Pulling max threat:
One mob: starfire, shift to bear, FFF, Mangle.
Two mobs: starfire the second kill target, while you're casting switch to the first. As your starfire is cast on the 2nd, moonfire the first and get into bear (helps if you have bearform hotkeyed here). Proceed to build threat like above.
Multiple mobs: Hurricane from max distance, the furthest side of the hurricane should be cast on the closest mob so they all run through it. Get into bear, demo roar, and start swiping. Mangle the first kill target.
Skill rotations:
One mob, limited rage: mangle, 3xlacerate, repeat.
One mob, unlimited rage: mangle, 3x lacerate, always queue maul.
Multiple mobs: try to sort of get some hits in on all and keep switching, for example :
mangle mob 1, maul mob 2, lacerate mob 3
maul mob 3, mangle mob 2, lacerate mob 1
and so on, and swipe every now and then (remember that turning your bear butt towards CCed targets will allow you to swipe to your heart's content !)
That's what I do, anyway.
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Tanking and Aggro: What's Best?Follow
this is a helpful thread... (now to intrude)
I just did ramparts for my first OL instance and my first tanking instance (probably 4th or 5th instance ever as a 60 feral druid.) Was myself and 2 rogues and 2 priests, yes it was horrible and very chaotic. I have since spent a bit of time over the past 2 days reading up on how to tank and hold aggro. I've learned some stuff but was wondering how to do it without Lacerate, but this thread would lead me to believe lacerate might not be that important.
On the instance after the 3rd group of mobs there was a group adjustment and we got 2 warriors (63 and 60), myself, a priest and a rogue and we tore through it. a short instance, but man for a first tank with the initial group it sucked. I told a warrior friend about it and he laughed at me saying there was no way I could have hoped to hold aggro against 2 rogues and 2 priests.
So to stick with the topic of the thread, in an instance where you are pulling 2-5 mobs, is it best just to mangle, swipe, tab swipe, tab swipe and soon to hold aggro?
I am new to tanking and have pretty much just quested my way up so far. I want to learn but don't want to kill a bunch of people in doing so... I am sure there is a strong trial and error, but having a good knowledge base as a foundation will be helpful. - Thanks
Edited, May 20th 2008 11:33am by SumDuud
I just did ramparts for my first OL instance and my first tanking instance (probably 4th or 5th instance ever as a 60 feral druid.) Was myself and 2 rogues and 2 priests, yes it was horrible and very chaotic. I have since spent a bit of time over the past 2 days reading up on how to tank and hold aggro. I've learned some stuff but was wondering how to do it without Lacerate, but this thread would lead me to believe lacerate might not be that important.
On the instance after the 3rd group of mobs there was a group adjustment and we got 2 warriors (63 and 60), myself, a priest and a rogue and we tore through it. a short instance, but man for a first tank with the initial group it sucked. I told a warrior friend about it and he laughed at me saying there was no way I could have hoped to hold aggro against 2 rogues and 2 priests.
So to stick with the topic of the thread, in an instance where you are pulling 2-5 mobs, is it best just to mangle, swipe, tab swipe, tab swipe and soon to hold aggro?
I am new to tanking and have pretty much just quested my way up so far. I want to learn but don't want to kill a bunch of people in doing so... I am sure there is a strong trial and error, but having a good knowledge base as a foundation will be helpful. - Thanks
Edited, May 20th 2008 11:33am by SumDuud
"Tab swipe" is unnecessary since swipe already hits multiple targets.
If you don't have lacerate yet, I would divide mangles and mauls across mobs.
Mangle the first mob that won't be hit, maul and auto-attack the second, then swipe a bit (depending on rage).
The occasional maul on targets that are not being hit should be enough to prevent healer aggro, though it might be hard to keep aggro against things like a shadow priest with imp. vampiric embrace tearing it up meanwhile. The mob that is being focused upon should be eating your mangle and auto-attacks. Be ready to bash if he goes running for someone else (so you can build up some threat), or taunt (as a real last resort).
As long as your party is attacking the same mob (mark up every pull) it shouldn't be terribly hard to get a feeling for aggro on the mobs, though practice will be required :-)
Good luck !
If you don't have lacerate yet, I would divide mangles and mauls across mobs.
Mangle the first mob that won't be hit, maul and auto-attack the second, then swipe a bit (depending on rage).
The occasional maul on targets that are not being hit should be enough to prevent healer aggro, though it might be hard to keep aggro against things like a shadow priest with imp. vampiric embrace tearing it up meanwhile. The mob that is being focused upon should be eating your mangle and auto-attacks. Be ready to bash if he goes running for someone else (so you can build up some threat), or taunt (as a real last resort).
As long as your party is attacking the same mob (mark up every pull) it shouldn't be terribly hard to get a feeling for aggro on the mobs, though practice will be required :-)
Good luck !
This has turned into quite the detailed discussion! I am surprised, I don't typically have threads that last this long above sub-default.
I would like to thank all you seasoned druids for your informative replies and the sharing of your expertise on this matter.
I would like to thank all you seasoned druids for your informative replies and the sharing of your expertise on this matter.
Tab + Swipe helps when there's more than 3 targets so everyone will (hopefully) eat a couple swipes. IE, Mangle, Swipe, Tab, Swipe, Tab, Swipe, click Skull, Mangle...
As for pulling, given the lack of a threat modifier on caster-form spells, I'd rather have 40 rage (Furor + Intensity) and pull with FFF. That way I have enough rage to Mangle + Swipe x2 in the first couple seconds of a pull. You can almost do this with spell-pulls, but you either have to cut Enrage short or tank for a few seconds with an armor penalty. Needing more up-front heals kinda defeats the purpose of getting a head-start on threat.
As for pulling, given the lack of a threat modifier on caster-form spells, I'd rather have 40 rage (Furor + Intensity) and pull with FFF. That way I have enough rage to Mangle + Swipe x2 in the first couple seconds of a pull. You can almost do this with spell-pulls, but you either have to cut Enrage short or tank for a few seconds with an armor penalty. Needing more up-front heals kinda defeats the purpose of getting a head-start on threat.
deleted
Edited, Aug 27th 2008 12:41am by kawainui
Edited, Aug 27th 2008 12:41am by kawainui
dotorion wrote:
Pulling max threat:
One mob: starfire, shift to bear, FFF, Mangle.
Two mobs: starfire the second kill target, while you're casting switch to the first. As your starfire is cast on the 2nd, moonfire the first and get into bear (helps if you have bearform hotkeyed here). Proceed to build threat like above.
One mob: starfire, shift to bear, FFF, Mangle.
Two mobs: starfire the second kill target, while you're casting switch to the first. As your starfire is cast on the 2nd, moonfire the first and get into bear (helps if you have bearform hotkeyed here). Proceed to build threat like above.
Me too, kinda. I usually FFF pull, but when I feel the need to do magic-assisted pulls for whatever reason, I also use Starfire when I'll be focused on one non-cc'd mob, but Wrath when I'm going to be holding/tanking two.
A little less damage but thanks to Wrath's "flight time" you can fire off Moonfire exactly when your Wrath hits--with both mobs at full range. That gives you plenty of time to pop into bear form for your furor rage, demo roar them on the way in, get your Faerie Fire's on one of them, and get to work.
If you starfire the first mob, he and his buddy are well on their way to your leather-clad *** by the time GCD expires for you to Moonfire, and they're pretty much on TOP of you as (or before) you pop into bear form.
Your GCD from starfire is over long before the cast is, so what i do is i starfire kill target 2, target kill target 1 and hit moonfire the same instant starfire hits. Not only does it look cool, but you also have initial agro on both targets as well as having targeted the right mob for primary tanking.
Edited, May 21st 2008 9:17am by DKDruid
Edited, May 21st 2008 9:17am by DKDruid
DKDruid wrote:
Your GCD from starfire is over long before the cast is, so what i do is i starfire kill target 2, target kill target 1 and hit moonfire the same instant starfire hits. Not only does it look cool, but you also have initial agro on both targets as well as having targeted the right mob for primary tanking.
Yeah, we're talking about exactly the same general idea of pissing off two mobs at once with spell damage...I was just sayin' I use Wrath on kill target 2 for what I now recognize to be the non-exclusive coolness of a simultaneous hit of Moonfire on kill target 1. My bad on that, you're right of course...for practical purposes anyway. Starfire and hit don't hit AS simultaneously as Wrath and Moonfire, but its close e-damn-nough. : ) I got into that Wrath + as-it-hits Moonfire opener on my lowbie druid alt that I'm leveling balance...clearly I sux at da casting.
Edited, May 21st 2008 2:03am by JeeBar
Ah yes, when tanking more than three targets tab swiping does help.
With spell pulling, I also get that same 40 rage as I shift into bearform before the mobs hit me, so I don't exactly get your point.
I got in extra threat before the mobs even reached me, on top of FFF and whatever skills I get off with the 40 rage from furor and intensity.
@JeeBar: Like DKDruid said, the GCD isn't a problem since starfire is a very long cast.
With spell pulling, I also get that same 40 rage as I shift into bearform before the mobs hit me, so I don't exactly get your point.
I got in extra threat before the mobs even reached me, on top of FFF and whatever skills I get off with the 40 rage from furor and intensity.
@JeeBar: Like DKDruid said, the GCD isn't a problem since starfire is a very long cast.
dotorion wrote:
Ah yes, when tanking more than three targets tab swiping does help.
With spell pulling, I also get that same 40 rage as I shift into bearform before the mobs hit me, so I don't exactly get your point.
I got in extra threat before the mobs even reached me, on top of FFF and whatever skills I get off with the 40 rage from furor and intensity.
@JeeBar: Like DKDruid said, the GCD isn't a problem since starfire is a very long cast.
With spell pulling, I also get that same 40 rage as I shift into bearform before the mobs hit me, so I don't exactly get your point.
I got in extra threat before the mobs even reached me, on top of FFF and whatever skills I get off with the 40 rage from furor and intensity.
@JeeBar: Like DKDruid said, the GCD isn't a problem since starfire is a very long cast.
You dont get 40 rage from furor you get 10 + intensity = 20 instant rage only when enrage is up anyway..
But what serious tanking druid spends 3 points on intensity?
Edited, May 21st 2008 4:13am by notinterested
40 = 10 from Furor + 10 from intensity and 20 from Enrage.
(sorry, should have clarified that)
I think Intensity is definitly worth it.
It gives you 10 rage up front from enrage, and then 20 more over time.
If you don't have intensity, that same 10 rage takes 5 seconds to trickle into your rage bar, and you only get 20 total rage instead of 30 total rage from using Enrage.
Also remember that rage gains also generate aggro, so it's a teensy bit more aggro generated.
Edited, May 21st 2008 5:42am by dotorion
Edited, May 21st 2008 5:42am by dotorion
(sorry, should have clarified that)
I think Intensity is definitly worth it.
It gives you 10 rage up front from enrage, and then 20 more over time.
If you don't have intensity, that same 10 rage takes 5 seconds to trickle into your rage bar, and you only get 20 total rage instead of 30 total rage from using Enrage.
Also remember that rage gains also generate aggro, so it's a teensy bit more aggro generated.
Edited, May 21st 2008 5:42am by dotorion
Edited, May 21st 2008 5:42am by dotorion
I've always had 3/3 intensity. The only time you ever need rage in a fight is just on the pull, and that extra bit of rage makes it so much easier to get initial agro, even if the first mangle gets parried or something. It means i can spam more abilities at the start of the fight.
Notinterested wrote:
But what serious tanking druid spends 3 points on intensity?
DKDruid wrote:
I've always had 3/3 intensity. The only time you ever need rage in a fight is just on the pull, and that extra bit of rage makes it so much easier to get initial agro, even if the first mangle gets parried or something. It means i can spam more abilities at the start of the fight.
QFT. And when in doubt, armory your friendly neighborhood Rarebeast:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Spirestone&n=Rarebeast
Wump there it is: 3/3 pretty serious tanking druids with 3/3 intensity. Rawr.
In all fairness to your question/point, though, even though I think the answer is "Most of them," I've gone back and forth about its value myself. In most situations Intensity feels less important now that I run with more regular groups that are better about letting me build aggro and sticking to kill order. It's always valuable in PUGs though.
On the other hand, as my guild encounters more badass badguys (heroics and Kara), even with a known group the ability to lock a mob on to me very quickly so DPS can open up their cans of whoopass is huge. I've decided that I care more about our success in these scenarios, so kept my Intensity.
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Edited, Aug 27th 2008 12:41am by kawainui
Edited, Aug 27th 2008 12:41am by kawainui
JeeBar wrote:
Notinterested wrote:
But what serious tanking druid spends 3 points on intensity?
DKDruid wrote:
I've always had 3/3 intensity. The only time you ever need rage in a fight is just on the pull, and that extra bit of rage makes it so much easier to get initial agro, even if the first mangle gets parried or something. It means i can spam more abilities at the start of the fight.
QFT. And when in doubt, armory your friendly neighborhood Rarebeast:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Spirestone&n=Rarebeast
Wump there it is: 3/3 pretty serious tanking druids with 3/3 intensity. Rawr.
In all fairness to your question/point, though, even though I think the answer is "Most of them," I've gone back and forth about its value myself. In most situations Intensity feels less important now that I run with more regular groups that are better about letting me build aggro and sticking to kill order. It's always valuable in PUGs though.
Im sorry but i guess i dont get the significance of the specc of rarebeast.
Intensity is a waste of 3 points unless all you do is PuGs.
JeeBar wrote:
On the other hand, as my guild encounters more badass badguys (heroics and Kara), even with a known group the ability to lock a mob on to me very quickly so DPS can open up their cans of whoopass is huge. I've decided that I care more about our success in these scenarios, so kept my Intensity.
The opposite is true really.
You will find quickly as you and your guild get into the harder content this talent will become more and more of a waste. Keeping your rage up will become less and less of an issue the more your progress.
Now if you find yourself offtanking and shifting in and out of bear form alot this talent has some value to it, but even clearing kara trash for example by the time you get the first mangle and lacerate off youll usually bet at half rage by then.
Really unless the rest of the group/raid is geared a hell of alot better than you grabbing that initial aggro should not be a real issue.
I originally took Intensity because I liked being a "proper" druid and being able to heal well when needed. Recently I respecced to try without it and found it VERY hard to get used to not having it. In multi mob pulls, I go to break the sheep and find myself with no rage. DPS of course wait for me to hit enrage and build up rage - they see me next to the mob and open up with all guns. So it is a very nice talent for tanking. If you haven't used it, then you probably won't see the benefit as you have adapted automatically to life without it, but I find it too hard to live without it now. What you say in regard to it becoming less and less useful as the guild progresses (I tanked Hydross in Nature phase last night for our first downing) is very true, but I also need another 500 or so badges just for feral gear, so PUG heroics, Karas' & ZA's are also well and truly on the agenda so I am doing a wide range of tanking duties.
I installed the latest powershifting macros last night and will be moitoring my mana usage carefully. Intensity will likely become more important to me and I may have to find points for natural shapeshifter somewhere as well :(
As far as the whole Brutal Impact/Primal Tenacity question goes, while PT does have some use in PvE, I still see it as primarily a PvP talent so I don't worry too much with it. I still try and do the daily quests regularly and the extra stun time on my pounce is built into my soloing technique. Having said that, I will probably be putting all 3 points I have in those talents into Nat Shapeshifter soon anyway and spending more time doing dailies & farming on my hunter, mage or shadow priest as they still need the SSO rep.
I installed the latest powershifting macros last night and will be moitoring my mana usage carefully. Intensity will likely become more important to me and I may have to find points for natural shapeshifter somewhere as well :(
As far as the whole Brutal Impact/Primal Tenacity question goes, while PT does have some use in PvE, I still see it as primarily a PvP talent so I don't worry too much with it. I still try and do the daily quests regularly and the extra stun time on my pounce is built into my soloing technique. Having said that, I will probably be putting all 3 points I have in those talents into Nat Shapeshifter soon anyway and spending more time doing dailies & farming on my hunter, mage or shadow priest as they still need the SSO rep.
notinterested wrote:
Im sorry but i guess i dont get the significance of the specc of rarebeast.
Understandable. I probably shouldn't have brought him into it...I just find him to be a bit of a badass. <kissass>Long track record of posting great druidic info and advice here, always full of of smarts and insight.</kissass> Welcome to the board, by the way. I already get the feeling that as I see more of your thoughts on stuff (and your toon's armory page) I'll trust you too and start using your druid as a benchmark/goal too.
One last point on the "who has it" front...based on in-game inspections of high-end feral druids I see a lot of them--the majority I'd say--with Intensity maxed out. No I wouldn't jump off a bridge if they did, but it saves me work to follow the lead of people who've put a lot more time into their toons than I have. I'll start paying more attention to that particular talent, as I honestly thought it was just generally accepted that Intensity = goodness for furball tanks.
notinterested wrote:
Now if you find yourself offtanking and shifting in and out of bear form alot this talent has some value to it, but even clearing kara trash for example by the time you get the first mangle and lacerate off youll usually bet at half rage by then.
Maybe that was another key piece of info...my happy place is as OT, so I do a lot of emergency tanking when CC goes bad or MT needs a break. I find that getting rage up quickly when I'm not the one getting hit is key.
0/44/11+6, what's left to spend points on? NI, Brutal Impact, Primal Tenacity, Natural Shapeshifter, and Intensity. For PvE Feral, NI only recently became useful, stuns have (very) limited use in raids, mob stuns and fears are rare, cheaper shifting doesn't apply to tanking (but does help with powershifting), and Intensity gives emergency Rage if you're rage-starved and at the beginning of a pull.
There's a reason Intensity is part of the +6 and not a core feral PvE talent; it's situationally useful.
There's a reason Intensity is part of the +6 and not a core feral PvE talent; it's situationally useful.
To each his own i suppose, I see what you guys mean about intensity coming in handy however there are so many other ways to help with the initial aggro pull without spending 3 talent points. But then again druids are fairly lucky as we have leftover talents after we get the "essential" ones that things like this come down to preference, playstyle and content.
I will say i personally love primal tenacity. The only time i have trouble with aggro are those rare pulls where i get stunned right off the bat (Dont happen alot but enough to be annoying) and seeing the occasional resist is helpfull. Also encounters like nightbane it is very nice when he does his AOE fear and i resist it and am able to continue building threat.
Brutal impact is one that used to be in my "must have" list but as i have progressed more and more mobs become immune to stun altogether making this one pretty useless for tanking.
I will say i personally love primal tenacity. The only time i have trouble with aggro are those rare pulls where i get stunned right off the bat (Dont happen alot but enough to be annoying) and seeing the occasional resist is helpfull. Also encounters like nightbane it is very nice when he does his AOE fear and i resist it and am able to continue building threat.
Brutal impact is one that used to be in my "must have" list but as i have progressed more and more mobs become immune to stun altogether making this one pretty useless for tanking.
Probably took Brutal Impact for the ease of grinding.
Mobs can die before your Pounce is over with that talent.
Mobs can die before your Pounce is over with that talent.
deleted
Edited, Aug 27th 2008 12:40am by kawainui
Edited, Aug 27th 2008 12:40am by kawainui
Yeah, the 0/44/11+6 covers tanking and DPS talents. You can shave a few points by dropping Shredding Attacks and Savage Fury, but for soloing and raiding, you get use out of both talents.
For raiding, savage fury is only a slight buff to DPS (mangle accounts for 10% of our DPS) and only if you don't have another druid applying it for you.
Shredding attacks on the other hand is a massive buff to our DPS. I cry every time I see a raiding druid without it (included 2 in my guild who I had to sort out). If you raid, then the talent is up to you (i'd still take it though) but please be careful where you mention not having it - there are young impressionable minds around!
Shredding attacks on the other hand is a massive buff to our DPS. I cry every time I see a raiding druid without it (included 2 in my guild who I had to sort out). If you raid, then the talent is up to you (i'd still take it though) but please be careful where you mention not having it - there are young impressionable minds around!
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