Hi,
My team is currently doing poorly due to my inability to deal damage (I play with a Disc priest, we both have 400 resi, he's full S2 and I'm half S3/S1).
I never die before my partner, so I think that I should drop some resi and increase my AP). But maybe I should also respec, so: on an average (i.e. against all teams found in 2v2), as of 2.4, should I stay ShS (and get the 103 dps fists) or respec Muti (and get the 103 dps daggers). I haven't played Muti in a long time and, so it's hard for me to compare the two builds (41/0/20 vs 20/0/41).
Thanks in advance for sharing your views.
nostra
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As of 2.4, muti or ShS for 2v2?Follow
Im Muti right now and its good for 2v2 imo. Ive been dealing out some good dmg. Im 41/20/0 though and thats just because i PvE also.
If you have to ask, likely shadowstep. Mutilate is a fairly specific playstyle, and if you don't have a handle on it you're going to suck at it.
Get better at peeling them off of your priest, tell your priest to get better at pillar humping.
Get better at peeling them off of your priest, tell your priest to get better at pillar humping.
Mutilate is very powerful when playing along with a priest, and helps battle a very hard enemy, druids.
However, either spec you choose, it isn't the spec that will win the games, it is how you play. Read some strategies and practice games.
If you ONLY 2v2 with a disc priest then mutilate is just as good as if not better than ShS, since you will be sticking to a dps most of the fight, and have a very nice burst to kill him off.
*edit* Seems he posted the exact same thing in arena junkies and they recommend mutilate
Edited, May 5th 2008 9:50pm by devzzz
However, either spec you choose, it isn't the spec that will win the games, it is how you play. Read some strategies and practice games.
If you ONLY 2v2 with a disc priest then mutilate is just as good as if not better than ShS, since you will be sticking to a dps most of the fight, and have a very nice burst to kill him off.
*edit* Seems he posted the exact same thing in arena junkies and they recommend mutilate
Edited, May 5th 2008 9:50pm by devzzz
Thanks for the replies guys.
Banatu, I've played Muti quite a bit and wasn't too bad at it, it was just some time ago when I had crappy 71.7 dps daggers, which is the reason why I can't compare myself. I trust that I'll be able to handle it.
But I guess you're right as regards getting better at peeling them off of my priest. I'm usually with deadly on mh and the snaring poison on oh (can't remember the English name). I usually just open with a sap on one guy and then CS the main target. The the sap doesn't last forever or the guy trinkets, so he's very soon on my priest. My priest needs to stand still to cast as he has few instants, plus the bad guy usually has ways to slow him down (snaring poison, warrior's hit that breaks the knee (don't know the name in Engilsh again, sorry), etc.) so my priest has got one guy on his back and that's usually untill the time (1) we try to take him off the fight by a succession of blind/fear (we should manage to add a vanish/sap in there, I know, but that would take me off my main target... don't really know how to do that without giving him too much air) or (2) my priest needs air and I switch target and stun-lock the guy who's beating on him.
I guess that's pretty much all we can do, so any advise on how to improve would be MOST welcome. Thanks!
Devzz, thanks for your reply. I guess I do need to read more strategies. Where would you do that, please?
As you said, the replies on AJ point to the same solution: go Muti for 2v2. With two well informed opinions pointing to Muti, I feel confident that it's the right thing to do. Since I've been doing heroics for weeks to get my 150 badges for two 103 dps daggers (or maces), I needed to be sure I was making the right choice.
Thanks to all for your help.
nostra
Banatu, I've played Muti quite a bit and wasn't too bad at it, it was just some time ago when I had crappy 71.7 dps daggers, which is the reason why I can't compare myself. I trust that I'll be able to handle it.
But I guess you're right as regards getting better at peeling them off of my priest. I'm usually with deadly on mh and the snaring poison on oh (can't remember the English name). I usually just open with a sap on one guy and then CS the main target. The the sap doesn't last forever or the guy trinkets, so he's very soon on my priest. My priest needs to stand still to cast as he has few instants, plus the bad guy usually has ways to slow him down (snaring poison, warrior's hit that breaks the knee (don't know the name in Engilsh again, sorry), etc.) so my priest has got one guy on his back and that's usually untill the time (1) we try to take him off the fight by a succession of blind/fear (we should manage to add a vanish/sap in there, I know, but that would take me off my main target... don't really know how to do that without giving him too much air) or (2) my priest needs air and I switch target and stun-lock the guy who's beating on him.
I guess that's pretty much all we can do, so any advise on how to improve would be MOST welcome. Thanks!
Devzz, thanks for your reply. I guess I do need to read more strategies. Where would you do that, please?
As you said, the replies on AJ point to the same solution: go Muti for 2v2. With two well informed opinions pointing to Muti, I feel confident that it's the right thing to do. Since I've been doing heroics for weeks to get my 150 badges for two 103 dps daggers (or maces), I needed to be sure I was making the right choice.
Thanks to all for your help.
nostra
As priest/rogue, your priest should be using very few casted heals to keep you up. If he is, you're doing something wrong. Renew/ProM/PW:S should keep you both near full health.
As Mut in 2s with a priest you're gonna wanna spec a 41/20/0 build for sustained damage. Versus a double DPS team, you're going to want to play very, very defensively, using LOS to put damage on the other team while your priest keeps up with ProM/Renew. If you can slowly put up the damage on a double DPS team, you'll win by outlasting them.
Against a drain comp, you're basically again playing an outlast game, only this time your damage is going to add to that drain on the other team's healer. Mana Burn, Dispel, etc should be the main casts from your priest on both your DPS target and the healer of the other time, though the Burn is definitely going to go on the other team's healer.
With the amount of damage you should be putting out plus your priest using Mana Burn, no other team should outlast you, though against druid teams, you need to play very smart. Make sure your priest doesn't let the druid drink or get an Innervate.
As Mut in 2s with a priest you're gonna wanna spec a 41/20/0 build for sustained damage. Versus a double DPS team, you're going to want to play very, very defensively, using LOS to put damage on the other team while your priest keeps up with ProM/Renew. If you can slowly put up the damage on a double DPS team, you'll win by outlasting them.
Against a drain comp, you're basically again playing an outlast game, only this time your damage is going to add to that drain on the other team's healer. Mana Burn, Dispel, etc should be the main casts from your priest on both your DPS target and the healer of the other time, though the Burn is definitely going to go on the other team's healer.
With the amount of damage you should be putting out plus your priest using Mana Burn, no other team should outlast you, though against druid teams, you need to play very smart. Make sure your priest doesn't let the druid drink or get an Innervate.
Thanks for the strategy tips, Theo.
I'm just not sure about 41/20/0, for the following reason:
- the first 5 points have to go either to Imp Gouge (3) and Light Refl. (2) or just 5/5 Light Refl. I find Imp Gouge not very useful since it rarely runs the full duration and Light Refl. improves survivabilit while I want to improve my dam.
- the next 5 points are going to be precision, which is fine,
- then obviously Imp Sprint (2) which is great and the remaining 3 points are kinda fillers (probably filling Light Refl. to 5/5 if not already done),
- the last 5 points are obviously Ambidextry for the improved dam.
Most high ranked rogues favor sth like 49/0/12. I haven't seen their builds, but I guess it's sth like:
http://www.wow-europe.com/fr/info/basics/talents/rogue/talents.html?tal=0053031055521325210510000000000000000000000005502000000000000000000
They call it "deep poison" and think that it's most effective. Appart from the more effective poisons, you get:
- better stealth,
- better/cheaper sap/blind,
- improve damage (which, if I remember correctly, is more or less equivalent of Ambidextry with a Mut build).
Given how I want to improve my damage, I guess I'd better go with the second build, even if it means giving up Imp Sprint which I love.
But please do tell me if you think I'm wrong.
Thanks,
nostra
I'm just not sure about 41/20/0, for the following reason:
- the first 5 points have to go either to Imp Gouge (3) and Light Refl. (2) or just 5/5 Light Refl. I find Imp Gouge not very useful since it rarely runs the full duration and Light Refl. improves survivabilit while I want to improve my dam.
- the next 5 points are going to be precision, which is fine,
- then obviously Imp Sprint (2) which is great and the remaining 3 points are kinda fillers (probably filling Light Refl. to 5/5 if not already done),
- the last 5 points are obviously Ambidextry for the improved dam.
Most high ranked rogues favor sth like 49/0/12. I haven't seen their builds, but I guess it's sth like:
http://www.wow-europe.com/fr/info/basics/talents/rogue/talents.html?tal=0053031055521325210510000000000000000000000005502000000000000000000
They call it "deep poison" and think that it's most effective. Appart from the more effective poisons, you get:
- better stealth,
- better/cheaper sap/blind,
- improve damage (which, if I remember correctly, is more or less equivalent of Ambidextry with a Mut build).
Given how I want to improve my damage, I guess I'd better go with the second build, even if it means giving up Imp Sprint which I love.
But please do tell me if you think I'm wrong.
Thanks,
nostra
You get more sustained damage at the loss of a very negligible talent like Imp Poisons by going 41/20/0.
You also get the benefit of PvE viability, too.
Your build is going to look like this.
Yes, I realize no Imp KS hurts, but leaving out any other talent will hurt more, and Imp KS is mainly a burst talent anyway. You're going to be using KS as an interrupt/root of a sort in your comp.
You also get the benefit of PvE viability, too.
Your build is going to look like this.
Yes, I realize no Imp KS hurts, but leaving out any other talent will hurt more, and Imp KS is mainly a burst talent anyway. You're going to be using KS as an interrupt/root of a sort in your comp.
Improved poisons means 10% more chances to apply poisons. As compared to a base 20% / 30% chance, this means +25% to + 33% poisons applied. This can barely be called negligible in fights where it's vital to have your poisons applied quickly and regularly throughout the fight. And the lack of Imp KS is kinda annoying since this spec is supposed to allow you to burst, really.
You have your points though on other issues, so I'll try both, the burst build your your 41/20 build (which was actually my old Muti build, tbh!).
Thanks for sharing your thoughts,
nostra
You have your points though on other issues, so I'll try both, the burst build your your 41/20 build (which was actually my old Muti build, tbh!).
Thanks for sharing your thoughts,
nostra
Nostra. Wound poison (%healing reduction poison) on mainhand always. Crippling poison (snaring) on offhand like you're doing now. The healing reduction is MUCH more valuable than the damage of deadly.
ShS > Mut in most situations.
In 2v2, you need to be able to survive. Muti has some nice toys, and undeniably better burst - but if your gear isn't good enough to burst through enemy HP, you'd be much better off sticking w/ a more defensive and mobile ShS build, in my ipinion.
In 2v2, you need to be able to survive. Muti has some nice toys, and undeniably better burst - but if your gear isn't good enough to burst through enemy HP, you'd be much better off sticking w/ a more defensive and mobile ShS build, in my ipinion.
#12REDACTED,
Posted: May 06 2008 at 11:35 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I appreciate your opinions on the subject Nostra, but I almost got Duelist with the exact setup you're trying to run in one of the hardest BGs in the US.
Nostra, to elaborate on Theo's blunt (but correct) argument, the rationale behind his talent choices are as follows, in no particular order:
-Improved poisons is a decent talent, but five points is far too great an opportunity cost. These five points are better spent elsewhere. Crippling poison won't depend on proc rate, since you should be shivving it, and wound poison has a high enough proc rate untalented that it shouldn't take excessively long to get a nice stack up. And assuming you have Vile Poisons (you DO, right?!), this stack will be exceedingly difficult for dispellers (i.e. druids, shamans, paladins) to pull off.
-Imp KS is generally not worth it unless you have at least one other DPS class to co-capitalize on the burst opportunity. Very much like improved poisons, it is a decent talent, but the points are better spent elsewhere with the team you're running.
-Imp gouge is VERY useful. Spending three points here takes the ability from 4 seconds to 5.5 seconds, which is practically the same duration as cyclone. Especially with a priest partner, if you want to be decent at peeling melee off him, you will shiv, then gouge. The extra 1.5 seconds will make a difference here.
-If you're going to go 41/20, I would suggest filling out Imp. Slice and Dice instead of the dodge talent. When your target already has EA up, and KS is on cooldown, SnD is a good finisher choice. Not to mention, blowing your CP's on SnD before you switch targets makes it feel like less of a waste.
-Improved poisons is a decent talent, but five points is far too great an opportunity cost. These five points are better spent elsewhere. Crippling poison won't depend on proc rate, since you should be shivving it, and wound poison has a high enough proc rate untalented that it shouldn't take excessively long to get a nice stack up. And assuming you have Vile Poisons (you DO, right?!), this stack will be exceedingly difficult for dispellers (i.e. druids, shamans, paladins) to pull off.
-Imp KS is generally not worth it unless you have at least one other DPS class to co-capitalize on the burst opportunity. Very much like improved poisons, it is a decent talent, but the points are better spent elsewhere with the team you're running.
-Imp gouge is VERY useful. Spending three points here takes the ability from 4 seconds to 5.5 seconds, which is practically the same duration as cyclone. Especially with a priest partner, if you want to be decent at peeling melee off him, you will shiv, then gouge. The extra 1.5 seconds will make a difference here.
-If you're going to go 41/20, I would suggest filling out Imp. Slice and Dice instead of the dodge talent. When your target already has EA up, and KS is on cooldown, SnD is a good finisher choice. Not to mention, blowing your CP's on SnD before you switch targets makes it feel like less of a waste.
beardownmanup wrote:
Nostra, to elaborate on Theo's blunt (but correct) argument, the rationale behind his talent choices are as follows, in no particular order:
-Improved poisons is a decent talent, but five points is far too great an opportunity cost. These five points are better spent elsewhere. Crippling poison won't depend on proc rate, since you should be shivving it, and wound poison has a high enough proc rate untalented that it shouldn't take excessively long to get a nice stack up. And assuming you have Vile Poisons (you DO, right?!), this stack will be exceedingly difficult for dispellers (i.e. druids, shamans, paladins) to pull off.
-Imp KS is generally not worth it unless you have at least one other DPS class to co-capitalize on the burst opportunity. Very much like improved poisons, it is a decent talent, but the points are better spent elsewhere with the team you're running.
-Imp gouge is VERY useful. Spending three points here takes the ability from 4 seconds to 5.5 seconds, which is practically the same duration as cyclone. Especially with a priest partner, if you want to be decent at peeling melee off him, you will shiv, then gouge. The extra 1.5 seconds will make a difference here.
-If you're going to go 41/20, I would suggest filling out Imp. Slice and Dice instead of the dodge talent. When your target already has EA up, and KS is on cooldown, SnD is a good finisher choice. Not to mention, blowing your CP's on SnD before you switch targets makes it feel like less of a waste.
-Improved poisons is a decent talent, but five points is far too great an opportunity cost. These five points are better spent elsewhere. Crippling poison won't depend on proc rate, since you should be shivving it, and wound poison has a high enough proc rate untalented that it shouldn't take excessively long to get a nice stack up. And assuming you have Vile Poisons (you DO, right?!), this stack will be exceedingly difficult for dispellers (i.e. druids, shamans, paladins) to pull off.
-Imp KS is generally not worth it unless you have at least one other DPS class to co-capitalize on the burst opportunity. Very much like improved poisons, it is a decent talent, but the points are better spent elsewhere with the team you're running.
-Imp gouge is VERY useful. Spending three points here takes the ability from 4 seconds to 5.5 seconds, which is practically the same duration as cyclone. Especially with a priest partner, if you want to be decent at peeling melee off him, you will shiv, then gouge. The extra 1.5 seconds will make a difference here.
-If you're going to go 41/20, I would suggest filling out Imp. Slice and Dice instead of the dodge talent. When your target already has EA up, and KS is on cooldown, SnD is a good finisher choice. Not to mention, blowing your CP's on SnD before you switch targets makes it feel like less of a waste.
Rate up for basically saying everything that I was too lazy to this morning without my coffee.
Nerf coffee, imo. Coffee/druid is way OP in 2s.
beardownmanup wrote:
Nerf coffee, imo. Coffee/druid is way OP in 2s.
Coffee/coffee destroys coffee/druid.
Coffee is way OP period.
from that 49/0/12 build, personally i'd rather do 46/0/15. improved ambush crits are just destructive, and since you can stealth and reapply in a good situation, you might be able to utterly pwn something.
Yes. Because ambush is awesome in arenas. Oh wait..
Theo, pass the coffee around man. It's too much OP for you to handle.
Theo, pass the coffee around man. It's too much OP for you to handle.
9 posts
Just to throw this out there, I run with a disc priest in 2s aswell, and i'm 49/0/12, the shorter cd on blind really helps our lockdown technique of Scream > Blind > Vanish > Sap > Scream. Of course you try to get them to blow their trinket first.
Yugaku wrote:
Just to throw this out there, I run with a disc priest in 2s aswell, and i'm 49/0/12, the shorter cd on blind really helps our lockdown technique of Scream > Blind > Vanish > Sap > Scream. Of course you try to get them to blow their trinket first.
As 49/0/12 you can't have the shorter cooldown on Blind.
You'd need to be 17 points in to get that.
9 posts
Errrr, havn't played in awhile, let me go look up my spec I used to use.
9 posts
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gorgonnash&n=Yugaku about my rating, it was 1700 before I quit.
9 posts
Ugh ignore everything i've said, apparently I went ShS.
beardownmanup wrote:
Nostra. Wound poison (%healing reduction poison) on mainhand always. Crippling poison (snaring) on offhand like you're doing now. The healing reduction is MUCH more valuable than the damage of deadly.
Yeah, that what I'm doing but I'm f.cked up with the translations (I have the game in French). Sorry.
Thanks for the reply, beardown.
I'm convinced with your point about Imp Poisons, which might be a bit overkill. Good news, I've got 5 free points now :)
As for Imp KS, the idea is to be able to burst and for this Imp KS would certainly help. Frankly, I've frequently brought a guy to a few percents of life but could not kill him with my current ShS build. In those situations, an extra 10 % dam would probably have done the job.
More generally speaking, here's my problem: I have a rather good access to pvp gear. Currently have S3/S1 with S2 bel, boots, bracers. By the time season 4 is out, I'll have like 75k honor and 3k arena points, so I should be mostly S3/S4. This means that I've got plenty of resi (396 now, would go up when I upgrade my gear) but low damages:
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cho%27gall&n=Ayen
10.4 life unbuffed
396 resi
around 1500 AP
around 30% crit
Basically, I'm not really a glass canon, I'm pretty tough but feel like I'm hitting people with a wet noodle.
It seems that, to improve the situation, I should equip more high-end PVE gear to increase my AP (at least to around 1800 I guess?). My problem is that I don't really have access to PVE gear cause I can't play enough to raid. My only solution is thus to get the sunwell stuff which is reasonably easy to get.
If I had great PVE stuff, I could bring down my resi to 300 and deal better damage. Since I don't, a solution would be to just change build and go for Muti which does better damage. It offers less survivability, for sure, but I'm nearly never targetted (my priests dies before me 95% of the fights, really).
It's important for me to decide soon if I'll go Muti or stay ShS, because it'll determine what weapons I get (and 150 badges isn't exactly easy to get either, so I don't want to waste them). Maybe just equipping the 103 fist weapons and 1-2 other sunwell pieces of equipment would improve my damage as ShS and make it viable, I don't know.
Finally, I see your point about Imp Gouge. But won't wound poison break gouge???(I'm pretty sure it reduces healing by 10% AND has a small nature DOT).
nostra
Edited, May 7th 2008 9:19am by nostraaa
I'm convinced with your point about Imp Poisons, which might be a bit overkill. Good news, I've got 5 free points now :)
As for Imp KS, the idea is to be able to burst and for this Imp KS would certainly help. Frankly, I've frequently brought a guy to a few percents of life but could not kill him with my current ShS build. In those situations, an extra 10 % dam would probably have done the job.
More generally speaking, here's my problem: I have a rather good access to pvp gear. Currently have S3/S1 with S2 bel, boots, bracers. By the time season 4 is out, I'll have like 75k honor and 3k arena points, so I should be mostly S3/S4. This means that I've got plenty of resi (396 now, would go up when I upgrade my gear) but low damages:
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cho%27gall&n=Ayen
10.4 life unbuffed
396 resi
around 1500 AP
around 30% crit
Basically, I'm not really a glass canon, I'm pretty tough but feel like I'm hitting people with a wet noodle.
It seems that, to improve the situation, I should equip more high-end PVE gear to increase my AP (at least to around 1800 I guess?). My problem is that I don't really have access to PVE gear cause I can't play enough to raid. My only solution is thus to get the sunwell stuff which is reasonably easy to get.
If I had great PVE stuff, I could bring down my resi to 300 and deal better damage. Since I don't, a solution would be to just change build and go for Muti which does better damage. It offers less survivability, for sure, but I'm nearly never targetted (my priests dies before me 95% of the fights, really).
It's important for me to decide soon if I'll go Muti or stay ShS, because it'll determine what weapons I get (and 150 badges isn't exactly easy to get either, so I don't want to waste them). Maybe just equipping the 103 fist weapons and 1-2 other sunwell pieces of equipment would improve my damage as ShS and make it viable, I don't know.
Finally, I see your point about Imp Gouge. But won't wound poison break gouge???(I'm pretty sure it reduces healing by 10% AND has a small nature DOT).
nostra
Edited, May 7th 2008 9:19am by nostraaa
Wound poison doesn't have a DoT effect.
And mut's damage is much more burst-oriented just by the nature of the spec.
Trust me. Try playing it.
And mut's damage is much more burst-oriented just by the nature of the spec.
Trust me. Try playing it.
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