Last night i had a 5 min debate about tanking with my bro
he said threat is the most important thing to a tank, i said threat is equally as importan as stamina and armor.
His arguement was if u have 15k armor and 12k hp but the mob walks away from u and attack ur party then u've failed as a tank. He says that tanks just need to produce a massive amount of threat while the party kills the mob.
My arguement was it doesn't matter if u hold the threat if u can't live you've failed as a tank. I used the example of my pally. I was tankin ZF on my pally, i had great gear and produced a nice amount of threat the party. Unfortunately a warlock just decided to start blasting searing pain over and over on everything which caused the warlock to die constantly. That shows it doesn't matter how much threat u produce any1 can hold the aggro if the party understands threat dynamics, but if u can't survive while holding the aggro u've failed as a tank
So i say threat, armor, and stamina are equally as important he says threat is the most important. What do u say?
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When you reach endgame raiding, stamina becomes the most important factor, as you said it doesn't matter if you can out threat everyone else, if the healers can't keep you alive you may as well have that warlock tank.
Threat is much like avoidance, once you reach a certain threshold it becomes less important. If you can out threat most of the dps in your raid, 50% more threat will help a little (those few people holding back will be able to go faster, 50% more stamina will help a lot.
Threat is much like avoidance, once you reach a certain threshold it becomes less important. If you can out threat most of the dps in your raid, 50% more threat will help a little (those few people holding back will be able to go faster, 50% more stamina will help a lot.
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When you reach endgame raiding, stamina becomes the most important factor, as you said it doesn't matter if you can out threat everyone else, if the healers can't keep you alive you may as well have that warlock tank.
Threat is much like avoidance, once you reach a certain threshold it becomes less important. If you can out threat most of the dps in your raid, 50% more threat will help a little (those few people holding back will be able to go faster, 50% more stamina will help a lot.
Threat is much like avoidance, once you reach a certain threshold it becomes less important. If you can out threat most of the dps in your raid, 50% more threat will help a little (those few people holding back will be able to go faster, 50% more stamina will help a lot.
i've never tanked end game but i second that
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So i say threat, armor, and stamina are equally as important he says threat is the most important. What do u say?
/agree
Threat, and being able to live are equally important. Where i see the catch come in is that threat generation, and base stamina are the only factors that we have 100% control on. Healers have to be on there game to keep us alive no matter how many HP we have, and DPS has a responsibilty to manage there threat so the do not pass us.
So i guess you can say that the most important thing is having a group that can pull the heads out of there asses and think for themselves.
This is an open and shut argument..
Survivability is a tank's number one concern, hands down, any day and at any level on content. This means avoidence, armor, HP, blah blah blah. All of the stuff that comes together to keep you alive.
A tank's SECOND priority (which is still a high priority) is threat. His argument that if mobs start running off in all directions you fail at a tank shows that he's a stupid @#$% who I never want tanking for an alt of mine (or DPSing when I'm tanking) -- not to put too light a point on it. Your DPS can ALWAYS throttle themselves and back down to the amount of threat that you can dish out. You will NEVER EVER get such nice treatment from a boss that's trying to smash your face in though.
If the mob starts running all over the place killing people, YOU FAIL AS DPS -- learn to Omen.. geez.
EDIT: Way to post this on all of the forums in Alla, btw....
Edited, Apr 29th 2008 12:50pm by Losie
Survivability is a tank's number one concern, hands down, any day and at any level on content. This means avoidence, armor, HP, blah blah blah. All of the stuff that comes together to keep you alive.
A tank's SECOND priority (which is still a high priority) is threat. His argument that if mobs start running off in all directions you fail at a tank shows that he's a stupid @#$% who I never want tanking for an alt of mine (or DPSing when I'm tanking) -- not to put too light a point on it. Your DPS can ALWAYS throttle themselves and back down to the amount of threat that you can dish out. You will NEVER EVER get such nice treatment from a boss that's trying to smash your face in though.
If the mob starts running all over the place killing people, YOU FAIL AS DPS -- learn to Omen.. geez.
EDIT: Way to post this on all of the forums in Alla, btw....
Edited, Apr 29th 2008 12:50pm by Losie
I agree with the last statement, if any tank, (warrior pally or druid) is focused on one mob, and dps'ers focus on another they are going to steal your aggro, Marking is very important in any raid and kill order must be followed for survival most of the time.
http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=21;mid=1209479521102363292;page=1#m1209497363327164528
This is the exact same post on the Main Forum. I'm not going to continue posting in this one (on the Paladin Forum) if a discussion starts.
This is the exact same post on the Main Forum. I'm not going to continue posting in this one (on the Paladin Forum) if a discussion starts.
Losie wrote:
If the mob starts running all over the place killing people, YOU FAIL AS DPS -- learn to Omen.. geez.
There are exceptions. I was in MgT as a DPS, and the Warrior wouldn't T-Clap, tab target, AOE taunt, ANYTHING to help get aggro on a secondary target. As soon as the healer cast one heal, all non-CCed mobs were on her and she was dead. That Warrior failed as a tank.
In most cases this quote is true, but it's not 100% true in every case. Just to make things clear in that you can indeed fail as a tank by not putting out enough (or in this case, any) threat.
They are all equally important.
Threat per second though is one of those things that can make or break a raid, also as much about gear as it is knowing the class and rotations. My old MT would have threat pulled off him at 1400-1500 dps. Which forced our dps to hold back and you could feel it hindering on burn fights where you just need to burn a boss down.
New MT can easily deal with dps doing 1700-2100 dps without pulling aggro. Which is so fricking nice.
Threat per second though is one of those things that can make or break a raid, also as much about gear as it is knowing the class and rotations. My old MT would have threat pulled off him at 1400-1500 dps. Which forced our dps to hold back and you could feel it hindering on burn fights where you just need to burn a boss down.
New MT can easily deal with dps doing 1700-2100 dps without pulling aggro. Which is so fricking nice.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
This is funny!! I have this debate inside my head all the time, but in the end, for end game runs Threat is third. A good dps can manage their threat. Something as simple as..... stop attacking? Yeah that's it.
I spent all my free time getting gear for avoidance. I'm >5% away from 102.4 I also have a defence of over 490. I really thought that and 10k health would do it so I could start tanking Heroics. Nope. I know I can hold the threat. They would pound me, even with a good healer, and then I die (and so do they). Funny part is, if you die typically your group does. They depend on you to live and get your butt kicked in. Stam is #1. Def/Avoid probally 2nd and Threat 3rd. As a Prot Pally it's pretty easy to get and create threat, and with good dps'rs watching their Omen your good. No life, no tank, no group.
Now understand a good Healer is vital to any group. I still think that a prime Tank and Healer are key (the reason I've built both to understand them!!!). Dps'rs are almost a dime a dozen (though this shadow priest I had in a group once was something magical...). I think threat is still a very high on the list. I mean, top three is pretty hot! And vital with mulit mob pulls (a tank who can't hold the agro on more than single mob pulls are a healer's worst nightmare. I mean it's great they can tank the boss, but it's the trash getting there that you have to worry about), but living through the hits so the healer can keep you above 20% life should be your top of the list.
So in case you missed it, Stam.
I spent all my free time getting gear for avoidance. I'm >5% away from 102.4 I also have a defence of over 490. I really thought that and 10k health would do it so I could start tanking Heroics. Nope. I know I can hold the threat. They would pound me, even with a good healer, and then I die (and so do they). Funny part is, if you die typically your group does. They depend on you to live and get your butt kicked in. Stam is #1. Def/Avoid probally 2nd and Threat 3rd. As a Prot Pally it's pretty easy to get and create threat, and with good dps'rs watching their Omen your good. No life, no tank, no group.
Now understand a good Healer is vital to any group. I still think that a prime Tank and Healer are key (the reason I've built both to understand them!!!). Dps'rs are almost a dime a dozen (though this shadow priest I had in a group once was something magical...). I think threat is still a very high on the list. I mean, top three is pretty hot! And vital with mulit mob pulls (a tank who can't hold the agro on more than single mob pulls are a healer's worst nightmare. I mean it's great they can tank the boss, but it's the trash getting there that you have to worry about), but living through the hits so the healer can keep you above 20% life should be your top of the list.
So in case you missed it, Stam.
They are not and will never be "equally important." Threat generation is always a secondary concern to survival. DPS can hold back a bit, a lot if necessary. Healers can not magically produce better than their best ability to heal. Think of the logistics of tanking. Your number 1 priority as a warrior or pally is to keep up shield block/holy shield. These are non-essential to threat generation (Holy shield helps, but it is certainly non-essential), but absolutely imperative for survival. No good tank would ever spend the GCD using revenge, devastate, consecrate or loading a seal when their shield block is down.
The point at which you "outgear" your current tanking set is when the dynamic flips in the other direction. Your stam and armor become significantly less of a factor than your ability to hold aggro, but assuming even gear levels across the raid/group, Survival > Threat. Once you are 100% sure you can survive the fight given decent healing, THEN you can focus on threat generation.
The point at which you "outgear" your current tanking set is when the dynamic flips in the other direction. Your stam and armor become significantly less of a factor than your ability to hold aggro, but assuming even gear levels across the raid/group, Survival > Threat. Once you are 100% sure you can survive the fight given decent healing, THEN you can focus on threat generation.
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Threat generation is always a secondary concern to survival. DPS can hold back a bit, a lot if necessary.
The one thing you are forgeting is that survival includes being healed. If you don't put out enough threat to hold aggro against your healer, then you fail as a tank.
I'm a healer. This became very evident to me back when I started hitting heroics. Especially the pulls where mobs could not be CC'd. The tank will take massive amounts of damage, and very quickly. When I had a crappy tank, I would pull threat very quickly. And it is not like I can stop healing to let my aggro drop.
So this whole discussion about one being more important than the other is kind of useless. As a tank, you need to have both survivability and threat generation. One without the other makes you fail as a tank.
That would be like a healer saying +heal is more important than a mana pool or mana regen. +heal is useless if you can only do 5 heals. Mana regen and mana pools are useless if you don't have enough heal to stay on top of the damage being dealt.
Putting out enough threat to out-do the healers is a given. As in, you will never have to gear for it. Healing generates 1 threat for every 2 HP healed. All Holy damage generates 1.9 threat for every damage and 1 threat for every white damage. Things like taunt also secure threat without actually "generating" threat.
Thunderclap generates around 1.8x the damage done to secure threat.
Swipe is easily spammable and generates large amounts of threat across multiple targets as well.
That would be like a healer saying +heal is more important than a mana pool or mana regen. +heal is useless if you can only do 5 heals. Mana regen and mana pools are useless if you don't have enough heal to stay on top of the damage being dealt.
And yet, lo and behold, if you talk to any good healer (like any other good player) they have a stat priority in their mind about which is more important to get gear for first. Without a stat priority it is completely impossible to compare two pieces of gear unless they have the same stats on them and one has higher values across the board.
More to the point as to "which is more important" tanks will (and routinely do) collect pieces of gear with stam and avoidance on it, but with 0 threat building stats. It is exceedingly rare to see a good tank wearing anything "of strength" and claiming it as essential to their threat gen. This is a clear example of survival being prioritized higher than threat for gearing.
More to the point, when a tank is dead his threat generation becomes exactly 0 and he is removed from the threat table. Assuming no other threat generation the tank is holding threat off the healer (and presumably all DPS) for 3 of every 8-10 seconds from just taunting. A dead tank is useless. A living tank, assuming they are not the absolute worst player in the world, is always better than that. I could teach a 5 year old to tank better than just having no tank at all.
Thunderclap generates around 1.8x the damage done to secure threat.
Swipe is easily spammable and generates large amounts of threat across multiple targets as well.
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That would be like a healer saying +heal is more important than a mana pool or mana regen. +heal is useless if you can only do 5 heals. Mana regen and mana pools are useless if you don't have enough heal to stay on top of the damage being dealt.
And yet, lo and behold, if you talk to any good healer (like any other good player) they have a stat priority in their mind about which is more important to get gear for first. Without a stat priority it is completely impossible to compare two pieces of gear unless they have the same stats on them and one has higher values across the board.
More to the point as to "which is more important" tanks will (and routinely do) collect pieces of gear with stam and avoidance on it, but with 0 threat building stats. It is exceedingly rare to see a good tank wearing anything "of strength" and claiming it as essential to their threat gen. This is a clear example of survival being prioritized higher than threat for gearing.
More to the point, when a tank is dead his threat generation becomes exactly 0 and he is removed from the threat table. Assuming no other threat generation the tank is holding threat off the healer (and presumably all DPS) for 3 of every 8-10 seconds from just taunting. A dead tank is useless. A living tank, assuming they are not the absolute worst player in the world, is always better than that. I could teach a 5 year old to tank better than just having no tank at all.
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