Okay, you guys can all laugh, I know I don't believe it and it only happened by my own stupidity, but I may have stumbled across something totally wierd.
About a month ago, I was doing an instance then logged off afterwards. I logged back in next on our groups normal Arena night. Well, everyone was ready to go and I was late so before I knew it we were in our first match and I hadn't changed ANY of my pet settings from when I was instancing.
Now, I didn't notice this for the first 8 matches but I was wondering why my pet was dying so much. I then noticed I'd left growl on, claw off and prowl off. So I fixed it.
What didn't hit me until AFTER the dust had settled was that my pet had died in 7 of those 8 matches with Growl on. My pet almost never dies in arena. He lived both the last two matches as well. I got to wondering why that was.
I've been experimenting on and off the last few weeks leaving growl on during certain matches. This is STUPID, but here goes... Is is possible that growl is actually distracting enough to players to make them focus on the pet? I know it works on mobs, it's supposed to, but against a human?
It sounds inane, I don't believe it, but the evidence seems to show that there might be a psychological effect of that pet going RAWR! every so often that the players actually target it.
I don't even know if this has a game effect >IF< it's true. We still lose but then again, we suck. Other teams should pay us gold to play us....
Anyway, has anyone else had a similar experience with growl against players? I think I'm nuts for even supposing this, losing my mind and all that, but is it possible?
(edit: spelling- DOH!)
Edited, May 12th 2008 9:36am by sloshot
Edited, May 12th 2008 9:37am by sloshot
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Anecdotal, Stupid, Inane... but true? Growl in PvP.
Anecdotal, Stupid, Inane... but true? Growl in PvP.Follow
If you're sending your pet in alone, the smartest thing for your enemy to do is to kill your pet.
Other players don't even know when your pet casts growl, so no, there is no psychological effect.
Other players don't even know when your pet casts growl, so no, there is no psychological effect.
01001001 00100000 01001100 01001001 01001011 01000101 00100000 01000011 01000001 01001011 01000101
You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
Forum FAQ
You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
Forum FAQ
Also interesting, when I go into bgs with my pet and leave growl on auto-cast, the pet somehow knows to not use it on players, havent tried in arena though. (smart pet)
I'm pretty sure growl doesnt have an effect on enemy players. Might just be unlucky, or you just happened to play against some teams with actual brains who kill hunter's pets if you send them in :)
Wouldn't it be really awesome if a pet's growl had a chance (albeit, low) to change a player's target to it? If it did happen, and everyone knew about it, people who go after a hunter's pet first, and give us a couple of extra seconds to kill them while they're killing our pets.
ProjectMidnight wrote:
Wouldn't it be really awesome if a pet's growl had a chance (albeit, low) to change a player's target to it? If it did happen, and everyone knew about it, people who go after a hunter's pet first, and give us a couple of extra seconds to kill them while they're killing our pets.
I've always thought that taunt should change your target to the taunter in PvP, it would be cool if growl would too, though I suppose it would be better if it had a chance to do so since it's not a "real" taunt.
Okay, thought of all that stuff.
Never send Morris in alone unless it's to harass a caster that thinks they can hide and cast at will. I'd rather have them casting against my pet than against a party member.
Next, Morris almost NEVER dies in PvP. That's why this stood out. Great teams kill US long before they'd bother with my pet... we really stink... P-U!
Lastly, I've done some tests since and about half the time, if I have growl on, he dies.
Maybe it's a game mechanic, a bug or something. I dunno, it's just wierd. I was wondering if anyone else had experienced it. Apparently I was the only one too dumb enough to leave growl on... LOL!
Never send Morris in alone unless it's to harass a caster that thinks they can hide and cast at will. I'd rather have them casting against my pet than against a party member.
Next, Morris almost NEVER dies in PvP. That's why this stood out. Great teams kill US long before they'd bother with my pet... we really stink... P-U!
Lastly, I've done some tests since and about half the time, if I have growl on, he dies.
Maybe it's a game mechanic, a bug or something. I dunno, it's just wierd. I was wondering if anyone else had experienced it. Apparently I was the only one too dumb enough to leave growl on... LOL!
sloshot wrote:
This is STUPID, but here goes... Is is possible that growl is actually distracting enough to players to make them focus on the pet? I know it works on mobs, it's supposed to, but against a human?
No. Growl has no effect on players, and might not even be cast on them (I'd need to log an Arena or GB With Growl on and see if it showed in the WWS). What you're seeing is smart Arena players killing your Pet. It happens a lot in the Arena, a lot more than in any BG I've ever been in, and my ratio of Arena/BG is very, very small. A focus firing 3v3 or 5v5 can kill your Pet in just a second or two, and that reduces your DPS and mana/options by enough that it's worthwhile to do.
Nobody else has asked, so I will:
Why was growl on while you were instancing to start with?
I usally have growl on most of the time, but the moment I "zone in" to anything (instance, bg, arena), its gets turned off as its just a waste of focus.
Why was growl on while you were instancing to start with?
I usally have growl on most of the time, but the moment I "zone in" to anything (instance, bg, arena), its gets turned off as its just a waste of focus.
To Kompera:
I am MM spec. My pet is nothing more than some minor damage add. What he does is a joke in PvP. I put him on prowl to get that first shot bonus but it's more comedic than anything. My pet is no threat. If you are targeting a Marksman's pet, you are doing EXACTLY what I want you to be doing. That is fire that is not being directed at a party member. Heck, I'll even toss a heal on him if he's not being hit hard enough to kill him outright.
I've had players sit there and engage Morris, and I am thrilled when they do so. That's nothing but win for me. BM pets are different, they are a great deal of the effect of a BM hunter in Arena. Downing a BM's pet in Arena removes most of the BM hunters utility in arena so targeting the pet makes sense and I agree with you in that case. SV... well, I'm not so sure. I am inclined to think of it more like an MM pet.
Uzemaki:
I routinely 'instance' with (not to put too fine a point on it) poor tanks. By putting my pet on the same target the tank has, if they lose aggro, it goes to the pet. This is better than going to the healers.
Also, Morris frequently off tanks so he needs the growl to keep the target from going on to the healers or mages.
When I'm in a situation where I have a good tank or need growl off, I turn it off.
I also do dailies and put growl on. So I was using the word "instancing" as a generic term for adventuring/other than Arena work.
In most cases, in an instance, I try to keep growl off an manually growl. However, when I know the tank is weak, they will go on and off keeping aggro. They will pull it back from the pet when they get their act together. Our healer is generally aware of this issue and knows to help heal the pet when he has aggro.
A pet is a poor tank at 70. I am aware of this fact. Morris frequently dies doing the role, but I'd rather lose the pet than a healer which is basically a wipe. If I do my job right, it keeps him alive most of the time. When I ***** up, he tends to die.
I am MM spec. My pet is nothing more than some minor damage add. What he does is a joke in PvP. I put him on prowl to get that first shot bonus but it's more comedic than anything. My pet is no threat. If you are targeting a Marksman's pet, you are doing EXACTLY what I want you to be doing. That is fire that is not being directed at a party member. Heck, I'll even toss a heal on him if he's not being hit hard enough to kill him outright.
I've had players sit there and engage Morris, and I am thrilled when they do so. That's nothing but win for me. BM pets are different, they are a great deal of the effect of a BM hunter in Arena. Downing a BM's pet in Arena removes most of the BM hunters utility in arena so targeting the pet makes sense and I agree with you in that case. SV... well, I'm not so sure. I am inclined to think of it more like an MM pet.
Uzemaki:
I routinely 'instance' with (not to put too fine a point on it) poor tanks. By putting my pet on the same target the tank has, if they lose aggro, it goes to the pet. This is better than going to the healers.
Also, Morris frequently off tanks so he needs the growl to keep the target from going on to the healers or mages.
When I'm in a situation where I have a good tank or need growl off, I turn it off.
I also do dailies and put growl on. So I was using the word "instancing" as a generic term for adventuring/other than Arena work.
In most cases, in an instance, I try to keep growl off an manually growl. However, when I know the tank is weak, they will go on and off keeping aggro. They will pull it back from the pet when they get their act together. Our healer is generally aware of this issue and knows to help heal the pet when he has aggro.
A pet is a poor tank at 70. I am aware of this fact. Morris frequently dies doing the role, but I'd rather lose the pet than a healer which is basically a wipe. If I do my job right, it keeps him alive most of the time. When I ***** up, he tends to die.
One thing that I think is confusing the responders:
I know that 'growl' has no game effect against a player other than to trigger the audio effect agaist the player. This is what I am wondering about.
Does a player notice a pet going "RAWR" against them and instinctively want to eliminate a threat?
I've noticed it when I have hunter pets on me and they have growl on (Happens more in BG and when I was on a PvP server and doing open PvP.) Arena is rare and probably from a newbie hunter that doesn't have growl off.
So what I'm curious about, and the point of the post is to wonder about the psychological effect of it. I agree, I don't think it has any game effect on a player, as I pointed out in the first post.
I know that 'growl' has no game effect against a player other than to trigger the audio effect agaist the player. This is what I am wondering about.
Does a player notice a pet going "RAWR" against them and instinctively want to eliminate a threat?
I've noticed it when I have hunter pets on me and they have growl on (Happens more in BG and when I was on a PvP server and doing open PvP.) Arena is rare and probably from a newbie hunter that doesn't have growl off.
So what I'm curious about, and the point of the post is to wonder about the psychological effect of it. I agree, I don't think it has any game effect on a player, as I pointed out in the first post.
notice that you also said you left prowl off as well. Unless you fight a group compromised of a certain way of killing, (aoers, drainers, etc) and if you suck as bad as you say you do (don't worry im no captain arena player either) you have that lull of where you scan what the other team has and on vent or TS give a kill order and execute, usually in a matter of seconds. Now picture they see your pet hauling *** across the field of battle without prowl and maybe a melee by his side, of course he will die, he is in bright sunlight running along fearless, and sadly stupid. With prowl your pet isnt seen, if smart they know you have it, but what isnt seen wont be initially targeted either. a 5v5 has to wait if they only see 3 players, especially alliance, to know what the stealthed or shadowmelded characters are by waiting for the attack or seeking them out, and most of the time the stealth finds you first.
So keep your kitty prowled, if he is the last one to reveal himself when the battle commences he will most likely be the last one attacked.
So keep your kitty prowled, if he is the last one to reveal himself when the battle commences he will most likely be the last one attacked.
I fullly understand.
He normally has prowl on, I didn't in the instance I cited, I don't use it in common adventuring/instancing unless needed then I do it manually and send him in.
I actually never 'send pet' in Arena until our group 'engages'. I watched a hunter send his pet early into our group and they hadn't even started to attack. We killed it fast and laughed. It was a mistake on the other hunters part, don't know why he didn't pull him back. We still lost the fight, so they got the last laugh, but I agree, sending a pet into 5 foes with no support is a BAD idea... visible or not! LOL!
He normally has prowl on, I didn't in the instance I cited, I don't use it in common adventuring/instancing unless needed then I do it manually and send him in.
I actually never 'send pet' in Arena until our group 'engages'. I watched a hunter send his pet early into our group and they hadn't even started to attack. We killed it fast and laughed. It was a mistake on the other hunters part, don't know why he didn't pull him back. We still lost the fight, so they got the last laugh, but I agree, sending a pet into 5 foes with no support is a BAD idea... visible or not! LOL!
sloshot wrote:
To Kompera:
I am MM spec. My pet is nothing more than some minor damage add. What he does is a joke in PvP.
I am MM spec. My pet is nothing more than some minor damage add. What he does is a joke in PvP.
This is a myth, propagated by MM Hunters who seem to feel the need to take "personal" credit for their damage and disparage the contribution to their total damage output of their Pets. BM Pets do more damage than MM or SV Pets, yes, but that doesn't make the damage done by MM Pets a joke. It's the whole "personal" damage attitude which is a joke. I'm a Hunter, my damage is the sum of that done by myself and my Pet. We come together, it's a class feature. Anyone who thinks that my Pet's damage isn't completely and totally attributable to me can watch where that damage goes if I die during a fight.
As a quick and dirty example, in the last Hyjal run the MM Hunter's Pet did 18% of his damage. So tell me, is 16% of your damage really "a minor damage add"? Would you grind for weeks or months for components to craft an item that would contribute 18% of your damage? Hell, yes you would. You'd do that, and probably have over and over, for a 1% damage increase. You've probably spent DKP on items which gave you a percent or less damage increase.
In PvP is it worth 2 seconds to eliminate 16% of an opponent's damage potential? Hell, yes it is. It is of course better to kill the player, but if the opportunity presents itself a smart team will drag your Pet around a pillar and kill it before you can blink.
And that's why your Pet is dying in the Arena. Not because of Growl.
Edit: Changed 16% to 18% because I left off the 2% done by Kill Command.
Edited, May 13th 2008 9:56pm by Kompera
Kompera:
I had this hugely long answer to you, complete with numbers and reasons but I cleared it to keep it simple.
Respec MM/SV. Join the Arena in 5v5, get a reasonable amount of arena gear. Live longer than 30 seconds. Go MAX dps during your lifespan, to hell with mana consumption. Then compare your damage numbers versus your pets. You'll find that it is likely less than 10% and in many, if not most, occasions less than 5% of your 'damage'.
I'll let you argue with Recount, not me. You're smart enough to figure out why the theorycraft flies out the window.
(Hint: You might not be the only 'smart' player in the Arena, there might be 9 others with you and 5 of them may have ways to deal with your pet short of killing it!)
(Another Hint: As MM/SV don't expect your pet to be able to COUNTER any of those strategies: our pets don't seem to have any special abilities other than what they come with.)
(P.S. If you don't live longer than 30 seconds, you'll find something else interesting, your pets damage may be 30%-100% of your actual combat total damage which will be pathetic anyway. I'll let you figure out why that is.)
I had this hugely long answer to you, complete with numbers and reasons but I cleared it to keep it simple.
Respec MM/SV. Join the Arena in 5v5, get a reasonable amount of arena gear. Live longer than 30 seconds. Go MAX dps during your lifespan, to hell with mana consumption. Then compare your damage numbers versus your pets. You'll find that it is likely less than 10% and in many, if not most, occasions less than 5% of your 'damage'.
I'll let you argue with Recount, not me. You're smart enough to figure out why the theorycraft flies out the window.
(Hint: You might not be the only 'smart' player in the Arena, there might be 9 others with you and 5 of them may have ways to deal with your pet short of killing it!)
(Another Hint: As MM/SV don't expect your pet to be able to COUNTER any of those strategies: our pets don't seem to have any special abilities other than what they come with.)
(P.S. If you don't live longer than 30 seconds, you'll find something else interesting, your pets damage may be 30%-100% of your actual combat total damage which will be pathetic anyway. I'll let you figure out why that is.)
Sloshot:
Ok. You've got lots of theorycraft that tells you that your Pet is insignificant in Arenas. Great.
So, why does the other side bother killing your Pet?
Why would a cohesive team of cluefull players bother with an insignificant gnat such as your Pet? Why would they even bother with targeting and focus slaying in 1-2 second the thing that is of no threat to them?
Clueless teams can't kill your Pet, because they suck so much they can't get enough focus fire on it before your team rolls over them. So your Pet isn't dying to noobs. It is the good teams who are killing your Pet. And they don't do so because you feel that your Pet is useless to you in Arena battles.
So I'll leave it to you and your theorycraft to figure out why your Pet is dying in Arenas.
Hint: It's not because you forgot to turn Growl off.
Ok. You've got lots of theorycraft that tells you that your Pet is insignificant in Arenas. Great.
So, why does the other side bother killing your Pet?
Why would a cohesive team of cluefull players bother with an insignificant gnat such as your Pet? Why would they even bother with targeting and focus slaying in 1-2 second the thing that is of no threat to them?
Clueless teams can't kill your Pet, because they suck so much they can't get enough focus fire on it before your team rolls over them. So your Pet isn't dying to noobs. It is the good teams who are killing your Pet. And they don't do so because you feel that your Pet is useless to you in Arena battles.
So I'll leave it to you and your theorycraft to figure out why your Pet is dying in Arenas.
Hint: It's not because you forgot to turn Growl off.
Well, we'll have to disagree on targeting logic then.
If your team focuses on an MM hunters pet to reduce less than 10% of the damage that a hunter deals, in exchange for the damage you have to do to kill that pet, you fail in basic math and risk vs. reward concepts in my opinion. A BM hunter's pet is an entirely different matter in PvP and if you don't know the difference, you need to do Arena more.
The damage done to an MM pet would be better spent on killing a healer, and if the healer is already dead, killing the Hunter as that would elminate the 90% dps from the Hunter AND the 10% dps from the pet and take 5 seconds longer than downing the pet. Why waste fire on a weak attacker that has no special abilities and is totally vulnerable to a dozen other forms of control? This is probably why my pet lives 9 times out of 10 matches a week, not because I just happened to hit a streak of going against a team that hates pets.
What may be true is that my team sucks so bad that killing the pet is just additional insult to injury, however that does not apply against the total of my Arena experience. We've played against great teams and they kill us all in less than 30 seconds, my pet never has a chance to die they just kill me. So I can't agree that it's a good practice to target the pet, I've never seen a team do it even once.
However, it still does not invalidate the original test, and why this whole thread exists. If I leave growl on, my pet dies more often than with it off. It might be coincidental, it might not be. There might be a psychological aspect to that roaring critter ripping away next to a player and there might not be. I don't know.
My team cannot leverage any advantage if it exists anyway. Hell, we can't even target the same target effectively so we fail in Arena 101. I have no way to prove anything, I was just pointing out the oddity of it all.
If anyone else wants to give it a whirl for yucks and chuckles let me know. I'll play with it some more and see.
If your team focuses on an MM hunters pet to reduce less than 10% of the damage that a hunter deals, in exchange for the damage you have to do to kill that pet, you fail in basic math and risk vs. reward concepts in my opinion. A BM hunter's pet is an entirely different matter in PvP and if you don't know the difference, you need to do Arena more.
The damage done to an MM pet would be better spent on killing a healer, and if the healer is already dead, killing the Hunter as that would elminate the 90% dps from the Hunter AND the 10% dps from the pet and take 5 seconds longer than downing the pet. Why waste fire on a weak attacker that has no special abilities and is totally vulnerable to a dozen other forms of control? This is probably why my pet lives 9 times out of 10 matches a week, not because I just happened to hit a streak of going against a team that hates pets.
What may be true is that my team sucks so bad that killing the pet is just additional insult to injury, however that does not apply against the total of my Arena experience. We've played against great teams and they kill us all in less than 30 seconds, my pet never has a chance to die they just kill me. So I can't agree that it's a good practice to target the pet, I've never seen a team do it even once.
However, it still does not invalidate the original test, and why this whole thread exists. If I leave growl on, my pet dies more often than with it off. It might be coincidental, it might not be. There might be a psychological aspect to that roaring critter ripping away next to a player and there might not be. I don't know.
My team cannot leverage any advantage if it exists anyway. Hell, we can't even target the same target effectively so we fail in Arena 101. I have no way to prove anything, I was just pointing out the oddity of it all.
If anyone else wants to give it a whirl for yucks and chuckles let me know. I'll play with it some more and see.
Run some more tests please. It sounds most likely to be coincidence rather than sort of cause and effect. I expect the coincidental link you're seeing between growl and pet death will disappear with more testing.
< does the Boogie with Stu >
Edited, May 16th 2008 12:00pm by ItsaGaAs
< does the Boogie with Stu >
Edited, May 16th 2008 12:00pm by ItsaGaAs
Recent Visitors: 106
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (106)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Anecdotal, Stupid, Inane... but true? Growl in PvP.
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC