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so i was thinking....Follow
8 posts
So i was sitting there thinking if there was a way to out DMG DW WF. So i was thinking if you went this spec 21/40/0. So you would get most of the enhacement spec but wear all ele gear lets say S1 gear. I dont know or have yet to try it but i think a S1 enha shaman geared with ele gear and using FT would out DMG a S1 enha shaman using WF. What do you guys think? I personally think it could work
Quote:
S1 enha shaman geared with ele gear and using FT would out DMG a S1 enha shaman using WF.
Nonononononononononononononononono ******* NO. You get Flametongue to hit for about 20dps more but your melee attacks are doing 400-600dps less.
8 posts
Theres no way it would be that less cuz FT scales with spell dmg so if you have elem gear FT is hitting everytime and criting alot becuz of your spell crit as well. so theres no way it would be a 400-600 dmg less
You're talking about a pseudo-suicide build, which only works a little in BGs.
Straight ele and straight enhance will out-DPS it by tons.
Straight ele and straight enhance will out-DPS it by tons.
Actually Lsfreak is "kinda" right.
While FT (or FB for that matter) does scale up with +Spell, FT in its self does not scale high enough to to make up for WF procs, and its not even by a close margin! I mean think about it...if FT scaled THAT good with spell dmg, wouldn't elem shaman's rely on "meleeing" with FT(FB) instead?! While it DOES do more per hit than compared to the Enh counter part, don't let that be a indicator of "more" dps in game world application.
While I don't have the #'s infront of me atm (@work), I do remember there being a difference of about 400's ish dmg per fight on farm type mobs (obviously research was done will farming with DMmeter and WFfu).
While (DW)FT showed "ok" results with faster weapons (delay 1.5+-), in regards to fight duration time averages being about 1-2 seconds SLOWER than the typical DW WF setup, BUT FT kill times we're "consistant", while WF kill times bounces around from extreemly FAST fights, or the fact that some fights WF never even proc'd! But, the average kill times when complied came out to about a 1 sec difference.
Also take into concideration, that at the time DW WF setup consisted of complete S1, and FT tests was done with partial S1 Elem gear and Kara epics. SO gearing wasn't "bad" for both (Ive played everything thus have epics and experiences in everything in shaman).
If your planning on doing PvP more with a FT setup, your going about it the wrong way.
First of all 21/40/0 specs (or anything with a elem/enh combo is unpopular) is a "nitch" play style to say the least. It pretty much forces you into JUST a BG PvP player...as these specs are typically known as "Suicide" specs. As the name implies you WILL die, hopefully you did enough burst dmg and killed someone before that happens! Suicide specs also mean your dps for PvE (namely raiding) becomes SO unpredictable and nearly impossible to control hate (which is already a problem for Enh specs to begin with), you becomes a detriment to raid groups. Also suicide specs suck at Arena, simply put because you lack any form of survival skills, for yourself and your teammates.
The KEY word I said was BURST! Course PvP PERIOD is based on BURST! And FT and burst is NEVER used in the same sentance!
Which about the only thing 21 elem specs provide is the %5 increase to shock/LB dmg and 100% crit increase to spells, and perhaps even the imp fire tots. Trying to rely on crit/burst dmg from a shock or LB in melee gear, is trying to reply on a event that has a 10%-ish chance to happen, granted a SS+ES crit even in full S1 gear will hit up into the 2k realm, don't think its gonna be happening ALOT!
If you do plan on doing some form of suicide hybrid, I have found "respectable" sucess from mixing 2 S1 enh gear pieces with 2 S1 elem pieces (namely the S1 elem gloves). I find the +35 resil X 2 from the 2 set bonus of each set to be more useful than the 4 set bonus. Also the Elem glove bonus of extended shock range is a 1000 times > than the +% to lightning shield (which is one of the more useless abilities for shaman, especially @ 70).
Edited, May 7th 2008 4:19am by gpyfb
While FT (or FB for that matter) does scale up with +Spell, FT in its self does not scale high enough to to make up for WF procs, and its not even by a close margin! I mean think about it...if FT scaled THAT good with spell dmg, wouldn't elem shaman's rely on "meleeing" with FT(FB) instead?! While it DOES do more per hit than compared to the Enh counter part, don't let that be a indicator of "more" dps in game world application.
While I don't have the #'s infront of me atm (@work), I do remember there being a difference of about 400's ish dmg per fight on farm type mobs (obviously research was done will farming with DMmeter and WFfu).
While (DW)FT showed "ok" results with faster weapons (delay 1.5+-), in regards to fight duration time averages being about 1-2 seconds SLOWER than the typical DW WF setup, BUT FT kill times we're "consistant", while WF kill times bounces around from extreemly FAST fights, or the fact that some fights WF never even proc'd! But, the average kill times when complied came out to about a 1 sec difference.
Also take into concideration, that at the time DW WF setup consisted of complete S1, and FT tests was done with partial S1 Elem gear and Kara epics. SO gearing wasn't "bad" for both (Ive played everything thus have epics and experiences in everything in shaman).
If your planning on doing PvP more with a FT setup, your going about it the wrong way.
First of all 21/40/0 specs (or anything with a elem/enh combo is unpopular) is a "nitch" play style to say the least. It pretty much forces you into JUST a BG PvP player...as these specs are typically known as "Suicide" specs. As the name implies you WILL die, hopefully you did enough burst dmg and killed someone before that happens! Suicide specs also mean your dps for PvE (namely raiding) becomes SO unpredictable and nearly impossible to control hate (which is already a problem for Enh specs to begin with), you becomes a detriment to raid groups. Also suicide specs suck at Arena, simply put because you lack any form of survival skills, for yourself and your teammates.
The KEY word I said was BURST! Course PvP PERIOD is based on BURST! And FT and burst is NEVER used in the same sentance!
Which about the only thing 21 elem specs provide is the %5 increase to shock/LB dmg and 100% crit increase to spells, and perhaps even the imp fire tots. Trying to rely on crit/burst dmg from a shock or LB in melee gear, is trying to reply on a event that has a 10%-ish chance to happen, granted a SS+ES crit even in full S1 gear will hit up into the 2k realm, don't think its gonna be happening ALOT!
If you do plan on doing some form of suicide hybrid, I have found "respectable" sucess from mixing 2 S1 enh gear pieces with 2 S1 elem pieces (namely the S1 elem gloves). I find the +35 resil X 2 from the 2 set bonus of each set to be more useful than the 4 set bonus. Also the Elem glove bonus of extended shock range is a 1000 times > than the +% to lightning shield (which is one of the more useless abilities for shaman, especially @ 70).
Edited, May 7th 2008 4:19am by gpyfb
8 posts
wasnt talking about pvp but i still think it would do good in pve and if you get sunfire enchant i think thats what it is where u get 50 fire dmg on both weps thats 100 more dmg so that adds to the flame shock as well. i personally think it would work well. like i said i havent tried it myself but i know how i would spec and what gear i would get and i think it would work and aggro wouldnt be a prob cuz your not hitting for big numbers
Except it's not 100 extra damage. It's 10. FT only gets 10% of your spell damage added on. And keep in mind that a completely unbuffed enhance shammy in raids is already running with 500 spell damage just from talents (30% of AP into spell damage). So, by taking S1 elemental over S1 enhance, you're only gaining maybe 200-300 spell damage... except you're also losing any semblance of decent melee damage.
Unless I'm mistaken, suicide specs aren't as much about melee damage, and more about getting a second high-damage offhand so that you inflate your +dmg by about 300. Except that no longer works, Blizz finally got around to making *every* caster one-handed weapon mainhand-only.
Unless I'm mistaken, suicide specs aren't as much about melee damage, and more about getting a second high-damage offhand so that you inflate your +dmg by about 300. Except that no longer works, Blizz finally got around to making *every* caster one-handed weapon mainhand-only.
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So i was sitting there thinking if there was a way to out DMG DW WF.
Ok, let me back track a bit. So you've come up with a "hypothetical" way that you think could BEAT DW WF, was that the root of the question? At this point, I'm assuming you started this thread in the form of a question. Ok, I'm with you so far...I posting in a forum, is under the guise that there's ppl with experiance, rather than ppl pulling stuff outta their @SS (though this point is HIGHLY debated :P)!
Then you get a response that answers your question by ppl that have experiance, at which point the reply is...
Quote:
i personally think it would work well.
Hmmm...So that means I made a wrong assumption from the start! This thread wasn't based on a question, but rather a statement! The statement should have been posted saying, "I"ve found a way to beat DW WF, and here how"!
Well, sorry it doesn't work, your statement is WRONG! I say that with experiance.
Now that being said, as I previously mentioned 21/40/0 (or any combination of just elem/enh) are JUST suicide specs. They are JUST effective at PvP, and only as a certain "style" of PvP (BG at that only too). Weither you intended to do PvP or not, thats where they "glow" (Notice I didn't say SHINE).
Part of the unpopularity of suicide specs is that "other" Heavy Enh (or Elem) with a mix of Resto, bring more overall effectiveness in PvP AND PvE. Thus Suicide specs don't bring a conciderable difference in DMG to justify gimping so many other skills of this class. Maybe when WOTLK comes out, things might change. But as of now...NO.
Quote:
suicide specs aren't as much about melee damage, and more about getting a second high-damage offhand so that you inflate your +dmg by about 300. Except that no longer works, Blizz finally got around to making *every* caster one-handed weapon mainhand-only.
Shock specs. I'm not sure if that was a "type" of suicide spec, yet I'm sure it was probably based heavy in Elem. Course Im sure the lingo or terms is a moot point. It gained some popularity amongst some dps/pvp shamans, and not sure why it "died" out so to speak. Either way, its not a mainstream setup.
I've heard and saw a vid on Youtube regarding this (haven't been able to find the vid again, amoungst the SEA of PvP highlight reels :p), and I "suppose" it looked Viable. Granted PvP Highlight reels aren't really a defining scale of player skill or effectiveness, but rather a test of LUCK and the camera being on!
Last time I did some research I believe there is still 1 or 2 daggers that are caster stats that can be OH'd. Granted if I remember right, your talking something that dropped off a WB or BT, and FAR from common by any means. Definetly not something one should "plan" on getting much less PLAN a entire spec around! I haven't checked since 2.4 came out, so I don't know if they are still around.
In my experiance with suicide specs, I did have alot of fun using them, but it wasn't for the reasons I thought it was going to be. While on rare occation, I'd smack someone pretty damn hard with a SS+Double WF crit and Shock CRIT, all of which was Highlight reel worthy, but this happened far and few between! By the #'s even with gear tweeks my spell crit never got above a CONSISTANT 15% (Though situationally I could spike it to 50%!!...but I didn't have control over this)!
What I found to be a suicides strength in BG PvP, was the flexibility in range and melee dmg...BUT NOT AT THE SAME TIME! Huh!? WTH am I talking about, your asking...
My 2 favorite specs on a shaman is elem and enh, and granted I've played all 3 in various different setups, thus I have very exceptional skills and gearing in all. Point is, I have GEARING in all! Thus I swapped out between elem gear and Enh gear, when I could, to suit the situation in the BG that called for it. Need a healer or need to do range dmg...swap into Elem gear. Need to be up close, swap Enh. Course you can only swap gear out of combat, so it limits complete flexibility, but I can bring more to myself and others, than being JUST one type of dps!
I found no sucess in trying to be BOTH a elem or Enh in just ONE gear combination, and trying to mix both play styles in the same situation DOESN'T WORK! Your going to have to commit to a aspect of play in some form, unless you have the gearing to support it. And even at that, you are going to have to commit to that play style/gearing BEFORE you enter combat anyhow!
Edited, May 7th 2008 1:31pm by gpyfb
Quote:
Last time I did some research I believe there is still 1 or 2 daggers that are caster stats that can be OH'd. Granted if I remember right, your talking something that dropped off a WB or BT, and FAR from common by any means. Definetly not something one should "plan" on getting much less PLAN a entire spec around! I haven't checked since 2.4 came out, so I don't know if they are still around.
Nope, they all got changed. There is no longer a single weapon with +dmg (even +dmg from healing) that is equippable in your offhand.
And that's exactly what the spec was designed around - a 30/31 build with two extremely good caster weapons so that you can get absolutely insane levels of +dmg. We're talking in the range of +1400 or +1500dmg *unbuffed* (at least ideally). Totems alone bump that up by another 150dmg.
Edited, May 7th 2008 9:13am by lsfreak
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