into Demonology.
I too have improved Blueberry, for the exact same emergency situation as you use him. I don't generally like using him for grinds though, unless I'm doing solo AEing.
The build opens up so many options for so many situations, it really helps a lot.
Easy Grinds I DSac VW, get a constant flow of hp back that I can use for Lifetapping - I do damage with SBolts. Harder targets I can leave him out for the SL portion, as well as the 10% physical. PVP I can use Felpup for SL and for the resists, or use the Succy for 10% damage and Seduce. For 5-man groups I can use Succubus out or Succubus sacced, depending on how well I know the healer, and for special situations I've already used the VW multiple times, as well as Felpup once (Second Boss in MGT for resists when on Add Control.)
I miss the logistical advantages of Affliction spells like CoEx tremendously, as well as IHoT for an OShi button, but the damage I do using Demon + Destro is easily compairable to DoTRot with affliction (better, and in higher bursts so it's harder to gauge heals.)
I'm not currently in any Arenas other than a 2v2, so this works great for there. If I was in a truely good 3v3 or 5v5 I may be tempted to switch to an SL/SL or UA build as it seems it would be more advantageous to the team as a whole.
I have a similar setup as you, except I'm 0'd out in Affliction, using more points into Demonology.
I too have improved Blueberry, for the exact same emergency situation as you use him. I don't generally like using him for grinds though, unless I'm doing solo AEing.
The build opens up so many options for so many situations, it really helps a lot.
Easy Grinds I DSac VW, get a constant flow of hp back that I can use for Lifetapping - I do damage with SBolts. Harder targets I can leave him out for the SL portion, as well as the 10% physical. PVP I can use Felpup for SL and for the resists, or use the Succy for 10% damage and Seduce. For 5-man groups I can use Succubus out or Succubus sacced, depending on how well I know the healer, and for special situations I've already used the VW multiple times, as well as Felpup once (Second Boss in MGT for resists when on Add Control.)
I miss the logistical advantages of Affliction spells like CoEx tremendously, as well as IHoT for an OShi button, but the damage I do using Demon + Destro is easily compairable to DoTRot with affliction (better, and in higher bursts so it's harder to gauge heals.)
I'm not currently in any Arenas other than a 2v2, so this works great for there. If I was in a truely good 3v3 or 5v5 I may be tempted to switch to an SL/SL or UA build as it seems it would be more advantageous to the team as a whole.
For those of you doing this just to get ruin, what is your Crit%?
If your crit is high enough, and it works for you, great. I guess keep it, but you'll always be outdone by a specialized lock.
I recently decided to try to felguard raiding build, and let me tell you, my DPS took a huge jump over Affliction. I have Soul Link, and I get my choice of pets for PvP, including the Felguard, whose intercepts and damage do great. Without Ruin, I get crits at about 5k with this build, and regular SBs hit around 2500.
Ruin is a great talent, if your a destro raiding lock. If your just soloing, doing 5-mans, and PvP, there are better choices out there than Ruin IMO. If you remove Ruin from your build, you can do one of two things.
1. Get very powerful Drains with Soul Siphon and Fel Concentration. Seriously, when you can just DoT someone up, and Drain Life them for more than they can DPS you for, who really cares about a VW Bubble? Plus you can take nightfall, I love this talent, miss it so much.
2. You can get the Felguard.
Demonic Knowledge=More Spell Damage
Demonic Tactics=More survivability
Demonic Tactics=More Crit%
and you still have your choice of pets for whatever your doing.
personally, these options, or a full on Drain Tankers Affliction build would give your more tricks and more damage then your hybrid build, and is the reason why most locks don't use the hybrid builds. There is one I think that is semi-ok , it is discussed here
Just my thoughts.
If your crit is high enough, and it works for you, great. I guess keep it, but you'll always be outdone by a specialized lock.
I recently decided to try to felguard raiding build, and let me tell you, my DPS took a huge jump over Affliction. I have Soul Link, and I get my choice of pets for PvP, including the Felguard, whose intercepts and damage do great. Without Ruin, I get crits at about 5k with this build, and regular SBs hit around 2500.
Ruin is a great talent, if your a destro raiding lock. If your just soloing, doing 5-mans, and PvP, there are better choices out there than Ruin IMO. If you remove Ruin from your build, you can do one of two things.
1. Get very powerful Drains with Soul Siphon and Fel Concentration. Seriously, when you can just DoT someone up, and Drain Life them for more than they can DPS you for, who really cares about a VW Bubble? Plus you can take nightfall, I love this talent, miss it so much.
2. You can get the Felguard.
Demonic Knowledge=More Spell Damage
Demonic Tactics=More survivability
Demonic Tactics=More Crit%
and you still have your choice of pets for whatever your doing.
personally, these options, or a full on Drain Tankers Affliction build would give your more tricks and more damage then your hybrid build, and is the reason why most locks don't use the hybrid builds. There is one I think that is semi-ok , it is discussed here
Just my thoughts.
Scholar
23 posts
ecirphsoj wrote:
If you really want a PvP/PvE build then Felguard Demonology or Deep Affliction is the way to go. I think it's fair to say that Felguard would be better than that at both PvP and PvE, and Affliction would be slightly behind for PvP.
Almost every fancy-pants hybrid build isn't viable at all, you lose loads by not taking 41-point-talents in most cases and your build has to be very specialized to make up for it.
Hence 0/21/40, a kinda-hybrid build without Shadowfury, is immensely useful in raids but crap in PvP. SL/SL is the toughest PvP Warlock build around but is useless in raids. Felguard and Affliction are both PvE/PvP builds if made right and are powerful in both.
Almost every fancy-pants hybrid build isn't viable at all, you lose loads by not taking 41-point-talents in most cases and your build has to be very specialized to make up for it.
Hence 0/21/40, a kinda-hybrid build without Shadowfury, is immensely useful in raids but crap in PvP. SL/SL is the toughest PvP Warlock build around but is useless in raids. Felguard and Affliction are both PvE/PvP builds if made right and are powerful in both.
ok, you can call it fancypants if you want but it's really not that different. Only difference between this spec and a full demo/destro is the 9 points in afflic. I put those points in after getting what I thought was worth getting in each of the other two. I leveled full afflic so I wanted to try something different.
You say that not going to 41 in a particular line is a bad thing, but I'm having a hard time understanding that. At the point I'm at currently, absolutely none of the 41st point abilities would be of any use to me. Felguard is useless in every way for me. I'll always have one of the other pets out depending on the situation for one or more of the utilities. I wouldn't use unstable affliction very often in BG's because if I have to stop and cast I may was well drop a shadow bolt.
To the poster who brought up the crit % issue, you have a point, but the only reason I went with that build was for the abilities before ruin. AT that point, regardless of crit%, it seemed like a no brainer to throw in one more point.
Mainly what I'm looking for is opinion on what to do with those 9 points in afflic. Are the abilities beyond soul link worth not having insta-cast corruption and mana recorvery abilities? How about the abilities beyond ruin?
So far, since switching from afflic, my single-target dps has gone up by about a flat 200 while my hps went from about 8k to almost 10k (not to mention the 20% from soul link) without upgrading my gear. 3-4 target dps hasn't really suffered much either. If I get more, I'll SoC.
IMO, you don't need the mana regen from Imp Drain Soul with Life Tap and Drain Life. I love Imp Corr and would never recommend giving it up unless you use a Destro Raiding Build. Imp Life Tap is great also.
If you Lose the point in Imp Drain Soul, and either 1 point from Life Tap or your point in Ruin, you could get 3/3 in either Demonic Resilience or Demonic Knowledge.
Demonic Knowledge gets the most mileage out of a Felguard build including Fel Stamina and Fel Intellect. The Damage increase from having the Felguard out at that point is amazing. He's also a great pet, good damage, intercept, a taunt and cleave for helping hold multiple enemies better than blueberry. IMO, if your gonna go that deep in Demo, and are not going SL/SL, may as well get him. He is a great pet, increases your damage by alot, and deals a good amount himself. If your really that against him though, I'd still lose Imp Drain Soul and one point in Life Tap to get Demonic Resilience or Demonic Knowledge.
If you Lose the point in Imp Drain Soul, and either 1 point from Life Tap or your point in Ruin, you could get 3/3 in either Demonic Resilience or Demonic Knowledge.
Demonic Knowledge gets the most mileage out of a Felguard build including Fel Stamina and Fel Intellect. The Damage increase from having the Felguard out at that point is amazing. He's also a great pet, good damage, intercept, a taunt and cleave for helping hold multiple enemies better than blueberry. IMO, if your gonna go that deep in Demo, and are not going SL/SL, may as well get him. He is a great pet, increases your damage by alot, and deals a good amount himself. If your really that against him though, I'd still lose Imp Drain Soul and one point in Life Tap to get Demonic Resilience or Demonic Knowledge.
Sl/Ruin has its place in pvp, mainly in double dps 2v2/3 dps 3v3 and 4 dps 5v5. It's a different playstyle, though definately an enjoyable one.
Scholar
23 posts
thanks lathais, that's what i'm looking for. I will consider dropping the imp drain soul. It's usefull in pve farming but does nothing in pvp. The problem i have with the felguard is that while on paper it looke like an overall better pet for a lot of things, in each individual role it would play, using the specific pet for that job should do about the same job but come with some other essential ability, ie felpup's paranoia and spell lock, succy's seduce and blueberry's bubble.
ANyway, I jsut tried it out in AB for the daily and ended up 3rd in damage and second in KB's as a blue/green mostly quest geared new 70. Just hit 10k hps by upgrading just my cloak, too. Only thing I REALLY miss is imp howl of terror.
ANyway, I jsut tried it out in AB for the daily and ended up 3rd in damage and second in KB's as a blue/green mostly quest geared new 70. Just hit 10k hps by upgrading just my cloak, too. Only thing I REALLY miss is imp howl of terror.
Concerning the Felguard... in Organized PVP I'll either be using Felpup versus caster heavy or much less likely a Voidwalker. They both offer a great deal of mitigation in their own ways, and both have skills that match the needs of specific enemies.
In 5-mans I'll be using Succubus for the 10% damage + her Melee/CC or SucSac for 15% Shadow depending on the situation.
I don't see how posting up 1/2 damage + 1/2 resistances is going to help, especially with Felguard skillset - what's the target enemy here? Yes, felguard bridges the gap between PVP/PVE and makes an arguably decent pet in low-end 70 Bracket, but I find it to be not even at a "nuisance" level versus any good PVP player.
As for the Crit% brought up, as I said my builds slightly different than Obscurefrens', as I have Demonic Tactics to help boost the crit even further. I'm currently considering switching talents around, however, as I'm finding Searing pain to be a rather nasty little spell in close-combat PVP, far more useful than the terribly slow SBolt, and with an additional 10% to crit via Talents it may be worth something.
I'm by no means done with my build, nor am I defending it's viability or strength, I'm just intending to show you my thought process here.
In 5-mans I'll be using Succubus for the 10% damage + her Melee/CC or SucSac for 15% Shadow depending on the situation.
I don't see how posting up 1/2 damage + 1/2 resistances is going to help, especially with Felguard skillset - what's the target enemy here? Yes, felguard bridges the gap between PVP/PVE and makes an arguably decent pet in low-end 70 Bracket, but I find it to be not even at a "nuisance" level versus any good PVP player.
As for the Crit% brought up, as I said my builds slightly different than Obscurefrens', as I have Demonic Tactics to help boost the crit even further. I'm currently considering switching talents around, however, as I'm finding Searing pain to be a rather nasty little spell in close-combat PVP, far more useful than the terribly slow SBolt, and with an additional 10% to crit via Talents it may be worth something.
I'm by no means done with my build, nor am I defending it's viability or strength, I'm just intending to show you my thought process here.
5 posts
*So, longtime listener, first time caller. Hi everyone.* I'm still on the noobish side, this being my first toon and only lvl 40 or so. That said, I do have the advantage of not being brainwashed (for better or worse) by popular sentiment.
I actually think this is a really creative and legit build. For starters, I dont know how people live without improved life tap. I'm an Affliction lock, and I still get annoyed by how weak it is and how many times i have to use it in a row. I'm guessing people just spend a lot of time with their butts on the ground and don't notice anymore. Corruption is worthless without the instant cast, I'm thinking another Dot would be a good idea. The main point that needs to be made is that you seem to expect to sac the void and shoot a soulburn, in which case imp drain soul is not only giving you free mana, but allowing you to throw out voids left and right and sac them without fear.
Two things my noobutt thinks you need to ask though:
1) Is Intensity really gonna help when you're throwing a few dots and summoning? I dont know which spells destro locks rely on, but it seems like immolate/shadowfury/immolate tweaks. Make sure its worth those points, of course I donno where else they would go.
2)What good is unholy power gonna do if you're just gonna sac the void anyways? I haven't rolled demo, but i cant imagine a scenario where VW's gonna be a source of real damage. Like you said, the pets have specific roles, and the bubbleberry's is to pull aggro and get sac'd.
I'm down with drain soul, but like you said it'll be worthless in Pvp, but maybe its worth the 2 points for what they do in every other circumstance. This build= lotsa life, more life, very little downtime.
I actually think this is a really creative and legit build. For starters, I dont know how people live without improved life tap. I'm an Affliction lock, and I still get annoyed by how weak it is and how many times i have to use it in a row. I'm guessing people just spend a lot of time with their butts on the ground and don't notice anymore. Corruption is worthless without the instant cast, I'm thinking another Dot would be a good idea. The main point that needs to be made is that you seem to expect to sac the void and shoot a soulburn, in which case imp drain soul is not only giving you free mana, but allowing you to throw out voids left and right and sac them without fear.
Two things my noobutt thinks you need to ask though:
1) Is Intensity really gonna help when you're throwing a few dots and summoning? I dont know which spells destro locks rely on, but it seems like immolate/shadowfury/immolate tweaks. Make sure its worth those points, of course I donno where else they would go.
2)What good is unholy power gonna do if you're just gonna sac the void anyways? I haven't rolled demo, but i cant imagine a scenario where VW's gonna be a source of real damage. Like you said, the pets have specific roles, and the bubbleberry's is to pull aggro and get sac'd.
I'm down with drain soul, but like you said it'll be worthless in Pvp, but maybe its worth the 2 points for what they do in every other circumstance. This build= lotsa life, more life, very little downtime.
If your going far enough into Demo to get Unholy Power you are Not going to be sacrificing a pet, Voidwalker to tank threw your DoTs, Felguard to hold aggro/massive DPS.
my 2s and 3s partner is a 0/40/21 SL/ruin lock and he is a huge change from my previous partner for 2s who was a sl/sl.
even though he doesnt have sl, his crits are destructive. he will burn instant cooldowns and crit for 7k, and while this doesnt happen often, it is total hax when it does and can help immensely. Him and myself (a rogue) arent geared very well so the extra damage helps make up for what we are missing.
personally i like having it as a partner.
even though he doesnt have sl, his crits are destructive. he will burn instant cooldowns and crit for 7k, and while this doesnt happen often, it is total hax when it does and can help immensely. Him and myself (a rogue) arent geared very well so the extra damage helps make up for what we are missing.
personally i like having it as a partner.
Scholar
23 posts
Claritizzle wrote:
*So, longtime listener, first time caller. Hi everyone.* I'm still on the noobish side, this being my first toon and only lvl 40 or so. That said, I do have the advantage of not being brainwashed (for better or worse) by popular sentiment.
I actually think this is a really creative and legit build. For starters, I dont know how people live without improved life tap. I'm an Affliction lock, and I still get annoyed by how weak it is and how many times i have to use it in a row. I'm guessing people just spend a lot of time with their butts on the ground and don't notice anymore. Corruption is worthless without the instant cast, I'm thinking another Dot would be a good idea. The main point that needs to be made is that you seem to expect to sac the void and shoot a soulburn, in which case imp drain soul is not only giving you free mana, but allowing you to throw out voids left and right and sac them without fear.
Two things my noobutt thinks you need to ask though:
1) Is Intensity really gonna help when you're throwing a few dots and summoning? I dont know which spells destro locks rely on, but it seems like immolate/shadowfury/immolate tweaks. Make sure its worth those points, of course I donno where else they would go.
2)What good is unholy power gonna do if you're just gonna sac the void anyways? I haven't rolled demo, but i cant imagine a scenario where VW's gonna be a source of real damage. Like you said, the pets have specific roles, and the bubbleberry's is to pull aggro and get sac'd.
I'm down with drain soul, but like you said it'll be worthless in Pvp, but maybe its worth the 2 points for what they do in every other circumstance. This build= lotsa life, more life, very little downtime.
I actually think this is a really creative and legit build. For starters, I dont know how people live without improved life tap. I'm an Affliction lock, and I still get annoyed by how weak it is and how many times i have to use it in a row. I'm guessing people just spend a lot of time with their butts on the ground and don't notice anymore. Corruption is worthless without the instant cast, I'm thinking another Dot would be a good idea. The main point that needs to be made is that you seem to expect to sac the void and shoot a soulburn, in which case imp drain soul is not only giving you free mana, but allowing you to throw out voids left and right and sac them without fear.
Two things my noobutt thinks you need to ask though:
1) Is Intensity really gonna help when you're throwing a few dots and summoning? I dont know which spells destro locks rely on, but it seems like immolate/shadowfury/immolate tweaks. Make sure its worth those points, of course I donno where else they would go.
2)What good is unholy power gonna do if you're just gonna sac the void anyways? I haven't rolled demo, but i cant imagine a scenario where VW's gonna be a source of real damage. Like you said, the pets have specific roles, and the bubbleberry's is to pull aggro and get sac'd.
I'm down with drain soul, but like you said it'll be worthless in Pvp, but maybe its worth the 2 points for what they do in every other circumstance. This build= lotsa life, more life, very little downtime.
1) I intended intesity for the interruptions on SB. It was particularly for PvE but it's been surprisingly nice for PvP as well. In PvE I would send succubus, hit insta-dots and drop 1-3 SB's depending on the target's HP's, then hit drain soul a split second before the last bolt hits so i get the mana back for those bolts and sometimes then some. In PvP it's nice, too, because sometimes it's worth it to burn down your enemy mage style rather than take defensive action. Intensity makes that a little easier to take the hits and drop bombs without constantly being interrupted.
2)unholy power is mostly useless with the "bubbleberry" :) but it's nice whenever I have any pet out that does damage. Succubi while doing dailies comes to mind. It's also on the way to soul link which is kind of a key point of the build.
imo if you want pvp/pve viablility without having to respec, something alone the lines of 41/0/20 (ua/something/shadowburn) is the way to go. it provides good pvp viability due to iHoT, CoEx Siphon Life and fel concentration as well as almost all of the pve viability of the pve equivilant of the spec.
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