Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

As of 2.4, muti or ShS for 2v2?Follow

#27 May 07 2008 at 12:10 AM Rating: Good
*
74 posts
It'll help your offensive stats to stop gemming defensively. I'm seeing a few resil/stam gems in your gear, which is part of the problem; AP gems all the way. Also, getting new weapons will probably solve most of your noodle-damage woes.
#28 May 07 2008 at 2:36 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
It'll help your offensive stats to stop gemming defensively. I'm seeing a few resil/stam gems in your gear, which is part of the problem; AP gems all the way. Also, getting new weapons will probably solve most of your noodle-damage woes.


Agreed, get merciless glad weps/fist weps if you have badges when merc comes out and slap dual mongoose onto them, resocket your stuff with +16 Attack Power gems (not the +12 if possible as an extra +4 AP adds up with every gem), and change your leg enchant to +40 Attack Power +20 crit =)
#29 May 07 2008 at 4:28 AM Rating: Good
**
644 posts
Good points guys, thanks (some of which I had already decided to do). I have first started gemming defensively the first time I geared up because I was getting raped a lot, but that's quite outdated now.

As soon as S4 comes out, I'll get whatever gear I can, depending on the quote we achiee, i.e.:
- S4 neck (no req.),
- S4 belt (no req.)
- S4 bracers (1575),
- S4 chest (1600),
- S4 ring (1650),
- S4 boots (1700).

I'll resocket those (and existing ones) to remove all + sta and + resi gems and I'll go full damage. By the way, I read that 24 AP > 8 agi > 16 AP so I guess I should socket with + agi when the equivalent is not more than twice as much AP. Theo, I see that you socketed for AP, not agi, so I guess that you disagree with this statement. Could you please explain? Also a good point about the leg enchant, I'll change that one too.

I guess all the above will be done before I have my 150 badges for my new weapons (currently having just half that).

This will let me see how better we do with better stuff and gems and I'll then decide what 103 dps weapongs I take (speaking of which, I'm thinking that I should in any case take the dagger OH, 1.4 speed, which is ok for both Muti and ShS (in the first case, with the 1.8 dagger as MH and in the second case with the MH fist weapon; is it correct?). Still having a hard time deciding on that (people on AJ say "go muti" and I have the feeling that people around here are more split between muti and ShS). Frankly, I love the versatility of ShS but I'm fed up with being a damage dealer that deals as much damage as a little girl waving a lolipop.

About the weapon enchants: why double mongoose? I currently have executioner MH and mongoose OH and I had the impression it was better. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks to all for spending the time to help me improve my stuff, helped me clear my mind and I see now much better what needs to be done.

Oh and if people could stop karma-trolling on this thread, that would be great. Theo's amont the funniest and, most importantly, most helpful people around here so it's kinda silly to karma-troll him. All those who agree, please rate him up.

nostra

Edited, May 7th 2008 3:38pm by nostraaa
#30 May 07 2008 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
*
74 posts
Quote:
This will let me see how better we do with better stuff and gems and I'll then decide what 103 dps weapongs I take (speaking of which, I'm thinking that I should in any case take the dagger OH, 1.4 speed, which is ok for both Muti and ShS (in the first case, with the 1.8 dagger as MH and in the second case with the MH fist weapon; is it correct?). Still having a hard time deciding on that (people on AJ say "go muti" and I have the feeling that people around here are more split between muti and ShS). Frankly, I love the versatility of ShS but I'm fed up with being a damage dealer that deals as much damage as a little girl waving a lolipop.

The only reason I would suggest against mixing weapon types is if t here's any possibility of you doing PvE. I'm not sure what your focus is; if strictly PvP, then I suppose there's nothing technically wrong with a dagger OH as Shs, as unorthodox as it might be. But if there's the slightest glimmer of a chance that you'll be raiding in the future, you're unfortunately going to have to commit to a weapon.
As far as your damage issues go, the problem lies not in the spec, but your gear. Season 1 weapons might have purple text, but when you're using them to whack Season 3 armor, it probably feels like you've got 71 dps blue quest rewards in your hands. One thing to remember is that the Shs spec offers not only greater survivability and mobility (leading to higher on-target time, which means better damage), but also amazing scalability. With deadliness and sinister calling, every point of agility or attack power you gain with your upgrades counts for more than it would if you were mut. These two benefits synergize ridiculously well; as mentioned earlier in the thread, the inherent survivability that the Shs spec offers allows the rogue to gear more offensively, which allows your AP/agi scaling to truly shine.
In any case, the S3 maces make the little girl look like she's waving cauliflower, not lollipops XD

THAT BEING SAID...

my personal choice would be to go mut. I am a burst junkie. I like to imagine my opponent /boggling at his health bar, wondering what the **** just hit him. I like to see his healer panic, scrambling to keep him alive.
Additionally, mut is so much more interesting than combat as a raid spec. The variability of your cycles keeps you on your toes, whereas the average combat rogue can easily slip into autopilot SS-mashing mode.
And although it has no bearing whatsoever on anything practical, I enjoy the aesthetic properties of a vicious dagger-wielding murderer. It just feels more rogue.

Quote:
About the weapon enchants: why double mongoose? I currently have executioner MH and mongoose OH and I had the impression it was better. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Rogues benefit much more from the bonus agility than the armor penetration, especially since a double proc stacks.

Edited, May 7th 2008 1:57pm by beardownmanup
#31 May 07 2008 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
*****
13,048 posts
nostraaa wrote:
Oh and if people could stop karma-trolling on this thread, that would be great. Theo's amont the funniest and, most importantly, most helpful people around here so it's kinda silly to karma-troll him. All those who agree, please rate him up.

nostra

Thanks, Nostra.

I've been going through and rating up everyone in this thread and a few others that are getting karma-bombed around here.

edit: man I've been posting way too much recently. 4900 posts already. Smiley: frown

Edited, May 7th 2008 2:36pm by Theophany
#32 May 07 2008 at 2:46 PM Rating: Decent
36 posts
Man, I feel like I'm in similiar shoes as Nostraaa. I geared up by grinding bgs for a while and just recently started doing some 2v2 arenas for fun.

Been trying to figure out how to spend honor pts, badges, arena pts I have started saving once S4 starts.

I also want to try out shs but I only have crappy 71dps swords vs my S1 MH/OH daggers (currently combat mut)...don't know if that will be like punching ppl with big fluffy pillows vs stabbing their brains out with pointy sticks :)

#33 May 07 2008 at 6:09 PM Rating: Default
*****
13,048 posts
xlpanda wrote:
Man, I feel like I'm in similiar shoes as Nostraaa. I geared up by grinding bgs for a while and just recently started doing some 2v2 arenas for fun.

Been trying to figure out how to spend honor pts, badges, arena pts I have started saving once S4 starts.

I also want to try out shs but I only have crappy 71dps swords vs my S1 MH/OH daggers (currently combat mut)...don't know if that will be like punching ppl with big fluffy pillows vs stabbing their brains out with pointy sticks :)

You should really be speccing for your arena teams, as I've said in my PvP FAQ.

Most arena teams require rogues to have a large amount of survivability, hence why most rogues are ShS.
#34 May 07 2008 at 10:49 PM Rating: Decent
**
644 posts
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Most arena teams require rogues to have a large amount of survivability, hence why most rogues are ShS.
^

Most probably true in a team where you can outlast other teams (if you're with a healer) and probably as well in double dps teams.

I'm with a disc priest and we really can't outlast druids, pallies or shamies in terms of healing, especially since I'll typically take more damage (and thus require more healing) than a warrior.

For this reason, I think that I should try Muti which would allow me to kill fast enough (as opposed to survive long, until my priest is OOM and we've lost the mana war).

nostra
#35 May 07 2008 at 10:53 PM Rating: Decent
**
644 posts
beardownmanup wrote:
In any case, the S3 maces make the little girl look like she's waving cauliflower, not lollipops XD


I guess so, but I don't have a personal rating of 1850 (soon 1800) and I don't have that many arena points to spend on those weapons. The sunwell fists/daggers should do the trick, though.

beardownmanup wrote:

Rogues benefit much more from the bonus agility than the armor penetration, especially since a double proc stacks.


Did not know that. Thanks for sharing.

nostra

Edited, May 8th 2008 8:54am by nostraaa
#36 May 08 2008 at 7:47 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,039 posts
i use ambush in BGs a lot and it rocks.
i tried using it in arena and i found it to be a little difficult in 2v2 w/out shadowstep, but in 3v3 and 5v5 the opening burst from an ambush crit will hurt a mage bad, add to it the fact that you can instant mutilate after it happens and having a crit on that will knock off most of the opponent's health.

#37 May 08 2008 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
36 posts
Well, I decided to respec to Shs last night to try it out. I went with the deep sub spec 17/0/44.

I have been mut so long that the first fight I tried to get to the mob's back to attack :) Old habits are hard to break sometimes.

Also getting use to the different fininshers, keybindings, etc will take a little bit of adjustment.

So, I'm guessing in most fights, you stealth > premed > shs > cs or garrote (depending on who you're fighting) > EA > SnD hopefully > hemo to build pts > rupture > ???

I'm in the process of going back through old posts to see if there's any mention of cycles to use.

I had a lot of fun with this build just messing around in WSG bgs and with the orges outside of Shatt.
#38 May 08 2008 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
**
924 posts
Enthalpy wrote:
i use ambush in BGs a lot and it rocks.
i tried using it in arena and i found it to be a little difficult in 2v2 w/out shadowstep, but in 3v3 and 5v5 the opening burst from an ambush crit will hurt a mage bad, add to it the fact that you can instant mutilate after it happens and having a crit on that will knock off most of the opponent's health.


You're fighting scrubs, then. In 5v5 on my lock I'm rocking well over 17k health, a 3k ambush crit and a 2k mute crit really won't phase me (On 15% resilience after talents..). It might make me laugh at you though.
#39 May 08 2008 at 12:00 PM Rating: Default
*****
13,048 posts
xlpanda wrote:
Well, I decided to respec to Shs last night to try it out. I went with the deep sub spec 17/0/44.

I have been mut so long that the first fight I tried to get to the mob's back to attack :) Old habits are hard to break sometimes.

Also getting use to the different fininshers, keybindings, etc will take a little bit of adjustment.

So, I'm guessing in most fights, you stealth > premed > shs > cs or garrote (depending on who you're fighting) > EA > SnD hopefully > hemo to build pts > rupture > ???

I'm in the process of going back through old posts to see if there's any mention of cycles to use.

I had a lot of fun with this build just messing around in WSG bgs and with the orges outside of Shatt.

There really are no cycles in PvP.

You're reacting and baiting your opponent into using abilities, not just going through some sequence that you memorized.
#40 May 13 2008 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
*
194 posts
xlpanda wrote:
Well, I decided to respec to Shs last night to try it out. I went with the deep sub spec 17/0/44.

I have been mut so long that the first fight I tried to get to the mob's back to attack :) Old habits are hard to break sometimes.

Also getting use to the different fininshers, keybindings, etc will take a little bit of adjustment.

So, I'm guessing in most fights, you stealth > premed > shs > cs or garrote (depending on who you're fighting) > EA > SnD hopefully > hemo to build pts > rupture > ???

I'm in the process of going back through old posts to see if there's any mention of cycles to use.

I had a lot of fun with this build just messing around in WSG bgs and with the orges outside of Shatt.


Eh, staying behind something is a good idea anyway, keeps you in practice for raiding and arena.

Stay behind a rogue that pops evasion, and you'll see what I mean.
#41 May 13 2008 at 2:36 PM Rating: Excellent
Tried Muti today.

It was different, but overall we won against the same team we won against and lost against the same team we lost against as SHS.

So /shrug.
#42 May 13 2008 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
***
1,463 posts
Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
Tried Muti today.

It was different, but overall we won against the same team we won against and lost against the same team we lost against as SHS.

So /shrug.


The strength of muti is knowing when to force your burst. If you can grab a cc chain on the healer, then dps needs to die.

I don't know who you were playing agianst, but I currently suck as mutilate(I am currently mutilate spec just for fun again).

It takes practice, just getting used to the different play-style.

Did you manage to find the videos you were asking for OP? If not I'll have a look if I can find some, but I recently deleted my 4gigs worth of arena vids >.<
#43 May 13 2008 at 3:57 PM Rating: Excellent
We beat several rogue/mages, a handful of rogue/priest and a weird mage/lock team...

And got destroyed by warrior/druid.

So yeah, nothing to report really.
#44 May 13 2008 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
***
1,463 posts
You need to work on the warrior/druid strategy, what spec are you using?
#45 May 13 2008 at 4:17 PM Rating: Excellent
44/0/17.

Even with the priest helping to burst, we can't seem to bring the warrior down, meanwhile I'm giving all the rage he needs to kill my priest. If we somehow stop pressing the warrior for even 1 second, his health goes back up to damn near full.

Going on the druid obviously doesn't work, with no shadowstep it's like going for a 100 yard sprint with your shoe string tied together.


Edited, May 13th 2008 8:21pm by Tyrandor
#46 May 13 2008 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
***
1,463 posts
Drop elusiveness, ghostly strike and initiative. Get master poisoner(1-2) and imp poisons(3-4).

You don't use nearly enough openers for initiative to be useful, and ghostly strike is just awful with daggers, 20 more energy for a mutilate is so much better.

Gaining the poison talents also make it harder for druids to get rid of your stacks, as you are applying them quicker.

Your primary job will to just stick to the warrior, while your priest will LoS him and play with the druid. If your priest can't survive a warrior, you are basically stuffed.

I do 2v2 with a shadow geared disc priest that has a rogue main and we have broken 185o. With a full vengeful geared priest you should have it much easier.

Fear the druid every cd, every single time. Force him to want to heal that warrior, waste his mana, wound will be up, you will be stacking stupidly quick, and jsut forcing him to play your game. If wound is not up enough, you will most likely lose.

You need to be aggressive, shutting down the warrior immensely, and when the appropriate time comes(druid should have trinketed by then) a blind+fear combo can be deadly.

You have 2 options. If you think the game will drag a little, do your cold blood early on to force the druid to panic heal.

If you tihnk you can quickly take the warrior to low health and cc chain the druid, then save the CB for that.

Our usual loss' to warrior/druid is what you said as well, warrior goes and lolstuns my priest and by the time he is out, he is dead.(intercept+weapon stun+mace stun = GG priest)

I usually try to save my KS for when the warrior does his intercept, and if that fails quickly try to gauge to buy some time so he can LoS again..

/edit* My priests spec. The imp fear is nice, and blackout procs surprisingly are a massive help at times.

Reflective shield is big against warriors(and rogues), as it eats away their health.

But this is an unorthodox spec, and some priests love it others hate it.

Edited, May 13th 2008 8:42pm by devzzz
#47 May 13 2008 at 4:54 PM Rating: Excellent
Heh yeah, GS was a misclick and I didn't want to spend 50g to respec :(

I find it very difficult to peel warriors off my priest.

Intercept means they can almost always get back to them (And pillar humping isn't possible if you want your priest to control the druid), KS is often resisted, Gouge can be Raged out of and Crippling Poison might be better then Hamstring, but the speed difference isn't usaully that great - With intercept, the warrior still remain capable of catching up to the priest.

I've seen my priest win against full Vegenful Warrior in duel... but in duel, they don't have heals and a rogue giving them damn near infinite rage. Sometimes I almost feel like I'm hurting more then I'm helping.

Fear + Blind + Sap on the druid is the plan, but it's so much easier for the druid to come out of stealth with a cyclone and mess up the strat then it is for us to go on the offensive.



Edited, May 13th 2008 8:58pm by Tyrandor
#48 May 13 2008 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
***
1,463 posts
Your priest just has to survive when he gets intercepted and hope to god RNG doesn't own him.

Not much you can do when a warrior just lolstuns you all the way to death I know...

You just have to try your best, and the priest has to be careful with his movements, sticking close to pillars etc.

If on blade's edge, MCing the druid when he is desperately healing the warrior is a good way to gain the advantage.

But all has to come with experience, and I also hate the 2v2 matrix.

Personally prefer 3v3...
#49 May 13 2008 at 11:14 PM Rating: Excellent
Sadly I'm in a bad spot partner wise for 3v3, as you can see by looking my team up.

My 2s priest used to be in my 3, but he left for a team he believe can make Gladiator. We couldn't find a mage.
#50 May 13 2008 at 11:58 PM Rating: Good
**
644 posts
Tyrandor,

The build suggested by Devzz is exactly what I'm going to respec for once I get my second 103 dps dagger in a few days. And that's after serious investigation and questioning, both here and on AJ. There, I have had several confirmations that the "deep poison" Muti build is what works best with a disc priest.

You apparently need 5/5 vile poisons but you can play with the following:

Improved Poisons (not below 3/5)
Murder
Improved Expose Armor
Master Poisoner

You can for example drop MOD and go full poisons and also get 2/2 Murder.

Obviously, as a Muti rogue, you'll rarely get to sap a ShS rogue, so you have to play accordingly (more defensively, positioning yourself away from where you think the rogue will come, let him open on your priest and rape him or his partner, according to what appears preferable). This is even more true if you drop MOD.

Good luck,

nostra

Edited, May 14th 2008 10:00am by nostraaa
#51 May 14 2008 at 3:16 AM Rating: Decent
*****
13,048 posts
Unfortunately, rogues are almost forced to spec ShS to deal with all the comps in higher rated brackets.

For any comp that we don't have to because of the other team's comp, we have to because of our own comp. The only comp I can think of where mut is substantially better is rogue/mage 2s. 9% more damage on shatters is HUGE.

For anything else, though, it's usually better to be ShS. Not saying mut isn't viable, but as Tyr has discovered, it's a hell of a lot harder to stay on a druid, which is really what needs to be done if your priest can't pillar hump.

It's sad, but it's the way of arena right now.

I also have to mention, I love Enveloping Shadows versus warriors. Resisting Piercing Howl, Intim Shout, Demo Shout, etc are all incredibly useful. You lose Vile Poisons, but after testing, the teams that it'd be nice on, there's not a huge difference either because of a shaman's cleansing totem or Abolish.

And yeah, Vile effects Abolish, but not enough.

Just my feelings on the subject. Any comp with a druid is pretty much considered GG for a mut rogue team.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 87 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (87)