Hello paladins,
Just wondering if the haste from this buff effects the proc rate of weapon abilities/enchantments. Reason being i bought my baby pally the searing blade and put firey on it, if the haste doesnt lessen the procs per strike then im guessing i'll get greater DPS from crusader over righteousness.
I browsed your stickies but could not find a definitive answer, although i learned some great general tips and rekindled a desire to watch the original pirates of the carribean, so no time was wasted there.
Thanks in advance.
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It depends if the proc is on a PPM system. Most procs I believe are a proc-per-minute style (like Seal of Command procs at 7 times per minute). However, equipment might be different; if it is, say, a flat 20% chance, then yes, SotC will be decent for it.
Keep in mind though, you have to compare the damage with that seal as compared to a better DPS seal. If you're 20 you'll have SoC, which is probably a better choice.
Fiery weapon, is, I am fairly positive, a PPM system. So SotC is NOT useful for it. It is somewhere between 3 and 6 PPM (wowhead had one comment saying 3, thottbot had 2 comments around the 6 PPM area).
Sorry, to conclude, No. Don't use it, as even if it helps with the weapon, it won't help with fiery enchant. Interestingly, SotC WILL help with the fiery blaze enchant, but it is weaker and breaks CC (although it is AoE). Choice is yours.
Keep in mind though, you have to compare the damage with that seal as compared to a better DPS seal. If you're 20 you'll have SoC, which is probably a better choice.
Fiery weapon, is, I am fairly positive, a PPM system. So SotC is NOT useful for it. It is somewhere between 3 and 6 PPM (wowhead had one comment saying 3, thottbot had 2 comments around the 6 PPM area).
Sorry, to conclude, No. Don't use it, as even if it helps with the weapon, it won't help with fiery enchant. Interestingly, SotC WILL help with the fiery blaze enchant, but it is weaker and breaks CC (although it is AoE). Choice is yours.
I had actually noticed seal of command in my talent tree and was speccing for it.
fairly new to melee so not as savvy about weapon procs and the like, thanks for the fast response. :)
fairly new to melee so not as savvy about weapon procs and the like, thanks for the fast response. :)
LockeColeMA wrote:
Sorry, to conclude, No. Don't use it, as even if it helps with the weapon, it won't help with fiery enchant. Interestingly, SotC WILL help with the fiery blaze enchant, but it is weaker and breaks CC (although it is AoE). Choice is yours.
I've always wanted to make a goofy prot paladin twink with that enchant.
Locke, I am not sure you are correct in assuming that SotC will not help out fiery weapon procs...
It depends solely on the answer to the following question: Is A) the proc chance calculated on the base attack speed of your weapon or is B) the proc chance calculated on the hasted attack speed of your weapon?
Example:
* 6 ppm
* base weapon speed: 2.00
* weapon speed with SotC: 2.00/1.40=1.43
If the answer is A) you will get the following:
- ppm = 6
- herefrom blizzard calculates a proc chance per hit based on BASE attack speed, meaning the proc chance per weapon swing = 6/(60/2.00)=20%.
- which means that with each hit from then on, you have 20% chance to proc fiery. Different weapon speed, different proc chance per swing.
- 20% proc chance means (without any form of haste) that you will on average get 20%*(60/2.00)=6 hits per minute, corresponding with the 6 ppm naturally.
- 20% proc chance means (WITH any form of haste, assuming SotC here) that you will on average get 20%*(60/1.43)=8.4 hits per minute.
- which means that your fiery will do more damage per minute (on average) when using SotC for the haste.
If the answer is B) you will get the following:
- ppm = 6
- herefrom blizzard calculates a proc chance per hit based on HASTED attack speed, meaning the proc chance per weapon swing = 6/(60/1.43)=14.5% chance to proc per swing.
- which means that from then on, you have 14.3% chance to proc fiery. Different weapon speed, different proc chance per swing.
- this again means that you will on average get 14,3%*(60/1.43)=6 procs per minute, equal to the ppm.
- and thus in scenario B) fiery will not benefit from SotC.
Now after all of this, I think A) applies...
BUT, SotC might add to your weapon procs, it will still not add enough to close the gap, certainly not with SoC around.
One of the few uses SotC has imo are quicker weapon skill levelling (+40% number of swings) and perhaps disrupting a healer in PVP a little faster...
It depends solely on the answer to the following question: Is A) the proc chance calculated on the base attack speed of your weapon or is B) the proc chance calculated on the hasted attack speed of your weapon?
Example:
* 6 ppm
* base weapon speed: 2.00
* weapon speed with SotC: 2.00/1.40=1.43
If the answer is A) you will get the following:
- ppm = 6
- herefrom blizzard calculates a proc chance per hit based on BASE attack speed, meaning the proc chance per weapon swing = 6/(60/2.00)=20%.
- which means that with each hit from then on, you have 20% chance to proc fiery. Different weapon speed, different proc chance per swing.
- 20% proc chance means (without any form of haste) that you will on average get 20%*(60/2.00)=6 hits per minute, corresponding with the 6 ppm naturally.
- 20% proc chance means (WITH any form of haste, assuming SotC here) that you will on average get 20%*(60/1.43)=8.4 hits per minute.
- which means that your fiery will do more damage per minute (on average) when using SotC for the haste.
If the answer is B) you will get the following:
- ppm = 6
- herefrom blizzard calculates a proc chance per hit based on HASTED attack speed, meaning the proc chance per weapon swing = 6/(60/1.43)=14.5% chance to proc per swing.
- which means that from then on, you have 14.3% chance to proc fiery. Different weapon speed, different proc chance per swing.
- this again means that you will on average get 14,3%*(60/1.43)=6 procs per minute, equal to the ppm.
- and thus in scenario B) fiery will not benefit from SotC.
Now after all of this, I think A) applies...
BUT, SotC might add to your weapon procs, it will still not add enough to close the gap, certainly not with SoC around.
One of the few uses SotC has imo are quicker weapon skill levelling (+40% number of swings) and perhaps disrupting a healer in PVP a little faster...
Quote:
Locke, I am not sure you are correct in assuming that SotC will not help out fiery weapon procs...
It depends solely on the answer to the following question: Is A) the proc chance calculated on the base attack speed of your weapon or is B) the proc chance calculated on the hasted attack speed of your weapon?
It depends solely on the answer to the following question: Is A) the proc chance calculated on the base attack speed of your weapon or is B) the proc chance calculated on the hasted attack speed of your weapon?
This is true. I figured that it would be based on weapon speed. Now, looking up wowwiki:
Quote:
Procs per minute scales procs per hit according to weapon speed. Here's the formula:
Does your weapon speed change when under the effect of SotC in the character pane? I believe it does. Wowwiki is a little vague here; it does NOT say BASE weapon speed. I believe that weapon speed = weapon speed after modifiers; the wiki is silent on the subject. I feel this also because, with your scenario A, then you no longer have 6 PPM. I don't think haste will affect the rate... but it's just a feeling I have, and may be wrong.
If anyone wants to spade this out, feel free to do so; I'm curious!
Is "Spade" a term used in this game as well? I know it from Kingdom of Loathing... it basically means to run tests until you are reasonably sure, statistically, that you know the answer
I agree with your conclusion; with SoC, it is not worth it to use SotC.
Looking over what I just wrote, I think you might be right with the haste after all. It says weapon speed, NOT attack speed. Which is what I was thinking of. Still, conclusion is the same :)
Quote:
Just wondering if the haste from this buff [Enhanced SotC] effects the proc rate of weapon abilities/enchantments.
I don't believe so. Nearly all enchantment procs are normalized and calculated based on the listed speed of the weapon, not counting haste effects. Haste is applied after proc and effect calculations as far as I understand the mechanics.
Bummer.
Exactly, Therion. Which does not mean "bummer" but "yay!".
Proc chance is calculated before haste effects, meaning haste effects will NOT influence the proc chance (keeping it based on a slower speed, thus a higher proc chance per swing) but WILL increase the actual amount of proc that happen on average per minute.
Oh well.
Proc chance is calculated before haste effects, meaning haste effects will NOT influence the proc chance (keeping it based on a slower speed, thus a higher proc chance per swing) but WILL increase the actual amount of proc that happen on average per minute.
Oh well.
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