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#1 May 09 2008 at 2:02 AM Rating: Excellent
Yes another rate my gear, check my spec, give me tips thread.

However, this situation is a bit different from the usually "what do I need to get Kara-ready" post. If you like theorycraft, or if you have ideas of how I can improve, please give me tips.

The situation: I have a rather well geared hunter which is my main char. Currently we are progressing through the Sunwell raid instance (although rather slowly). The rest is on farm. Thus nearly every item from Mount Hyjal and Black Tempel is available for me (cursed vision of sargeras is a bit hard to get as our rogues still like to have one or two). SSC and TK loot is not obtainable (as we do not raid those instances anymore).
I can do both Zul Aman and Karazhan every week.

Why do I need help?
Well we finally managed to kill Kalecgos (actually two times now) and we are preparing for the ultimate DPS check which is Brutallus. We basically need 28k raid dps to beat that boss (10 million hp in 6 minutes).
We still need to gear up a bit for that fight and thus I have thought that maximizing my DPS contribution is crucial for that fight.
Overall I'm doing rather well in terms of DPS, but I'm not a strong theorycrafter and I'm sure there are some things out there I am not aware of.

So, this is all about maximizing my DPS in the Brutallus fight.
I will most likely play a SV spec as I have the best gear for that spec among our hunters. However you might convince me to spec BM or anything else, I'm open and willing to respec.
I will be grouped with a feral druid, 1 or 2 other hunters and a resto shaman.
We have a ret pally for that fight, and I want to chain pot haste pots (if I can sustain my mana consumption).

Here is my armory. It shows me in my standard raid gear.
The epic gem vendor will be available tomorrow and I have enough badges to buy the badge crossbow and ~10-15gems (and I'll of course replace all 8agi gems with 10agi gems). So this is an option (although I don't really knoe whether I should buy that crossbow, help me on this decission).

So, please feel free to give advice.
My goal is to break 2k DPS on that fight, please help me to achieve it.
#2 May 09 2008 at 3:27 AM Rating: Decent
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TKA is --> that way.
You'll find way more help there... there's enough people who have downed Brut over there.
Not so much here.
#3 May 09 2008 at 4:23 AM Rating: Excellent
Pah, I feel much more comfortable around here, though I also lurk at TKA.
And to give me advice once does not need to have killed that guy, it is enough to be better at theorycraft than I am (and that is not hard at all).
Also it might be interesting to have some others comment on where they think I can improve my gear, spec and shot rotation.
I hope this gives me some ideas on which things I have to work.

And I was a bit tired of all those "can I go Kara with my equip" posts, so I thought upping this by a few raid tiers might make things more interesting.
#4 May 09 2008 at 5:07 AM Rating: Good
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Aethien wrote:
TKA is --> that way.
You'll find way more help there... there's enough people who have downed Brut over there.
Not so much here.


This.

Even if you don't want/need Brutallus advice, if you want info on gear/spec/shot rotation, considering your current level of play, Aethien is right.

And if you want that info, we need more than your armory--we need WWS reports!

If you refuse to go to TKA, all I can say is your gear looks great, but I have no idea what I'm talking about. Some folks (Cheeky in particular) aren't big fans of DST; what do you have instead? Berserker's Call off of Zul'Jin might be worth looking into.

Post WWS reports... but not here. Take them to TKA.
#5 May 09 2008 at 6:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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The question of whether to go SV or BM depends on your raid makeup. How many melee dps + hunters do you have. If it's too low you'll be better off as BM, otherwise SV will boost the raid enough to make it worthwhile (tka will be able to tell you). The badge crossbow is quite a bit better. If you can get a decent amount of haste, it would probably be good to pick up a 3.0 bow though. It really depends at what speed you can maintain your shot rotation. If the 2.8 bow is too fast then there's no point in using it despite it being a better weapon.
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#6 May 09 2008 at 7:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jup indeed, feed us a bunch of WWS reports :)
And i do think that experience with the fight is of major importance to how much dps you can do.

Seeing as how Lactose and Fritti are in the top ~100 guilds in the world (lactose even in the nr 12! :O ) and there are many others there that have killed Brutallus.

I mean I'd love to help you but i have no clue as to how that fight looks and feels, what you can and cannot do etc.

As far as i can say now, all advice i can give you is bring haste pots, keep your dst and try to stay hasted throughout the entire fight with a 3:2 macro.
Speccing either 5/20/36 or 0/20/41 (depending on wether you prefer AotH or an extra RF)

edit: although i remember now that you dont get (multiple) Heroisms, so this might prove to be impossible.
In wich case the DST is mostly worthless and you'd be best off specced 0/20/41 for 4 rapid fires with haste pots in between.

0.00 RF > 0.15
0.00 on use trinket (if you use one)
0.00 Readiness
0.15 RF > 0.30
0.30 Haste Pot > 0.45
(2.00 on use trinket)
2.30 haste pot > 2.45
3.15 RF > 3.30
(4.00 on use trinket)
4.30 Haste Pot > 4.45
5.00 readiness
5.00 RF > 5.15

A total of 7 x 15 = 1 min 45 seconds out of a 6 minute fight on loads of haste.
Heroism could fill the gaps here and basically boost you to fulltime high haste, resulting in insane Dps from SV hunters (and even more from BM)

Edit 2: Having 4pc T6 is also very important (cant be ***** to actually check your armory :P).
Without that bonus, using 3:2 is not worth it.
The trinket from exalted Ashtongue is also needed.

And i forgot that before, we also need the exact raidcomposition you have :P
(at least the parts that affect you).

Edited, May 9th 2008 6:23pm by Aethien

Edited, May 9th 2008 6:27pm by Aethien
#7 May 09 2008 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
K, there we go. I knew you would come up with some things.
It is not that I do not want to go to TKA, but I feel there are a lot of things you can help me with and I do not need to bother the guys at TKA with.
When we had some practice on Brutallus and I have open questions for the fight mechanics, I will go to TKA, but until then, you guys are more then compentent to answer my questions.

1) WWS logs. Those I can not disclose. My raid group keeps them private and as I do not have the raw data I cannot anonymize them. Furthermore WWS was down (or really laggy) pretty much during the last weeks, thus my newest WWS data is three weeks old and shows me in some different gear and setup.
We had a wierd Hyjal alt run yesterday. In that I had for some time a feral druid and TSA (yes raiding with MM hunters is wierd, but hey it was an alt run with a T4 geared MM hunter in my group). I might get my hands on a WWS log of that run, but I'm not sure that will happen.

2) I'll try both 5/20/36 and 0/20/41 specs. Normally I like 5/20/36 better, but that extra rapid fire can be worth it, thus I want to give it a try.

3) Raid composition I already stated. I'll have feral druid, resto schami and 1-2 hunter in my group. I expect to be SV and the other hunter(s) will likely be BM specced (cookie cutter of course). We will have a ret pally in the raid and I'll have 3 pally blessings (perhaps 4, but that is not the preferred setup).

4) Raid setup for melees + hunters: We'll have 2 rogues, 1 fury warrior, 1 enh schami, 2-3 hunters and perhaps a arms warrior. Tanks will be a warrior and a druid. Thus a SV hunter will buff 7 melees + 2 tanks. Raid buffed I have ~1250agi, thus providing a 312ap expose weekness debuff which should be better than all hunters speccing BM.

5) Who gets the heroism is not clear as off now (that will depend on which of our DD groups performs best, has the mana for it and is not threat capped). However I do not expect to get more than one which leaves quite some unhasted time.

This should answer your questions. Now I have to ask a bit more about the DST. Until now I kinda like it, the haste is not reliable, but when it proccs it adds nice damage (though it is overkill when it procs when I'm already under haste).
Should I not use DST because I will run with hast a lot?
As for trinkets I have:
- DST
- Alchemist trinket (108AP, +40% on potions which I will not need)
- Ashtongue talisman
- The heroic badge trinket (damn ZA, no luck there until now)

I might farm Berserkers call or I might bid dkp on the Illidari Council one (drops quite frequent for us, but until now I give the rogues, warriors 1st dibs on that one).

Aethien recommends me keeping the DST and equipping the Ashtongue Talisman as seconds trinket (which I planned to do since I'll have a lot of Steadies in those 6minutes).

I never did my shot rotation with a macro, but if you guys recommend the 3:2 macro, I'll try it on some farm content and see which results I get.

I have the 4pc T6 bonus, thus steady spam is the way to go Aethien?
As I read about this on TKA I tried to manually time a Steady-Spam but I think that did not work very well.
I clipped a lot (which obviously is ok), but I did not see my dps change very much when compared with a normal auto-steady rotation with arcane now and then (which is a 1:1.5 rotation?)
#8 May 09 2008 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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The great thing about the 3:2 macro is its fantastic compatibility with haste, it adapts itself from a 3:2 to a 2:1 to 4:3 to 7:6 to 1:1 to whatever else you can think of basically.

And since hunters are virtually never threatcapped, they are in my opinion the best targets for (multiple) heroisms.

Also, could you ask whoever is in chanrge of the WWS if he can get you the anonymous versions or however that works?
Its really the best (and only truly reliable) way to improve your dps.
#9 May 09 2008 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
Aethien wrote:
The great thing about the 3:2 macro is its fantastic compatibility with haste, it adapts itself from a 3:2 to a 2:1 to 4:3 to 7:6 to 1:1 to whatever else you can think of basically.


You got me. I'll try it.

Aethien wrote:
And since hunters are virtually never threatcapped, they are in my opinion the best targets for (multiple) heroisms.

We have a tradition of boosting the caster or the melee dps group. We'll see if I can break that. However, I'll have to do insane DPS to get my multi-heroism package (and here you'll help me I'm sure of it).

Aethien wrote:
Also, could you ask whoever is in chanrge of the WWS if he can get you the anonymous versions or however that works?
Its really the best (and only truly reliable) way to improve your dps.

I already did that, the old reports (> 3 weeks old do not show my current gear and the original logs are already deleted, so no anonymous reports for those runs).
Currently the person collection the logs has some technical issues with them and WWS, so I have no current logs.
However as you'll not stop ******** about them, I will collect my own logs :-)
I hope I can deliver some logs of our raids on Sunday or Monday.
#10 May 09 2008 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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WE NEED LOGS!!! Smiley: lol

There is a window where you can maintain a 3:2 rotation that is worse dps then the 1:1 is. Be warned.

edit: could you post some WWS logs? Smiley: cool

Also some Wow web stats from your recent raids would be nice Smiley: nod

Edited, May 9th 2008 1:58pm by Xsarus
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#11 May 09 2008 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Xsarus you're an ***.







I like you :P



Oh and This.
You can see the WWS yourself i assume, so you can help yourself further :)
(gogo cheeky! I think he even has plans to make an improved WWS himself because he's not satisfied with the info WWS gives XD)
#12 May 09 2008 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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Mulgrin wrote:
Currently the person collection the logs has some technical issues with them and WWS, so I have no current logs.

WWS was unable to generate reports for about 5 days over the past weekend and a few days into the week. They have corrected their issue. And if you like to read flames, their forums on the subject is a cornucopia of flamefest fun.
#13 May 09 2008 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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The flaming is mostly because people pay for WWS and the owner didnt say anything about the problem whatsoever.

It pissed quite a few people off.
#14 May 09 2008 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
Ok, I have a log, but it won't help very much as it is a 10man raid with a stacked caster DPS group.
The log is the ZA speedrun we did today (which got me a shiny new mount *giggles*).

I tried the 3:2 rotation pretty much of the time, and I'm not that impressed. I think I would have done better or at least the same damage by just doing a hand timed 1:1.5.

The raid however is not a very good example since I was the only melee DPS and we had a feral druid and a prot pally tanking (thus next to no armor reducing debuffs on the mobs).

Group composition:

Grp 1:
holy pally
resto druid
prot pally
feral druid
me

Grp 2:
shadow priest
ele shaman
mage
mage
lock

During Boss 3 my pet died. Since we had not very much time left, I decided to leave it dead till after the speedrun.
After Boss 4 we invited a few alts and group composition changed a bit (and things got messy against Zul Jin).

Enough preamble. Here is the log: ZA Speedrun.
I'm "Europa" obviously, since this is the only hunter.
I think for no heroism and armor reducing stuff and things alike I did ok, but I surely can improve on the rotation.
#15 May 09 2008 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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It's German.... OH SHI~!

edit: what you used wasnt a 3:2 by the way, more like a somewhat 1.5:1....
When you use 3:2 dont shoot arcanes or multi's, it screws the rotation :P

This is me using the 3:2 macro wich transformed into a 1:1 whenever IaotH was up (quite a lot :P)
As you can see, I shot 159 steadies and 120 auto's so i end up at roughly a 4:3 rotation.
Also i can see that i missed 0.4% of my autoshots wich is logical because i had a 8.7% chance to hit.
I used Rapid fire twice, BW 3 times (lol pet died when karathress was at 25% so couldnt activate the last one) and Bloodlust Brooch 4 times.

I also was pretty lazy because i only used 1 fel mana pot and had to use viper at the end of the fight.
And i didnt use any haste pots (forgot them ><).



But euhm anyways... I got distracted :P
You can do the same for yourself and check wether your uptime was good/rotation flawless etc etc.



Edited, May 9th 2008 11:21pm by Aethien
#16 May 09 2008 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
Aethien wrote:
It's German.... OH SHI~!


No sh*t :-)

You asked for logs, I had ~30min to spare before the speedrun, that is by far not enough for installing the english language package and testing/updating addons and UI.

A little help for reading this german gibberish:

Automatischer Schuss = Autoshot
Zuverlässiger Schuss = Steady
Arkaner = Arcane
Mehrfach = Multi

Not that hard to understand :-)


Edited, May 9th 2008 11:17pm by Mulgrin
#17 May 09 2008 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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I can read it, it just takes a lot of thought and pain :P
Also, check above ;)
#18 May 09 2008 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
Aethien wrote:
what you used wasnt a 3:2 by the way, more like a somewhat 1.5:1....
When you use 3:2 dont shoot arcanes or multi's, it screws the rotation :P


Count those shots. There are very few.
Usually some specials for misdirection.
During the fight I got distracted now and then and I switched back into my old habits.
Arcane shots I did while I was moving.
Against Hexlord I used Arcane / Multi during the shadow damage phase, you'd never finish a steady then.

The thing which confuses me more is when to really mash the macro. It seems weird at times I had ~4 or 5 steadies in a row without firing a autoshot in between.

Edit:
Lets take Nalorakk as an example:
I did:
2 arcane, 1 multi, 1 aimed, 77 steadies, 44 autoshots
But all in all I still think there was a ton of clipping.
Fight duration was 2min 45seconds. With a unhasted autoshot time of 2.52 I would have fired 65 autoshots.
DST procced 4 times, and I did rapid fire 2 times. This would add additional autoshots.
I understand that using a 3:2 macro, I will clip my autoshot in favor of steady shots. But the cost seems rather high for that boss fight. There must be a way to reduce that clipping somewhat.

Edited, May 9th 2008 11:39pm by Mulgrin
#19 May 09 2008 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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Mulgrin wrote:
The thing which confuses me more is when to really mash the macro. It seems weird at times I had ~4 or 5 steadies in a row without firing a autoshot in between.
Yeah.... thats the KC bug .... It can sometimes lock autoshot out of your rotation.
You should either just remove KC from the macro or make sure it says [exist, target=pettarget, nodead].
That last thing seems to fix the problem.


Edit: I also dont know crap about ZA, my guild runs it on weekends and i'm hardly ever online during weekends.

Edited, May 9th 2008 11:44pm by Aethien
#20 May 09 2008 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
Aethien wrote:
Edit: I also dont know crap about ZA, my guild runs it on weekends and i'm hardly ever online during weekends.


K, I told you that log would not help.

Two things I have learned:
- I'll adjust my macro (I had copied it from your sticky, you probably want to update that part).
- I will bother you with a BT / Hyjal or Sunwell log next time. This show a lot more things.

Since I have learned so much, some info for you:
- ZA is the instance from where you get those ugly bear mounts :-)
- You get 11 badges from that instance. Loot is probably T5 level with some really good items and some really ****** things.
#21 May 09 2008 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I know those things.... -.- I've been there twice or so.
And i thought i already updated the macro in the sticky... oO

This is about as far as i can help though... anything more complicated you'll have to ask cheeky/lactose/FT and the other people at TKA.
(funny fact, neither lactose as one of the leading hunter theorycraftes or Fritti as owner of the best hunter site out there are classleaders in their guild XD)




oh, and rate me up plzkthnx i want a shiny green colour :P
#22 May 09 2008 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
Aethien wrote:
(funny fact, neither lactose as one of the leading hunter theorycraftes or Fritti as owner of the best hunter site out there are classleaders in their guild XD)

Classleader is a thing of pre BC. I don't think that one would need a classleader in 25mans anymore.
We do very well with some officers and nothing more.
And one might think that with all the work those two do outside of their raid that both probably don't want that role as they already have enough to do.


Aethien wrote:
oh, and rate me up plzkthnx i want a shiny green colour :P


Talking about karma? = red arrow :-)
Too bad I already pressed green arrow so often within this thread.
#23 May 09 2008 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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Mulgrin wrote:
Aethien wrote:
oh, and rate me up plzkthnx i want a shiny green colour :P


Talking about karma? = red arrow :-)
Too bad I already pressed green arrow so often within this thread.
Hey I cant get a 10k title anymore, there's got to be something else to aim for right?
(the guy who does them set the max at 50... Kturner is nr 50, and i really wanted my name to be "Aethien, Hunter forum god" or something like that XD)
#24 May 09 2008 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
To bad that your Karma won't move with ~6k posts.
I don't think that 1k rateups would do the job to make you a sage, but hey, green is highly overrated.
#25 May 09 2008 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think 3:2 is good for non-bm hunters. I'm pretty sure you want to stay with your 1:1.5 I've never played SV though.
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#26 May 10 2008 at 2:04 AM Rating: Decent
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The 4pc T6 makes it viable, along with some passive haste and lots of haste effects.
Though it's all fairly new theorycraft.
As far as I know It's been used on Brutallus for the first time(s).
Also, it's especially suited for shorter fights, because you can be hasted for close to the entire fight.



It's also worth checking on the Ashtongue talisman btw, depending on your shotrotation Bloodlust Brooch might just be better -.-
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