Hello!
I would like to get more infos about the weakness of palatanks and what I can do to upgrade my survavibility.
Here are my current stats as a palatank beginning in Hyjal/BT:
- 15600 pv unbuff, ~20k pv with all buffs
- 50.83% total avoidance unbuff (uncrushable of course...)
- ~63% mitigation from armor unbuff
- ~300 mitigation from blocks
- 433 spell damage unbuff, with good spell hit and a little physical hit. (don't remember but since I respecced to pick up precision it's awesome).
BT hard hitting trashes can kill me with about 4 or 5 hits... (I don't speak about aoe tanking, that is really more easy as mobs don't hit that hard).
I always hear that our main war prot is far far above me in mitigation, and the raid leader even says that he is above druid tanks. Currently his gear is better than mine, no doubt.
My raid leader spoke about 15% less mitigation for a palatank against a warrior with same gear.
I thought it was 4% physical and 6% magical less mitigation for a palatank, if I read the talents.
So what are the real numbers? If I am correct, in addition to talents:
- same mitigation from armor
- same total avoidance, or more due to agility better factor for pallies?
- what would be the block value of a warrior?
- Is there any other factor I didn't see?
Edited, May 14th 2008 8:02am by egraynn
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Well I don't know about a flat 15% more mitigation than a warrior. However, a Warrior does stack shield block value more than a Paladin (typically) because not only is it more mitigation, I believe they also get more threat depending on the amount of damage blocked. (More threat or more rage, which if it's the latter still translates to more threat).
What I know about warriors, is that rage gains are relative to damage dealt and received only. I really don't know anything about block value providing rage, but I could understand it would give threat if you consider the blocked amount as something like a heal. (this way paladins would also get threat).
However the only things that logically would make a greater difference than the 4% through talents in mitigation as I understand it would be (with similar armor):
- block value
- total avoidance
- (demo shout?)
However the only things that logically would make a greater difference than the 4% through talents in mitigation as I understand it would be (with similar armor):
- block value
- total avoidance
- (demo shout?)
they dont get threat from blocking thats pallies. they get threat by stacking it because of shield slam. from alla
Shield Slam
Live | Test | History
Rank 1
Slam the target with your shield, causing 225 to 235 damage, modified by your shield block value, and dispels 1 magic effect on the target. Also causes a high amount of threat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Effect 1: Dispel
Effect 2: School Damage (Physical)
Value: 225 to 235
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
School: Physical
Level: 40
Classes: Warrior
Rage: 20
Range: 5 yards
Cast Time: 0.00
Cooldown: 6.0 seconds
Updated: 2008-05-13 08:24:11
now have an armory for both?? i find i'm behind my mt in dodge even though we are both about same hp. i just broke 13k buff free.some of your sd may be takeing place of deff ****. i know a pally buddy of mine who went for the rep shield from the new island but he got the spell hit and spell damage over the one with deff **** on it.
Shield Slam
Live | Test | History
Rank 1
Slam the target with your shield, causing 225 to 235 damage, modified by your shield block value, and dispels 1 magic effect on the target. Also causes a high amount of threat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Effect 1: Dispel
Effect 2: School Damage (Physical)
Value: 225 to 235
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
School: Physical
Level: 40
Classes: Warrior
Rage: 20
Range: 5 yards
Cast Time: 0.00
Cooldown: 6.0 seconds
Updated: 2008-05-13 08:24:11
now have an armory for both?? i find i'm behind my mt in dodge even though we are both about same hp. i just broke 13k buff free.some of your sd may be takeing place of deff ****. i know a pally buddy of mine who went for the rep shield from the new island but he got the spell hit and spell damage over the one with deff **** on it.
Raid support can make a pretty big difference in mitigation. If the warrior tank is getting Improved Devotion Aura, Demoralizing Shout, Thunder Clap, The 25% armor bonus from their healers' crits, and chugging ironshield potions, he's certainly going to outclass the mitigation of a pally tank who's not getting all those benefits.
You might want to take a look at the raid make-up. Compare what the paladins are getting compared to the warriors. See if you can get a fury warrior to do thunder clap and demoralizing shout for you, maybe switch some of the healers around to improve your chances of getting that 25% armor bonus. Also, look at the combat logs and see how much mitigation the warrior is gaining from shield wall, ironshield potions, etc.
You might want to take a look at the raid make-up. Compare what the paladins are getting compared to the warriors. See if you can get a fury warrior to do thunder clap and demoralizing shout for you, maybe switch some of the healers around to improve your chances of getting that 25% armor bonus. Also, look at the combat logs and see how much mitigation the warrior is gaining from shield wall, ironshield potions, etc.
Where do Warriors have the edge on Paladins in terms of survivability?
They stack more Block Value because it's one of their key threat stats. They also stack more Strength which also adds to Block Value. This gives a minor boost.
The have more armor. Yes, they're wearing the same plate as us, but on a case by case basis, their armor is slightly higher than ours. We make up for this in lighter hitting encounters with Ardent Defender. When Ardent Defender is active, we are the only class that can SURPASS the 75% armor/innate cap as Ardent Defender is not on the same mechanic as armor and innate abilities are. This isn't something that would help a Black Temple tank much though.
They receive 4% less global damage due to innate abilities. This is important because it scales for us VERY POORLY. 4% becomes GREATER when you start getting hit harder. When you're hardly being scratched it's almost nothing. This means that the further you go into end-game, the ACTUAL difference in damage that you take compared to a Warrior will INCREASE. The percentage will stay relatively the same, but the raw numerical difference will increase.
They generally have slightly higher avoidence earlier. Again, by the time you reach your gear levels you'll either be relatively close in terms of avoidence or you'll actually have slightly better. Generally speaking though, a Warrior will have an advantage in terms of pure avoidence all the way through to the end of Tier 5 content. A great deal of this comes from itemization.
Also remember that in encounters such as Supremus, the OFF TANK will be taking HUGE hits. Relatively speaking, they'll be taking 50% more damage than the MAIN TANK overall. This will happen regardless of what class is off tanking.
Your HP sounds a smidgeon low. I think I hit about 16.5k base by the time we had the first bosses in Hyjal/BT down. Still, it should be plenty -- and I was Main Tanking for the most part at the time.
Warriors will have Demoralizing Shout and Thunderclap up all the time as well. If you're both tanking different mobs, you might not get one or either of these on your guy. When you're tanking together though, this shouldn't be an issue.
You're not in an aweful place. Your HP and pure avoidence could probably use a little bit of work. A great deal of your issues are probably coming from the fact that the Warrior tank IS better geared than you are.
And as for this Warrior being able to mitigate more damage than Druids... Any Druid tank at that level WILL be armor capped at 75%. A Warrior is armor capped at 65% because their innate 10% damage reduction is calculated on the same mechanic as armor is. It's conceivable that a Warrior COULD attain the same level of mitigation as a Druid under ideal circumstances with a high enough Block Value, but it's important to remember that a Warrior WILL take unblocked hits (read: Crushing Blows). To a Druid, a Crushing Blow will ALWAYS have the same degree of mitigation applied to it as a regular hit. Warriors will mitigate less damage when they take a Crushing Blow as opposed to a Blocked Hit.
Edited, May 14th 2008 12:57pm by Losie
They stack more Block Value because it's one of their key threat stats. They also stack more Strength which also adds to Block Value. This gives a minor boost.
The have more armor. Yes, they're wearing the same plate as us, but on a case by case basis, their armor is slightly higher than ours. We make up for this in lighter hitting encounters with Ardent Defender. When Ardent Defender is active, we are the only class that can SURPASS the 75% armor/innate cap as Ardent Defender is not on the same mechanic as armor and innate abilities are. This isn't something that would help a Black Temple tank much though.
They receive 4% less global damage due to innate abilities. This is important because it scales for us VERY POORLY. 4% becomes GREATER when you start getting hit harder. When you're hardly being scratched it's almost nothing. This means that the further you go into end-game, the ACTUAL difference in damage that you take compared to a Warrior will INCREASE. The percentage will stay relatively the same, but the raw numerical difference will increase.
They generally have slightly higher avoidence earlier. Again, by the time you reach your gear levels you'll either be relatively close in terms of avoidence or you'll actually have slightly better. Generally speaking though, a Warrior will have an advantage in terms of pure avoidence all the way through to the end of Tier 5 content. A great deal of this comes from itemization.
Also remember that in encounters such as Supremus, the OFF TANK will be taking HUGE hits. Relatively speaking, they'll be taking 50% more damage than the MAIN TANK overall. This will happen regardless of what class is off tanking.
Your HP sounds a smidgeon low. I think I hit about 16.5k base by the time we had the first bosses in Hyjal/BT down. Still, it should be plenty -- and I was Main Tanking for the most part at the time.
Warriors will have Demoralizing Shout and Thunderclap up all the time as well. If you're both tanking different mobs, you might not get one or either of these on your guy. When you're tanking together though, this shouldn't be an issue.
You're not in an aweful place. Your HP and pure avoidence could probably use a little bit of work. A great deal of your issues are probably coming from the fact that the Warrior tank IS better geared than you are.
And as for this Warrior being able to mitigate more damage than Druids... Any Druid tank at that level WILL be armor capped at 75%. A Warrior is armor capped at 65% because their innate 10% damage reduction is calculated on the same mechanic as armor is. It's conceivable that a Warrior COULD attain the same level of mitigation as a Druid under ideal circumstances with a high enough Block Value, but it's important to remember that a Warrior WILL take unblocked hits (read: Crushing Blows). To a Druid, a Crushing Blow will ALWAYS have the same degree of mitigation applied to it as a regular hit. Warriors will mitigate less damage when they take a Crushing Blow as opposed to a Blocked Hit.
Edited, May 14th 2008 12:57pm by Losie
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned "osh*t buttons". While abilities like last stand and shield wall are useless when everything is going perfectly, their value should not be underestimated in the context of a guild first kill, a well timed shield wall at < 10% and with healers running oom can mean the difference between yet another 1% wipe and a kill, similarly, last stand can cover for healers slipping up (so many encounters involve silences, or having to "dodge" things like fire, which can leave even the best healers unable to heal while you're still learning the encounter.)
So yeah, aside from issues such as stance dance, there is little difference between a well geared warrior, paladin or druid for your MT for "farm raiding" but Warriors will usually be guild MTs due to their superiority when things go wrong.
Back to the main post, its probably block value, in my tank gear I can almost match our warriors on HP and hard avoidance (its an offspec so i'm not as well geared), but I find it extremely hard to stack shield block, which is significantly lower than most warriors. In trying to stack more its easy to slip into crushability, while a warrior would have no trouble swapping (say) block rating for block value.
Edited, May 14th 2008 2:39pm by Tinyknight
Edited, May 14th 2008 2:39pm by Tinyknight
So yeah, aside from issues such as stance dance, there is little difference between a well geared warrior, paladin or druid for your MT for "farm raiding" but Warriors will usually be guild MTs due to their superiority when things go wrong.
Back to the main post, its probably block value, in my tank gear I can almost match our warriors on HP and hard avoidance (its an offspec so i'm not as well geared), but I find it extremely hard to stack shield block, which is significantly lower than most warriors. In trying to stack more its easy to slip into crushability, while a warrior would have no trouble swapping (say) block rating for block value.
Edited, May 14th 2008 2:39pm by Tinyknight
Edited, May 14th 2008 2:39pm by Tinyknight
egraynn wrote:
Hello!
I would like to get more infos about the weakness of palatanks and what I can do to upgrade my survavibility.
Here are my current stats as a palatank beginning in Hyjal/BT:
- 15600 pv unbuff, ~20k pv with all buffs
- 50.83% total avoidance unbuff (uncrushable of course...)
- ~63% mitigation from armor unbuff
- ~300 mitigation from blocks
- 433 spell damage unbuff, with good spell hit and a little physical hit. (don't remember but since I respecced to pick up precision it's awesome).
BT hard hitting trashes can kill me with about 4 or 5 hits... (I don't speak about aoe tanking, that is really more easy as mobs don't hit that hard).
I would like to get more infos about the weakness of palatanks and what I can do to upgrade my survavibility.
Here are my current stats as a palatank beginning in Hyjal/BT:
- 15600 pv unbuff, ~20k pv with all buffs
- 50.83% total avoidance unbuff (uncrushable of course...)
- ~63% mitigation from armor unbuff
- ~300 mitigation from blocks
- 433 spell damage unbuff, with good spell hit and a little physical hit. (don't remember but since I respecced to pick up precision it's awesome).
BT hard hitting trashes can kill me with about 4 or 5 hits... (I don't speak about aoe tanking, that is really more easy as mobs don't hit that hard).
I'm curious as to why you are being hit 4-5 times without receiving heals. Your stats are very comparable to my Pally's stats, and I have tanked even as far as Kalecgos.
egraynn wrote:
I always hear that our main war prot is far far above me in mitigation, and the raid leader even says that he is above druid tanks. Currently his gear is better than mine, no doubt.
My raid leader spoke about 15% less mitigation for a palatank against a warrior with same gear.
My raid leader spoke about 15% less mitigation for a palatank against a warrior with same gear.
90% of statistics are completely made up. While paladins do take more overall damage than a warrior, the difference is rather negligable, amounting to more like 2-3%. This is because most boss fights will have one or two crushing blows get through on a warrior, and none should happen on a paladin.
Losie wrote:
And as for this Warrior being able to mitigate more damage than Druids... Any Druid tank at that level WILL be armor capped at 75%. A Warrior is armor capped at 65% because their innate 10% damage reduction is calculated on the same mechanic as armor is.
This is incorrect. Defensive Stance is a separate multiplier, which is both good and bad. It's good because it allows for a higher theoretical top mitigation, but it's bad because if you're sitting at, say, 63% mitigation from armor, Defensive Stance only boosts it to 66.3%, not to 73%.
Losie wrote:
It's conceivable that a Warrior COULD attain the same level of mitigation as a Druid under ideal circumstances with a high enough Block Value, but it's important to remember that a Warrior WILL take unblocked hits (read: Crushing Blows). To a Druid, a Crushing Blow will ALWAYS have the same degree of mitigation applied to it as a regular hit. Warriors will mitigate less damage when they take a Crushing Blow as opposed to a Blocked Hit.
The point where druid and warrior mitigation meet depends on the attack speed of the boss and the block value of the warrior. If the boss attacks slow enough to never land a crushing blow on a warrior, warriors will always be ahead. This is even further multiplied if we start moving in to the realm of consumables (Ironshield Potions, to be precise) and buffs like Devotion Aura.
Well thanks a lot for all those infos...
I know I have to gear up and that the war has a better stuff.
What I would like to know exactly is theorical.
With exactly the same gear, and with let's say the same raid buffs, what must I actually expect as differnce globaly in mitigation.
I hear many things... from 4% in the text up to 100% in the mouth of sceptical players about palatanks.
So in theory what would you say about that difference?
I know I have to gear up and that the war has a better stuff.
What I would like to know exactly is theorical.
With exactly the same gear, and with let's say the same raid buffs, what must I actually expect as differnce globaly in mitigation.
I hear many things... from 4% in the text up to 100% in the mouth of sceptical players about palatanks.
So in theory what would you say about that difference?
As far as I can tell, in exactly identical gear, the difference will be 4% (10% for defensive stance vs 6% on righteous fury) and 6% on spell damage (an extra 6% for warriors, 4% for paladins, on top of the other reduction) PLUS a little more block value (warriors get a bonus 10% str from talents, paladins don't).
This assumes all of the same buffs, gear, sockets, debuffs on the boss, everything. It's worth noting that in this situation the paladin would actually have better stamina (16% from talents for a pally, only 5% for a warrior).
Edited, May 14th 2008 3:14pm by Tinyknight
This assumes all of the same buffs, gear, sockets, debuffs on the boss, everything. It's worth noting that in this situation the paladin would actually have better stamina (16% from talents for a pally, only 5% for a warrior).
Edited, May 14th 2008 3:14pm by Tinyknight
Yea.. straight theory crafting the difference isn't much.
When you hear STUPID high "guesstimates" of how much more damage you take, it's coming from people who are biased to other tanks.
Thanks Ialaman, when it comes to theorycrafting and mechanics I tend to trust anything you have to say. My favorite number crunching Warrior is convinced by his parses that Defensive Stance is on the same additive mechanic as armor, but reassured by your information I'll challenge his theory and see if his numbers jive a little better.
When you hear STUPID high "guesstimates" of how much more damage you take, it's coming from people who are biased to other tanks.
Thanks Ialaman, when it comes to theorycrafting and mechanics I tend to trust anything you have to say. My favorite number crunching Warrior is convinced by his parses that Defensive Stance is on the same additive mechanic as armor, but reassured by your information I'll challenge his theory and see if his numbers jive a little better.
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