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Pre-Raid Uncrushability: A Paladin Tank's GuideFollow
Stickied, effective today.
Grats on the sticky. Roflmao on all the Paladin stickies.
Its a testament to our ever growing hybridness!
I want to thank you for this post. I normally don't visit the Pally forums, but when I saw your talent guide that linked back to this post I was simply amazed. I remember when I was trying to gear up my first Tankadin, I had to scour all over the creation to find out what exactly I was supposed to do.
The previous mitigation sticky helped a lot, but it was slightly unorganized and behind the times. This sticky will do wonders for someone new to 70, unsure exactly on how a Tankadin works.
Good job sir (or ma'am), you have my complements. Also, grats on being stickied.
The previous mitigation sticky helped a lot, but it was slightly unorganized and behind the times. This sticky will do wonders for someone new to 70, unsure exactly on how a Tankadin works.
Good job sir (or ma'am), you have my complements. Also, grats on being stickied.
Yay -- I'm glad people are using it. I actually wrote it with the sole intention of storing the link in a text file on my Desktop so I could link back to it every time someone asked about gear. I wasn't hoping for a sticky right away, but by the time I wrote the Talents section I kinda had a hunch that this part would be spending some time at the top of the forum.
It's always open to expansion and modification, and remember that all of the replies are stickied with it. That means that anything that you'd like to offer in reply stays right up here with the first post.
Thanks all..
And I agree about the number of Paladin stickies. To be fair, they do all have their own areas of focus, so yes. I think it IS a testament to the roles we can fill.
It's always open to expansion and modification, and remember that all of the replies are stickied with it. That means that anything that you'd like to offer in reply stays right up here with the first post.
Thanks all..
And I agree about the number of Paladin stickies. To be fair, they do all have their own areas of focus, so yes. I think it IS a testament to the roles we can fill.
This is going to be wiki-fied this week. Looks good.
Ok this guide has been put in the wiki. With the upcoming changes to the site layout, I had to change the colors and remove them for the time being and the links and all have been modified for wiki format but you can see it here:
http://wow.allakhazam.com/wiki/A_Paladin_Tank's_Guide_to_Uncrushability_%28WoW%29
*Note - correction to page. Changed the title a bit so it shows up right off the bat.
Edited, May 19th 2008 12:48pm by Wordaen
http://wow.allakhazam.com/wiki/A_Paladin_Tank's_Guide_to_Uncrushability_%28WoW%29
*Note - correction to page. Changed the title a bit so it shows up right off the bat.
Edited, May 19th 2008 12:48pm by Wordaen
oooo Wiki
Thanks! I can see what you mean about the links, anything linking to a thread on the forum breaks, though the item ones work :D
Thanks! I can see what you mean about the links, anything linking to a thread on the forum breaks, though the item ones work :D
yeah, I just forgot to remove the [link= ] part for the forum links. fixed now.
7 posts
I have a 70 Pally tank and was looking for this very thing awhile back on other sites.. gave up as the info I found was for gear I'd never be able to get.
The problem with Heroics is you need the gear to get into pugs (my only option at the moment) so its a catch 22.
I was looking to start Kara soon so this thread hit the nail on the head for me. :c )
Right now I have 501 defense but am only at 90% or so on the combined block+avoid.. I see now where I need to address my character's gear.. but I also have some questions:
I'm SSO Exalted.. I saw the Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve but thought it was weaker than my current necklace (forget the name right now, a blue that has +18 defense and a bunch of stam on it) why is the SSO necklace better than one that has a boost to defense?
Also, I have the Dawnforged Defender but you say the Sunward Crest should be my objective.. why? The DD has nice numbers for def and block rating.. I'm not criticizing I'm really asking why the one is better than the other.
One last thing.. I have a Bogstrok Scale Cloak (271 armor, +22 stam, +16 def) is this good enough for starters? do I REALLY need the SV cloak?
Thanks for the guide.. its helpful :c )
The problem with Heroics is you need the gear to get into pugs (my only option at the moment) so its a catch 22.
I was looking to start Kara soon so this thread hit the nail on the head for me. :c )
Right now I have 501 defense but am only at 90% or so on the combined block+avoid.. I see now where I need to address my character's gear.. but I also have some questions:
I'm SSO Exalted.. I saw the Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve but thought it was weaker than my current necklace (forget the name right now, a blue that has +18 defense and a bunch of stam on it) why is the SSO necklace better than one that has a boost to defense?
Also, I have the Dawnforged Defender but you say the Sunward Crest should be my objective.. why? The DD has nice numbers for def and block rating.. I'm not criticizing I'm really asking why the one is better than the other.
One last thing.. I have a Bogstrok Scale Cloak (271 armor, +22 stam, +16 def) is this good enough for starters? do I REALLY need the SV cloak?
Thanks for the guide.. its helpful :c )
I would say- Yes, you do need the SV cape. You have the defense, now you need to up your parry, dodge, and block amounts. How do you do that? By replacing something that just adds Def with something that not only raises your defense a bit, but adds block and dodge. And with the SSO necklace, the Stam is great, but it's the Aldor Proc that's awesome, 5% dodge- Yes please!
The Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve comes with a HUGE chunk of Stamina, and two valuable Equip stats -- Hit Rating and Expertise Rating. Not only that, it adds a big chunk to your Dodge/Expertise when it procs. It's perhaps not the best piece for reaching uncrushable, but it's one of the first pieces to look at swapping into after you get there. The Steam-Hinge from SV gets you closest to uncrushable, but the Block Rating gets useless when you hit it, where the Strength of the Untamed becomes FAR superior with it's Dodge. Like I say though, after you reach 102.4%, the necklace should be an early upgrade (if you're Aldor/Scryer Exalted) for its pure ownage. TONS of Stamina will outweigh some Defense easily at that point.
The Dawnforged Defender doesn't have ANY Block Rating on it. Check it out again. Nor does it have ANY Defense. It has Dodge. The thread on shields that I linked under the Shield heading explains it better but basically it goes like this. Sunward has Block Rating and Spell Damage. The Block Rating does more for getting you to uncrushable than any of the other comparable shields. Those are the Azure-Shield of Coldarra (33 Badges), the Shield of Impenetrable Darkness (Nightbane, Kara), and the Dawnforged Defender. The Crest of the Sha'tar is even further in the dust. The Spell Damage is just gravy. The Dawnforged Defender however, offers the most PURE avoidence of all those shields. Meaning straight up not getting hit at all (Dodge in this case) -- If you're looking to reach uncrushable, the Sunward gets you closer. The Block Value on the Dawnforged is GROSSLY mis-itemized for a Paladin, and the Spell Damage on the Sunward is far more valuable. The Sunward Crest is basically almost PERFECTLY itemized for a tanking Paladin -- if not for that Spell Hit.
Like I said, there are lots of cloaks that are good to start with. But you should be aiming for the Devilshark or Slikk's Cloak of Placation. It's not like you can make it to BT without upgrading your cloak, and the Devilshark is SUPER easy to get (SV is incredibly easy) with the only downside being the luck of the drop. And if you're that unlucky, a couple badges for Slikk's dont take that long to accumulate.
For reaching uncrushable:
Block Rating > Defense > Dodge > Agility > Parry
7.9 Block Rating = 1% Block
15 Defense Rating (6.25 Defense Skill) = .25% Block/Dodge/Parry/Miss = 1% Combined (or .75% PURE)
18.9 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge
25 Agility = 1% Dodge
31.5 Parry Rating = 1% Parry
Edited, Jun 2nd 2008 11:49pm by Losie
The Dawnforged Defender doesn't have ANY Block Rating on it. Check it out again. Nor does it have ANY Defense. It has Dodge. The thread on shields that I linked under the Shield heading explains it better but basically it goes like this. Sunward has Block Rating and Spell Damage. The Block Rating does more for getting you to uncrushable than any of the other comparable shields. Those are the Azure-Shield of Coldarra (33 Badges), the Shield of Impenetrable Darkness (Nightbane, Kara), and the Dawnforged Defender. The Crest of the Sha'tar is even further in the dust. The Spell Damage is just gravy. The Dawnforged Defender however, offers the most PURE avoidence of all those shields. Meaning straight up not getting hit at all (Dodge in this case) -- If you're looking to reach uncrushable, the Sunward gets you closer. The Block Value on the Dawnforged is GROSSLY mis-itemized for a Paladin, and the Spell Damage on the Sunward is far more valuable. The Sunward Crest is basically almost PERFECTLY itemized for a tanking Paladin -- if not for that Spell Hit.
Like I said, there are lots of cloaks that are good to start with. But you should be aiming for the Devilshark or Slikk's Cloak of Placation. It's not like you can make it to BT without upgrading your cloak, and the Devilshark is SUPER easy to get (SV is incredibly easy) with the only downside being the luck of the drop. And if you're that unlucky, a couple badges for Slikk's dont take that long to accumulate.
For reaching uncrushable:
Block Rating > Defense > Dodge > Agility > Parry
7.9 Block Rating = 1% Block
15 Defense Rating (6.25 Defense Skill) = .25% Block/Dodge/Parry/Miss = 1% Combined (or .75% PURE)
18.9 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge
25 Agility = 1% Dodge
31.5 Parry Rating = 1% Parry
Edited, Jun 2nd 2008 11:49pm by Losie
Also -- I've updated the colors so that the new layout doesnt make the Enchants sections unreadable.
2 posts
great guide, thanks alot. I am a holy pally getting geared for Kara, but my guild is in sore need of a consistent tank, so I'm collecting a tank set so I can begin filling in when we've got heals but down a tank.
Anyway - the only thing I'd like is perhaps some more options when you list quest rewards - for instance, for the belt you listed, where there is nothing else. I mean, if we accidentally chose the wrong quest reward, or chose it for another spec, then what can we do?
thanks!
Anyway - the only thing I'd like is perhaps some more options when you list quest rewards - for instance, for the belt you listed, where there is nothing else. I mean, if we accidentally chose the wrong quest reward, or chose it for another spec, then what can we do?
thanks!
1 post
ty for the guide im not lvl 70 yet but i hope to be soon and ill be getting the ENG helm out of the group.
What are other peoples thoughts on using Vindication as the wild card for the left over talents? In an effort to become a better tank, I specc'd into vindication. It seems to proc a lot and land without difficulty, but I have no tanked raid content yet. Is it going to be resisted by most raid bosses? Is it useless after you step up from tanking instances to tanking 'real content'? I tried to do a search on Vindication but the forums turned up nil.
If this has already been addressed i apologize for the Question, could someone point me into the right thread where it was addressed?
If this has already been addressed i apologize for the Question, could someone point me into the right thread where it was addressed?
All bosses are immune to Vindication, so to answer your question... yes, it's useless when you start raiding.
To be fair I havn't really levelled Ret at all under the current versions of the talent trees so I havn't really experienced Vindication much myself. Yes, all raid bosses are immune to it, and I was under the impression the farther you go the greater number of mobs in GENERAL that are immune to it.
At least that's why our token Ret doesn't even carry it..
Also.. what are you considering dropping for it? Talents like Pursuit of Justice are actually somewhat decent.. only its usually totally not worth dumping that many points high up in Ret when there are other talents demanding lovin.
Edit: Also got around to updating for S2 gear.
Edited, Jun 29th 2008 12:44am by Losie
At least that's why our token Ret doesn't even carry it..
Also.. what are you considering dropping for it? Talents like Pursuit of Justice are actually somewhat decent.. only its usually totally not worth dumping that many points high up in Ret when there are other talents demanding lovin.
Edit: Also got around to updating for S2 gear.
Edited, Jun 29th 2008 12:44am by Losie
I actually dropped vindication last night and dumped 2 into precision. It seems to be working out so far. Thanks for the help!
Scholar
39 posts
i am a 64 prot pally. I notice a lot of the gear listed isnt high on spell damage or intellect, I was told that a pally tank needs that for threat. Is that true or could i use warrior type gear for tanking. Thanks
Spell Damage is important for threat. For Kara tanking, a Spell Damage weapon (minimum ~120 such as the Crystalforged Sword) with Superior Wizard Oil should suffice if your group doesn't vastly outgear you (in which case they'd have to hold back). For Gruul it would help if you could push that 80 or so higher, and the same Spell Damage should suffice for Mags.
Beyond a Spell Damage weapon, more Spell Damage is important, but takes a back seat to survivability. The only true Warrior tanking gear is gear that can ONLY be worn by Warrior (ie. Tier gear) -- tanking plate is made for both Warrior and Paladin tanks. Tier 4 is a perfect example of how many pieces of ARMOR that have Spell Damage on them are NOT good for tanking. The Tier 4 Shoulders are the only really good piece of Tier 4 gear for Paladin tanks. Of course, Tier 5 Shoulders are stupid easy to get (Loot Reaver ftw) and the ZA shoulders aren't THAT hard to acquire either. Both are superior to Tier 4.
Warrior threat stats such as Block Value, Hit Rating, and Expertise benefit you as well. Block Value is purely a mitigation stat for us, but Hit Rating and Expertise are both valuable threat stats as well as a way to ensure your Shields and Taunts always hit. Really good Spell Damage armor doesn't show up until Tier 6 imo, though there are a couple of decent Badge pieces. It's kind of like a healer stacking Haste. You only start to REALLY stack it (on lots of pieces) after you are able to maintain certain defensive stats and HP levels. For that to happen, you need a fairly decent item level because Spell Damage uses up TONS of budget compared to other stats.
By the time you're at a Tier 4 farming level (and ready to step either into Tier 5 if you have relatively little experience raiding or Tier 6 if you know what you're doing... the gear jump isn't really that bad, Tier 5 is more of a training ground than a gearing step) you'll probably have Spell Damage on your:
Weapon (likely ~200)
Chest (Badges)
Legs (Badges)
Boots (Badges)
And MAYBE on your Shoulder (Tier 4), Shield (SSO Rep), and Belt (Badges).
Tier 4 gloves are too crappy to justify the Spell Damage unless you want an AoE threat set. Same deal with the Tier 4 helm.. I'd rather use an Eternium Greathelm than that, and if you're an Engineer definitly not.
With just those pieces adding to your Spell Damage, you can generate enough threat to tank for progression in Hyjal. You'd probably need a little more to keep up with DPS that are able to farm Hyjal.
Some important items that people often mistakenly classify as "Warrior" gear:
~Badge gloves (Okay.. they aren't great, but they blow Tier 4 away)
~Badge helm (Same deal)
~ZA Boots (They're AWESOME and blow both of the Badge boots away in terms of survivability, but you might want to take the 2.3 Badge boots for their Spell Damage if you have enough and don't want to wait on these to drop)
~ZA Helm (Unless you're an Engineer, you aren't likely to beat the ZA helm until you get your Tier 6 off of Archimonde)
~Aldori Legacy Defender
~Bulwark of the Amani Empire
~Kaz'rogal's Hardened Heart
~Bulwark of Azzinoth
Okay... so if ALL FOUR of those shields are considered "Warrior" shield, what does a Paladin tank use? That is THE (Raid) Tank shield progression right there Pre-Sunwell and a Paladin needs them as much as a Warrior. The same goes for lots of other gear. Just because it has hit and block value does NOT make it a Warrior piece. Just because it doesn't have Spell Damage does NOT make it a Warrior piece. You're trying to survive, you stack gear that makes that possible.
In terms of intellect. No. You don't stack Intellect at all as a Paladin tank. Expect to have between 4200 and 5000 MP your entire tanking career. If you have more, you've sacrificed some important stat (likely a defensive one) somewhere to get it.
Beyond a Spell Damage weapon, more Spell Damage is important, but takes a back seat to survivability. The only true Warrior tanking gear is gear that can ONLY be worn by Warrior (ie. Tier gear) -- tanking plate is made for both Warrior and Paladin tanks. Tier 4 is a perfect example of how many pieces of ARMOR that have Spell Damage on them are NOT good for tanking. The Tier 4 Shoulders are the only really good piece of Tier 4 gear for Paladin tanks. Of course, Tier 5 Shoulders are stupid easy to get (Loot Reaver ftw) and the ZA shoulders aren't THAT hard to acquire either. Both are superior to Tier 4.
Warrior threat stats such as Block Value, Hit Rating, and Expertise benefit you as well. Block Value is purely a mitigation stat for us, but Hit Rating and Expertise are both valuable threat stats as well as a way to ensure your Shields and Taunts always hit. Really good Spell Damage armor doesn't show up until Tier 6 imo, though there are a couple of decent Badge pieces. It's kind of like a healer stacking Haste. You only start to REALLY stack it (on lots of pieces) after you are able to maintain certain defensive stats and HP levels. For that to happen, you need a fairly decent item level because Spell Damage uses up TONS of budget compared to other stats.
By the time you're at a Tier 4 farming level (and ready to step either into Tier 5 if you have relatively little experience raiding or Tier 6 if you know what you're doing... the gear jump isn't really that bad, Tier 5 is more of a training ground than a gearing step) you'll probably have Spell Damage on your:
Weapon (likely ~200)
Chest (Badges)
Legs (Badges)
Boots (Badges)
And MAYBE on your Shoulder (Tier 4), Shield (SSO Rep), and Belt (Badges).
Tier 4 gloves are too crappy to justify the Spell Damage unless you want an AoE threat set. Same deal with the Tier 4 helm.. I'd rather use an Eternium Greathelm than that, and if you're an Engineer definitly not.
With just those pieces adding to your Spell Damage, you can generate enough threat to tank for progression in Hyjal. You'd probably need a little more to keep up with DPS that are able to farm Hyjal.
Some important items that people often mistakenly classify as "Warrior" gear:
~Badge gloves (Okay.. they aren't great, but they blow Tier 4 away)
~Badge helm (Same deal)
~ZA Boots (They're AWESOME and blow both of the Badge boots away in terms of survivability, but you might want to take the 2.3 Badge boots for their Spell Damage if you have enough and don't want to wait on these to drop)
~ZA Helm (Unless you're an Engineer, you aren't likely to beat the ZA helm until you get your Tier 6 off of Archimonde)
~Aldori Legacy Defender
~Bulwark of the Amani Empire
~Kaz'rogal's Hardened Heart
~Bulwark of Azzinoth
Okay... so if ALL FOUR of those shields are considered "Warrior" shield, what does a Paladin tank use? That is THE (Raid) Tank shield progression right there Pre-Sunwell and a Paladin needs them as much as a Warrior. The same goes for lots of other gear. Just because it has hit and block value does NOT make it a Warrior piece. Just because it doesn't have Spell Damage does NOT make it a Warrior piece. You're trying to survive, you stack gear that makes that possible.
In terms of intellect. No. You don't stack Intellect at all as a Paladin tank. Expect to have between 4200 and 5000 MP your entire tanking career. If you have more, you've sacrificed some important stat (likely a defensive one) somewhere to get it.
Scholar
39 posts
ty losie that pretty much clears it up,,thanks
Thanks for the guide Losie. I finished lvling my latest main, and have been using this guide to gear up my tankadin en route to some endgame tanking (or so I hope joined a relatively wannabe raiding guild but that's again what I am at the moment with this toon).
I've been inmensely unlucky in drops so far though, which is very disheartening though, so I'm finding the going relatively tough. Still need to get the SL quest wrist armor, but other than that I've got all the quest/AH items. Only yesterday I ran SH x2, Mech, Bot, Arc, and MgT. Tried to get into SL but no groups. Not one drop (okay MgT ...), thinking about blowing 600g to buy the marks I need to get revered and buy Aldor chestpiece as a matter of fact.
So no moaning, I have 10.5HP and about 12k armor, 490 def and about 70% avoidance. I've been thinking about perhaps running some early heroics, but am unsure about being able to tackle them. Any comments? I can sleep through most instances (ok Mech 2nd boss was tough other than that easy running) this side of MgT (bad, bad PuG with no CC other than a horribly specced Hunter). Would start with Hc Rampants, but those two/three big pulls scare the crap out of me. I'll be revered with SSO over the weekend, so I'm inching closer to Crest and Pendant, so I could wait if everything else fails I guess.
Thx for any advice. Is it me or is the tank the most important toon to have good gear in 5-mans? Even on my first toon, BM hunter, I found the jump from normal to heroic instances pretty smooth. I guess I was carried there.
Edited, Jul 16th 2008 12:17pm by LGarth
I've been inmensely unlucky in drops so far though, which is very disheartening though, so I'm finding the going relatively tough. Still need to get the SL quest wrist armor, but other than that I've got all the quest/AH items. Only yesterday I ran SH x2, Mech, Bot, Arc, and MgT. Tried to get into SL but no groups. Not one drop (okay MgT ...), thinking about blowing 600g to buy the marks I need to get revered and buy Aldor chestpiece as a matter of fact.
So no moaning, I have 10.5HP and about 12k armor, 490 def and about 70% avoidance. I've been thinking about perhaps running some early heroics, but am unsure about being able to tackle them. Any comments? I can sleep through most instances (ok Mech 2nd boss was tough other than that easy running) this side of MgT (bad, bad PuG with no CC other than a horribly specced Hunter). Would start with Hc Rampants, but those two/three big pulls scare the crap out of me. I'll be revered with SSO over the weekend, so I'm inching closer to Crest and Pendant, so I could wait if everything else fails I guess.
Thx for any advice. Is it me or is the tank the most important toon to have good gear in 5-mans? Even on my first toon, BM hunter, I found the jump from normal to heroic instances pretty smooth. I guess I was carried there.
Edited, Jul 16th 2008 12:17pm by LGarth
It would probably suit you well to have either the Jade-Skull or Aldor rep chest piece before you venture into a Heroic. Even then, you're sitting at about the bare minimum to consider Slave Pens and perhaps a few other heroics. Remember to bring extensive CC though (ie. at least 2 semi-reliable forms if you can) since you don't really have the HP pool to handle large un-CCed pulls yet.
As always, the best way to find out is to try.
As always, the best way to find out is to try.
Thx a lot Losie. I actually got lucky yesterday and ran SL with a pretty good group. Got the bracers, the trinket and the shoulder drop in SL in just one run. Pala tanking rules, no wipes and /w from everyone adding me to their friend list too.
Bring on heroics then .... Which is slightly disheartening as I have been looking around and don't see too many upgrades for me. Badges hoarding it is.
Bring on heroics then .... Which is slightly disheartening as I have been looking around and don't see too many upgrades for me. Badges hoarding it is.
Scholar
32 posts
Losie,
What is your opinion on the Justicar Armor set? (NOTE: I can't seem to get the links working, sorry)
Justicar Chestguard, Justicar Faceguard, Justicar Handguards, Justicar Legguards, Justicar Shoulderguards
Are those a solid tanking set, or should other gear be substituted? The above set gives decent DEF and shield block. How would this set affect avoidance?
What is your opinion on the Justicar Armor set? (NOTE: I can't seem to get the links working, sorry)
Justicar Chestguard, Justicar Faceguard, Justicar Handguards, Justicar Legguards, Justicar Shoulderguards
Are those a solid tanking set, or should other gear be substituted? The above set gives decent DEF and shield block. How would this set affect avoidance?
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