Hi Guys,
My question is about what trade-offs, if any, a rogue specced for combat swords should make when allocating talent points in order to be a more effective contributor for CC in 5-man instances. I followed the Osiris model for combat swords (20/41/0), and have found I periodically get caught by lvl 70-71 trash mobs while sapping one of their neighbors, even while using distract. Obviously that then screws up the pull for everyone else, etc.
My inclination was to take a point or 2 out of assassination and into subtlety, but that will (at least marginally) hurt my dps output. I obviously wouldn't do it for raiding-- and I haven't progressed that far yet anyway-- but I'm wondering if the reduction in dps is balanced by the improved cc in the context of a small group?
The best solution would be for me to be less clumsy with distract and sap :-), so I'm going to remove the breakable gear and practice some solo sapping in some of the lvl 70 instances...but just wondered whether any of you had faced a similar situation and how you resolved it. Thanks!
(quick disclaimer-- I know there was a thread just posted by Tyrandor about sapping rogues in pvp and a useful macro suggestion posted in response...that may answer this question in which case my apologies for the double-post, and perhaps this thread could be merged into the earlier one...)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- CC for the combat rogue?
CC for the combat rogue?Follow
The macro really isn't useful for PvE sapping.
Really, sapping shouldn't be a problem if whoever is marking knows the limitations of the rogue class.
They should understand that if we're a DPS build, we're not going to be able to walk through a group of mobs, pop a sap on the one waaaaaay in the back, and still not get seen unless we Vanish to gain the buff to stealth.
Distract helps, but it's not all-powerful.
Really, sapping shouldn't be a problem if whoever is marking knows the limitations of the rogue class.
They should understand that if we're a DPS build, we're not going to be able to walk through a group of mobs, pop a sap on the one waaaaaay in the back, and still not get seen unless we Vanish to gain the buff to stealth.
Distract helps, but it's not all-powerful.
Yeah, if the leader is marking very difficult targets try explaining the situation to them. Most folks are pretty understanding in my experience. And, to be honest, they are often arbitrarily choosing sap targets anyway.
You can also use the "proximity distract", if you're very careful, to turn mobs a bit more advantageously. Most equal-level mobs will turn to you at about 8 yards or so. So if you path yourself to kinda skim that proximity radius and immediately path out of it, the mob will still be looking in that direction for a few seconds which can give you the time to land your sap or place a different distract. I do this in Shadow Labs all the time.
Does that even make sense? Be sure to practice that technique a ton while soloing first!
Caution, positioning and skill can, for the most part, make a few points in MoD unneeded for most PvE content.
Good luck!
You can also use the "proximity distract", if you're very careful, to turn mobs a bit more advantageously. Most equal-level mobs will turn to you at about 8 yards or so. So if you path yourself to kinda skim that proximity radius and immediately path out of it, the mob will still be looking in that direction for a few seconds which can give you the time to land your sap or place a different distract. I do this in Shadow Labs all the time.
Does that even make sense? Be sure to practice that technique a ton while soloing first!
Caution, positioning and skill can, for the most part, make a few points in MoD unneeded for most PvE content.
Good luck!
Scholar
36 posts
I would take a look at the markings by the tank or whoever is doing the marking and say something like, "it's going to be hard to sap that particular target...can I sap the one to the far right?" for example. Some ppl will ask you to sap things that arent sappable since they never played a rogue before so you will have to remind them. Other mobs can see sleathed rogues and some ppl don't know that either so let ppl know. Communciation is good.
Your distract will be resisted sometimes...if it does, just tell the group to wait for the cooldown and distract again.
if all else fails and you pull aggro, vanish if you can. Another option is to just die and let the healer rez you. But tell the group that ahead of time if you pull aggro not to engage...I dont mind dying if I can save the rest of the group from a wipe. My repair bill as a rogue is definitely cheaper than the tank's bill.
anyways, don't bother moving those points and just communicate more with your group to provide the best CC you can.
Your distract will be resisted sometimes...if it does, just tell the group to wait for the cooldown and distract again.
if all else fails and you pull aggro, vanish if you can. Another option is to just die and let the healer rez you. But tell the group that ahead of time if you pull aggro not to engage...I dont mind dying if I can save the rest of the group from a wipe. My repair bill as a rogue is definitely cheaper than the tank's bill.
anyways, don't bother moving those points and just communicate more with your group to provide the best CC you can.
Nice point on the "let me die" tip! Rate up.
I actually got asked back to some heroic runs with some very demanding folks based on the first time that I got caught, I vanished and got my sap in anyway. The tank (t6 raiding class-leader) really respected that.
Though, honestly, it was more luck than anything else. That and having Vanish bound to the same key as Stealth. ;p
I actually got asked back to some heroic runs with some very demanding folks based on the first time that I got caught, I vanished and got my sap in anyway. The tank (t6 raiding class-leader) really respected that.
Though, honestly, it was more luck than anything else. That and having Vanish bound to the same key as Stealth. ;p
xlpanda wrote:
Other mobs can see sleathed rogues and some ppl don't know that either so let ppl know. Communciation is good.
This is important.
I was in SM or BRD and the leader told me to sap a npc. I had been a bit farther behind the others scouting stealthed when I came around the corner and saw the humanoid they wanted sapped. He was up against the wall which meant coming in from the front, which would be an issue to begin with, but on either side of him were two dogs with the circles over their heads.
I pretty much had to tell them that those dogs have the ability, I call, lolstealth and can see me stealthed and that I couldn't sap him and we would have to attack.
I don't know what it is with some rogues not being able to sap in 5-mans. A guildie has a problem as well and wasted points into sub thinking she'll be unstoppable at sapping.
I have a combat build as well with no points in sub, and do fine.
Some points, in case you didn't know or aren't doing it:
1. You cannot sap targets that have (or are near other targets) stealth detection (the blue circle above their heads when you're in stealth)
2. You can TRY to sap said targets if you know how to distract properly. But it'll most likely result in your death.
3. NEVER stealth up to the front or even 'near' the side of a mob, because you will most likely be detected.
4. ALWAYS stealth behind or right near the side (more towards the back) of the mob
5. If a mob turns due to sensing you, stop moving (or move back very slowly). They'll get bored in a bit and go back to where they were facing.
6. Distract to where the mobs face AWAY from you.
7. You will run into mobs that resist, which means you have to find a way to get towards the backside of them
8. (as stated above) let the group know whether or not you can or cannot get to a target. Those marks aren't on the mobs permanently.
9. If the group is stupid and calls you a noob for not being able to stealth past 3 mobs to get to the one in the back, pull aggro, run to them and vanish.
10. If all else fails, you can TRY stealth potions, or just stop sapping all together.
Edited, Apr 30th 2008 1:05pm by xNocturnalSunx
I have a combat build as well with no points in sub, and do fine.
Some points, in case you didn't know or aren't doing it:
1. You cannot sap targets that have (or are near other targets) stealth detection (the blue circle above their heads when you're in stealth)
2. You can TRY to sap said targets if you know how to distract properly. But it'll most likely result in your death.
3. NEVER stealth up to the front or even 'near' the side of a mob, because you will most likely be detected.
4. ALWAYS stealth behind or right near the side (more towards the back) of the mob
5. If a mob turns due to sensing you, stop moving (or move back very slowly). They'll get bored in a bit and go back to where they were facing.
6. Distract to where the mobs face AWAY from you.
7. You will run into mobs that resist, which means you have to find a way to get towards the backside of them
8. (as stated above) let the group know whether or not you can or cannot get to a target. Those marks aren't on the mobs permanently.
9. If the group is stupid and calls you a noob for not being able to stealth past 3 mobs to get to the one in the back, pull aggro, run to them and vanish.
10. If all else fails, you can TRY stealth potions, or just stop sapping all together.
Edited, Apr 30th 2008 1:05pm by xNocturnalSunx
xNocturnalSunx wrote:
6. Distract to where the mobs face AWAY from you.
LMAO
I wonder how often people don't distract away from themselves. Probably to often.
It's true. I've seen rogues distract mobs, and they're still facing the rogues. Stupid, imo.
Wow. I almost feel better about myself :)
To the OP:
Sapping takes a little bit of practice. I know when I first started doing heroics I'd get nervous b/c a bad sap can wipe the group, and you don't want to be responsible. "Thanks for the repair bill, silly rogue" isn't fun to hear.
3. NEVER stealth up to the front or even 'near' the side of a mob, because you will most likely be detected.
This is true at first. After you get some practice, you'll be able to sap NPC's in the face. I use distract only if I think it's required to pull it off.
Thoughts on markings - I'm in a great group for heroics - 45 minute H Mechs are easy badges. Once you get a groove with your group, you'll be able to sap w/o the markings, you should just know which are the best. If you've got a pug tank that doesn't understand the markings - ask him which ones need to be CC'ed and which ones need to be burnt down. Generally we burn healers and mind control down first and sap the casters.
I'm combat mutilate and have no issues sapping, so it'll come. Now it's almost a challenge when the tank marks something waaay back....but that's why we've got vanish :)
To the OP:
Sapping takes a little bit of practice. I know when I first started doing heroics I'd get nervous b/c a bad sap can wipe the group, and you don't want to be responsible. "Thanks for the repair bill, silly rogue" isn't fun to hear.
Quote:
3. NEVER stealth up to the front or even 'near' the side of a mob, because you will most likely be detected.
This is true at first. After you get some practice, you'll be able to sap NPC's in the face. I use distract only if I think it's required to pull it off.
Thoughts on markings - I'm in a great group for heroics - 45 minute H Mechs are easy badges. Once you get a groove with your group, you'll be able to sap w/o the markings, you should just know which are the best. If you've got a pug tank that doesn't understand the markings - ask him which ones need to be CC'ed and which ones need to be burnt down. Generally we burn healers and mind control down first and sap the casters.
I'm combat mutilate and have no issues sapping, so it'll come. Now it's almost a challenge when the tank marks something waaay back....but that's why we've got vanish :)
L2sap :P
with judicious use of distract, you really shouldn't be having so much of a problem.
Besides the good points listed here, one other thing:
You probably will have mistakes. Make sure your party is far enough back, and by the gods, don't train the mobs back on your party. Say 'oops' and die gracefully or mash your vanish button. Mistakes will be much less painful if only you die.
with judicious use of distract, you really shouldn't be having so much of a problem.
Besides the good points listed here, one other thing:
You probably will have mistakes. Make sure your party is far enough back, and by the gods, don't train the mobs back on your party. Say 'oops' and die gracefully or mash your vanish button. Mistakes will be much less painful if only you die.
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
You probably will have mistakes. Make sure your party is far enough back, and by the gods, don't train the mobs back on your party. Say 'oops' and die gracefully or mash your vanish button. Mistakes will be much less painful if only you die.
Lord knows how many times I've hit garrote instead of sap.... but I moreso say "crap", instead of "oops"
xNocturnalSunx wrote:
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
You probably will have mistakes. Make sure your party is far enough back, and by the gods, don't train the mobs back on your party. Say 'oops' and die gracefully or mash your vanish button. Mistakes will be much less painful if only you die.
Lord knows how many times I've hit garrote instead of sap.... but I moreso say "crap", instead of "oops"
This is why there's no actions on the bar within two spaces of my sap button ;)
It usually just happens when I rush up to the mobs and stuff. I don't pay attention. If people are dilly dallying in the group, I notice the sap button more.
Scholar
36 posts
I also like the fact that sometimes the tank isn't paying attention and just sits there and doesn't pull for what seems like an eternity! Of course I will try to re-sap but sometimes I'm already headed back to the group anticipating the pull which doesn't happen until half of my sap timer is gone. Way to maximum the CC :)
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
xNocturnalSunx wrote:
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
You probably will have mistakes. Make sure your party is far enough back, and by the gods, don't train the mobs back on your party. Say 'oops' and die gracefully or mash your vanish button. Mistakes will be much less painful if only you die.
Lord knows how many times I've hit garrote instead of sap.... but I moreso say "crap", instead of "oops"
This is why there's no actions on the bar within two spaces of my sap button ;)
That's why my sap button is bound to Shift-Mouse 3 :) No mis-clicking.
xlpanda wrote:
I also like the fact that sometimes the tank isn't paying attention and just sits there and doesn't pull for what seems like an eternity! Of course I will try to re-sap but sometimes I'm already headed back to the group anticipating the pull which doesn't happen until half of my sap timer is gone. Way to maximum the CC :)
I hate when that happens. Seriously, when everyone says they're ready, then be ready to pull once sap is done. I've had multiple times to where I'm just standing by the mob, resapping until the group is pulled.
xNocturnalSunx wrote:
xlpanda wrote:
I also like the fact that sometimes the tank isn't paying attention and just sits there and doesn't pull for what seems like an eternity! Of course I will try to re-sap but sometimes I'm already headed back to the group anticipating the pull which doesn't happen until half of my sap timer is gone. Way to maximum the CC :)
I hate when that happens. Seriously, when everyone says they're ready, then be ready to pull once sap is done. I've had multiple times to where I'm just standing by the mob, resapping until the group is pulled.
Years of playing an intense hardcore CC class enchanter in EQ has given me some great ideas and habits. I setup a macro for sap the same way I did for mezz;
/g >> SAPD %T SAPD <<
When raiding I also add a /raid line with the same msg. %T will put the name of your target there. So it'll say >> SAPD Hogger SAPD <<
The reason I do it this way is because it's easy to see and it's quick to read. Some players get fancy with long *** stories and descriptions to be funny or witty. Yeah they're good for a laugh but after a couple of times the novelty wears off. Keep it plain and it keep it simple. Get the information out to your group a.s.a.p. and drop all the other unnecessary garbage. Same thing with my mage on sheep. A simple yet very effective >> SHEEPD %T SHEEPD <<. Nothing more.
Then I tell the group to wait for my sap/sheep msg. Until they see it then it isn't sapped. Sometimes tanks will pull after a distract because they get confused and think I sapped.
Sapping isn't like all the other CC methods. It takes more time and patience to get into a good position. For this then make sure you're always ready to sap. Think 2 steps ahead of the tank/puller and start making your way into sap position while the group is coming up to the next group. Don't sit back by the group and wait for them to call a sap if you know ahead of time you need to.
Just be careful not to hit your msg macro if a sap is resisted or mob is immune.
xNocturnalSunx wrote:
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
You probably will have mistakes. Make sure your party is far enough back, and by the gods, don't train the mobs back on your party. Say 'oops' and die gracefully or mash your vanish button. Mistakes will be much less painful if only you die.
Lord knows how many times I've hit garrote instead of sap.... but I moreso say "crap", instead of "oops"
For me it's blind. My sap target is still CC-ed and for a second or two I think I'm good. Then I realize I'm unstealthed and in the middle of an angry group of mobs.
It's embarrassing when I tell my group what happened but they always laugh.
A buddy of mine does this as well. I think his automatically sends a msg upon the sap landing saying 'sap is up for 45'. He's got the same for bladefury as well.
I was going to ask about that. A lock friend has an announcement when his banish is going to run out. Anyone know the addon?
xNocturnalSunx wrote:
I don't know what it is with some rogues not being able to sap in 5-mans. A guildie has a problem as well and wasted points into sub thinking she'll be unstoppable at sapping.
I went through the 5-man instances as combat, and sapping was sometimes difficult, but possible.
The place where it became a big pain was the entrance to TK - 50% of the mobs resisted distract, and they could really spot me easily. We tried sapping there only once I think, but it was really hard.
Since the hemo change I am tri-hemo specced, and I must say the ease of sapping with MoD it really noticeable. I can practically dance around the mobs. So it's not a complete waste of points.
ThomasMagnum wrote:
A buddy of mine does this as well. I think his automatically sends a msg upon the sap landing saying 'sap is up for 45'.
This might also be helpfull to prevent the tank pulling right after Distract, causing a wipe and then hearing "why wasn't he sapped ffs"...
(Yes this happens in PUG's.)
xNocturnalSunx wrote:
9. If the group is stupid and calls you a noob for not being able to stealth past 3 mobs to get to the one in the back, pull aggro, run to them and vanish.
9. If the group is stupid and calls you a noob for not being able to stealth past 3 mobs to get to the one in the back, pull aggro, run to them and vanish, laugh, and leave the group.
Much better IMO.
Recent Visitors: 43
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (43)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- CC for the combat rogue?
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC