I read this thread and i believe is amazing.Never though of that.Now i understand why Aethien consists that shootin while we run we solved our pvp problems.
just read it.http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=3641884957&sid=1
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Best pvp hunter thread i ever read.imoFollow
good read with some good suggestions, many of which we've brought up here.
Yeah, its nice, but I've never experienced hunter being THAT bad in PVP. But then again, I don't do arena at such a high level.
Sounds like the OP's whole operating premise is based upon the inherent dichotomy:
PvE: HUNTER attacks TARGET, TARGET attacks PET
PvP: HUNTER attacks TARGET, TARGET attacks HUNTER
A warlock is set up to PvE identically, yet they are one of the (if not the) most dominant PvP classes. The primary difference? Lack of dead-zone and the fact that so much of their dmg is done with insta-cast DoTs. (hmmm...and fear, actually, which is pretty huge)
Dead-zone has been largely removed, has it not?
I dunno. I'm not saying hunters don't need some tweaking, but I'm not sure this guy is really on the right track.
edit: punctuation and fear omission
Edited, May 15th 2008 5:18pm by AynLoD
PvE: HUNTER attacks TARGET, TARGET attacks PET
PvP: HUNTER attacks TARGET, TARGET attacks HUNTER
A warlock is set up to PvE identically, yet they are one of the (if not the) most dominant PvP classes. The primary difference? Lack of dead-zone and the fact that so much of their dmg is done with insta-cast DoTs. (hmmm...and fear, actually, which is pretty huge)
Dead-zone has been largely removed, has it not?
I dunno. I'm not saying hunters don't need some tweaking, but I'm not sure this guy is really on the right track.
edit: punctuation and fear omission
Edited, May 15th 2008 5:18pm by AynLoD
Regardless if he is or not on the right track,it is a different thread.
Not a whine thread "nerfed all the others class that can win me" but more an inner thoughts of the real problems of hunters.
As for Locks your statement its true.But as you know the pvp Locks are SL Locks that use pet for debuffs and not as tank to take aggro.So If we also had a pet for our debuffs like :moving impairing effects,show hidden etc we would as good as Locks i think.
Edited, May 16th 2008 5:26am by dorogodess
Edited, May 16th 2008 5:26am by dorogodess
Not a whine thread "nerfed all the others class that can win me" but more an inner thoughts of the real problems of hunters.
As for Locks your statement its true.But as you know the pvp Locks are SL Locks that use pet for debuffs and not as tank to take aggro.So If we also had a pet for our debuffs like :moving impairing effects,show hidden etc we would as good as Locks i think.
Edited, May 16th 2008 5:26am by dorogodess
Edited, May 16th 2008 5:26am by dorogodess
AynLoD wrote:
A warlock is set up to PvE identically, yet they are one of the (if not the) most dominant PvP classes. The primary difference? Lack of dead-zone and the fact that so much of their dmg is done with insta-cast DoTs. (hmmm...and fear, actually, which is pretty huge)
Dead-zone has been largely removed, has it not?
Many Warlocks only play "Hunterlock" until level about level 40- especially on PvP servers. on PvP servers, it's actually MUCH safer and easier to tank a mob yourself, and use an Imp + Dark Pact to restore mana. When warlocks use Void Walkers to tank, they have to restore mana with life tap, because Void Walkers have very little mana that they need to use to taunt, and they don't regen it fast enough to use as a mana battery. Freshly Lifetapped Warlock = easy kill.
Warlocks also get several life-draining spells/Talents. Drain Life, Siphon Life and Death Coil.
Although Warlocks CAN be played like hunters, the biggest differences lie in the facts that
1. They do not lose all of their damaging abilities while moving.
2. They do not lose the ability to do full DPS at point blank.
3. They have the ability to fear away enemy players, making them unable to control their movements for several seconds, and creating space between the warlock and a melee player.
Lol when S4 come out, you know ayrianna that you should change your signature to plural..axes not axe..xe xe
But i think better if you dont, cause still S3 2s-hand axe would be better from the 2 1s-hand axes..
But i think better if you dont, cause still S3 2s-hand axe would be better from the 2 1s-hand axes..
Quote:
Dead-zone has been largely removed, has it not?
It's more then just about having our dead-zone removed. Our sole damage is our ranged weapons. You don't see a Warrior trying to gun down a mage when he suddenly blinks do you? Or a mage pulling out his dagger and stabbing some one the second they get into melee range?
Granted we can do a lot of damage with our new S3 Axe while in melee, but our damage is limited to auto-attack and one ability, Raptor Strike which only adds additional damage to your next auto-attack. Wing-Clip is our snare, Mongoose is dodge based, and Counter-Strike is Parry based not to mention only available to SV hunters. Deterrence is great, if you're up against a rogue or a warrior for all of 10 seconds. Against a caster who just puts himself in your face, there isn't much that deterrence is going to do against them.
The main thing this guy is pointing out in his post is our lack of participation in arena's. We are awesome DPS in the PVE world, no doubt. In a typical Battleground or a 1v1 fight we can hold our own as well. However the arena is where we are just decimated.
Now everyone has Line of Sight Issues. But not everyone has the ranged issue where if a person gets within melee range, your damage just got shot down to 1/2 to 1/4th of what you normally do. Rogues, Warriors, Enh Shamans, and Feral Druids all keep their sustained 100% damage in melee range. As do all casters. Hunters are literally the only class to deal 50-75% less damage when confronted in melee. It is our weak spot and greater then any other class within an arena setting.
Now I'm not saying that casters don't have problems when melee gets in their faces, they do. But let's face facts, a warlock can still dot you up while taking heavy damage from a warrior. A hunter can sit there, try to wing-clip the warrior and get back to ranged combat, assuming the warrior wasn't smart enough to hamstring the hunter. Scatter Shot/Intimidation works for all of 3 seconds, and a trap won't last long with diminishing returns not to mention our cooldowns for traps is 30 seconds (typically). I could go on, but back to the point.
Arena's themselves are very situational for a hunter. A typical 2v2 fight, hunters do alright. Higher rated 3v3 the other team will typically CC your healer, and beat down the hunter while the other DPS tries to do what they can to keep them A) either off the hunter or B) stop the healer from getting CC'd. And if you want to know what a 5v5 is like, go find a hunter with a high rating and ask how much he likes being the center of attention with the typical 3-4 DPSers on top of them.
Personally speaking, I gave up on arena's with my hunter. At the higher rated levels I found myself constantly picked out to be killed first. It didn't matter what spec I was, if they saw a hunter in a 3v3 or a 5v5 group I was almost always picked first to die.
Just ask yourself, would you rather be shot by a hunter or melee'd? Answer that question truthfully and you'll see our problem in arena's.
In my opinion, Hunters are just fine PvP wise. I'm not a PvP god, I can't break 1850 blah blah blah. I still think Hunters are fine. Don't get me wrong, if Hunters do get buffed I'd like it. (Instant kill shot Blizzard, gogo!) I just don't think we need a buff.
You can show me figures about how Hunters are under-represented in X bracket, how a majority of Hunters in X bracket are sub 1500, etc. But frankly, it all comes down to the skill of the player, not the class itself.
Our learning curve is much steeper. I know Hunters (Not me, lawl) who tear sh*t up, simply because they know how to take advantage of their class' traits. These Hunters I know aren't average, nor are they above average. These people are stellar individuals. I've also seen Hunters, in 4/5 Season 3, Merciless bow, and full vindicators struggle to break 1200. (That's the bracket my prot Pally sits at >.>) And considering that I play arenas as prot, there is no "Class/Team makup" advantage there. Simply put, these Hunters are horrible.
And it's the same for every class. Each class has their learning curve, some steeper than others. Ironically, Hunters also have a rather large population. What does this mean? Well it skews the statistics in favor of the disadvantaged, or the sub-average.
Normally, the skill level of Hunters would be distributed along an "n" shaped curve. There'd be a handful of absolutely terribad Hunters, a majority of average ones, and a handful of stellar ones. But because of the steep learning curve, instead of the "hump" of the curve being in the average zone, it is more in the subpar zone. This means that the majority of Hunters out there are slightly below average.
Because you're subpar, that means you're slightly worse than the average. Since you're worse than the average, that means you will lose a majority of your arena games, thus sending your rating plummeting down. Maybe we're unrepresented because people are tired of losing all the time?
Now honestly, it's not hard to push yourself from the "subpar" zone into the "average" zone. Really, it's not. Some dedication, some hard work, and you're there. When I first hit 70, I was terribad at PvP. I didn't know how to kite, I didn't know how to trap, I couldn't even target my enemy half the time.
I talked to some of the better Hunters that I know, worked with them, and now I do okay in PvP. (I'm still not the best, nor am I close) The thing is, people don't work hard, instead blaming their problems on the class mechanics. A friend of mine recently hit 70 on his Hunter, and after getting stomped into the ground in every arena he played, he pretty much said "Stupid Hunters suck at PvP, our class is so crappy, we can't do anything against <insertotherclass>."
I offered to help him get a bit better, and he replied with a "No thanks, I'll just keep playing with this broken class." This is the mentality of many. Now I'm not saying anyone here is doing that, I'm not saying that the OP, or anyone in the linked post is QQing unnessessarily. What I am saying is that many people don't apply themselves to getting better, hitting the brick wall and simply giving up.
Does this mean we should get a buff? Sure, if every class is "average," then everything ought to be balanced. Buffs would help to push the curve more towards a normal one, which would make everything all toasty and lovely. (From a Blizzard standpoint)
BUT, why should the non-motivated be catered to? There's many Gladiators out there (And even a few Merciless Gladiators, if I'm not mistaken) who've proven that Hunters do not fail at life. Likewise there are Gladiator <insert class> that proves that <insert class> doesn't fail.
Anyways, there's my 2 cents. Interpret it for what you will.
Disclaimer: This was not intended as an attack on anyone, if I've offended you in any way, I apologize.
Edited, May 16th 2008 3:01pm by Zeromatter
You can show me figures about how Hunters are under-represented in X bracket, how a majority of Hunters in X bracket are sub 1500, etc. But frankly, it all comes down to the skill of the player, not the class itself.
Our learning curve is much steeper. I know Hunters (Not me, lawl) who tear sh*t up, simply because they know how to take advantage of their class' traits. These Hunters I know aren't average, nor are they above average. These people are stellar individuals. I've also seen Hunters, in 4/5 Season 3, Merciless bow, and full vindicators struggle to break 1200. (That's the bracket my prot Pally sits at >.>) And considering that I play arenas as prot, there is no "Class/Team makup" advantage there. Simply put, these Hunters are horrible.
And it's the same for every class. Each class has their learning curve, some steeper than others. Ironically, Hunters also have a rather large population. What does this mean? Well it skews the statistics in favor of the disadvantaged, or the sub-average.
Normally, the skill level of Hunters would be distributed along an "n" shaped curve. There'd be a handful of absolutely terribad Hunters, a majority of average ones, and a handful of stellar ones. But because of the steep learning curve, instead of the "hump" of the curve being in the average zone, it is more in the subpar zone. This means that the majority of Hunters out there are slightly below average.
Because you're subpar, that means you're slightly worse than the average. Since you're worse than the average, that means you will lose a majority of your arena games, thus sending your rating plummeting down. Maybe we're unrepresented because people are tired of losing all the time?
Now honestly, it's not hard to push yourself from the "subpar" zone into the "average" zone. Really, it's not. Some dedication, some hard work, and you're there. When I first hit 70, I was terribad at PvP. I didn't know how to kite, I didn't know how to trap, I couldn't even target my enemy half the time.
I talked to some of the better Hunters that I know, worked with them, and now I do okay in PvP. (I'm still not the best, nor am I close) The thing is, people don't work hard, instead blaming their problems on the class mechanics. A friend of mine recently hit 70 on his Hunter, and after getting stomped into the ground in every arena he played, he pretty much said "Stupid Hunters suck at PvP, our class is so crappy, we can't do anything against <insertotherclass>."
I offered to help him get a bit better, and he replied with a "No thanks, I'll just keep playing with this broken class." This is the mentality of many. Now I'm not saying anyone here is doing that, I'm not saying that the OP, or anyone in the linked post is QQing unnessessarily. What I am saying is that many people don't apply themselves to getting better, hitting the brick wall and simply giving up.
Does this mean we should get a buff? Sure, if every class is "average," then everything ought to be balanced. Buffs would help to push the curve more towards a normal one, which would make everything all toasty and lovely. (From a Blizzard standpoint)
BUT, why should the non-motivated be catered to? There's many Gladiators out there (And even a few Merciless Gladiators, if I'm not mistaken) who've proven that Hunters do not fail at life. Likewise there are Gladiator <insert class> that proves that <insert class> doesn't fail.
Anyways, there's my 2 cents. Interpret it for what you will.
Disclaimer: This was not intended as an attack on anyone, if I've offended you in any way, I apologize.
Edited, May 16th 2008 3:01pm by Zeromatter
Zeromatter you have a point indeed.Most of the whiners just QQ because they loose.And ok when they have crap gear but when they get the upper gear and still loose,they QQ for everything.
Of course, if they try to practise more they will become better.
But in arena we have serious problems and its not our fault.There is nothing we can do about that.For example in 2v2 bracket the best healers are resto druids.Why? .because pallas are noobs and dont know how to play their character?
No m8, just because resto druids can benefit more from their abilities in arena than pallas.
The same with our class.Because some hunters have managed to reach the 2200+ ratings,is because they are really really good players.A hunter with 2200 rating if he had a melee class he can easily reach 2400+.
Am i asking for a buff?No just blizz
try to rework the mechanics for pvp hunters in the expansion.And also for shamans and pallas.
Is really really boring and stupid some classes to dominate the arena.Arena should be dominated by skilled players and not by classes.
You really believe that the best pvp players happens to be rogues or resto druids?
Edited, May 19th 2008 4:44am by dorogodess
Of course, if they try to practise more they will become better.
But in arena we have serious problems and its not our fault.There is nothing we can do about that.For example in 2v2 bracket the best healers are resto druids.Why? .because pallas are noobs and dont know how to play their character?
No m8, just because resto druids can benefit more from their abilities in arena than pallas.
The same with our class.Because some hunters have managed to reach the 2200+ ratings,is because they are really really good players.A hunter with 2200 rating if he had a melee class he can easily reach 2400+.
Am i asking for a buff?No just blizz
try to rework the mechanics for pvp hunters in the expansion.And also for shamans and pallas.
Is really really boring and stupid some classes to dominate the arena.Arena should be dominated by skilled players and not by classes.
You really believe that the best pvp players happens to be rogues or resto druids?
Edited, May 19th 2008 4:44am by dorogodess
I'm not so sure we hunters need much help in Arena.
If we weren't effective, we wouldn't be among the first targeted.
Any class, if focus fired, will die relatively quickly. Don't count those moments of 'sudden death' as a factor for determining class function.
Generally speaking, target selection seems frequently to be: healers (priests, shaman), hunters, mages/locks (you choose), rogues/warriors, and paladin's.
With the current powers rogues possess, they seem to be up with hunters in some groups minds for next after healer so the order gets jostled by best bang for the buck. Ran into a group last night named 'Death to Rogues' or something like that...
If the enemy chooses to let the Hunter live until the end, they are facing the highest burst dps the longest. If I am the last one killed, I am almost always #1 or #2 on the damage listing, with #1 usually being one of the enemy when I am not there. I can slip to #3 if 2 of the enemy beat me out for whatever reason, usually good cc on me. A team is risking a lot leaving a hunter to the end of a fight, unless they are totally solid on healing (many healers).
All classes can be effectively controlled. Play the cards you are dealt and realize that eventually, you'll be back on top again. Play right and you'll do pretty okay in 3v3 and 5v5. Hunter may not be optimal for 2v2. Any class with damage and healing available should do better there. Healing is the #1 force multiplier in Arena from what I can tell and I don't think a pet is enough of a threat to overcome the power of healing.
If you want to surprise a team that likes to target hunters, get a cat, prowl them and hide yourself if possible (Night Elf), otherwise, find a way to lay low and go in after the initial clash. I've jumped into the early part of a fight when the opposition had the totally wrong people targeted and demolished their healer and caster. They were expecting a rogue and got heavy fire from long range instead. It hurt them. Had we been able to leverage that and win... that's another story.
We have our roles and our capabilities. I can't blame anyone but myself for my mistakes. I'm always going "DOH! Could've countered that with..." lesson learned but maybe not remembered... DOH!
We almost never win, but I am satisfied that I can do my job well enough to be effective. We keep coming close... and getting closer. Maybe we are getting better, but nobody blames the classes at this point. This may have a bigger factor in the 1800+ teams.
If we weren't effective, we wouldn't be among the first targeted.
Any class, if focus fired, will die relatively quickly. Don't count those moments of 'sudden death' as a factor for determining class function.
Generally speaking, target selection seems frequently to be: healers (priests, shaman), hunters, mages/locks (you choose), rogues/warriors, and paladin's.
With the current powers rogues possess, they seem to be up with hunters in some groups minds for next after healer so the order gets jostled by best bang for the buck. Ran into a group last night named 'Death to Rogues' or something like that...
If the enemy chooses to let the Hunter live until the end, they are facing the highest burst dps the longest. If I am the last one killed, I am almost always #1 or #2 on the damage listing, with #1 usually being one of the enemy when I am not there. I can slip to #3 if 2 of the enemy beat me out for whatever reason, usually good cc on me. A team is risking a lot leaving a hunter to the end of a fight, unless they are totally solid on healing (many healers).
All classes can be effectively controlled. Play the cards you are dealt and realize that eventually, you'll be back on top again. Play right and you'll do pretty okay in 3v3 and 5v5. Hunter may not be optimal for 2v2. Any class with damage and healing available should do better there. Healing is the #1 force multiplier in Arena from what I can tell and I don't think a pet is enough of a threat to overcome the power of healing.
If you want to surprise a team that likes to target hunters, get a cat, prowl them and hide yourself if possible (Night Elf), otherwise, find a way to lay low and go in after the initial clash. I've jumped into the early part of a fight when the opposition had the totally wrong people targeted and demolished their healer and caster. They were expecting a rogue and got heavy fire from long range instead. It hurt them. Had we been able to leverage that and win... that's another story.
We have our roles and our capabilities. I can't blame anyone but myself for my mistakes. I'm always going "DOH! Could've countered that with..." lesson learned but maybe not remembered... DOH!
We almost never win, but I am satisfied that I can do my job well enough to be effective. We keep coming close... and getting closer. Maybe we are getting better, but nobody blames the classes at this point. This may have a bigger factor in the 1800+ teams.
Quote:
A warlock is set up to PvE identically, yet they are one of the (if not the) most dominant PvP classes. The primary difference? Lack of dead-zone and the fact that so much of their dmg is done with insta-cast DoTs. (hmmm...and fear, actually, which is pretty huge)
That's actually one of the points the poster brought up. We can't do very much damage at all when running because we have very few instant cast spells. Warlocks, on the other hand, have many instant cast DoTs and can just fear when a player gets close to them.
Just saying part of the reason why locks and hunters are so different in PvP.
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