End game - SM/Ruin or SL/SL ?Follow

There is no such thing as "end game and pvp"

For "end game" sm/ruin would be good if you specc into malediction.

Edited, Apr 24th 2008 1:48pm by Oakenwrath

For PVE, in general, neither are widely used anymore. SM/Ruin will have some strengths in 5-mans and 10-mans that no other Spec does, especially in variety of damage sources, but in the end the numbers are just short of many of the other options. SL/SL is quite a terrible Damage source in any PVE situations, and can be used for solo grinds effectively - nothing past.

What SuccySac spec lacks in survivability, longevity and logistics it makes up for very well in pure damage output. In a situation where the Warlock's main source of mana is lifetaps which can be healed off without much a burden (10-mans for instance) this build will be able to surpass SM/Ruin.

Where SM/Ruin can come into decent play is in the fact that it allows a few more options with the remaining points. The ability to snag Dark Pact makes this a very powerful Burn-grind (SBolt SBolt SBolt dead) build with a decent ability to retain mana, while doubling as a first-rate 5-man Lock and a second rate 10/25-man.

It depends here more where you're guild is in progression, here. I will say that this build can be useful in the fact that it gives a good Shadow Damage percent, mid-grade SBolt spam setup, and enough points to round out Malediction (allowing you to take both a SBolt-spam Destro role AND Malediction lock role -- potentially very appealing.) If you already have 2 Malediction Locks, though, then you're still better off Raiding with SuccySac.

SL/SL build is a great survivability build allowing you to wreak havoc on a battlefield of many. While SoulLink is a huge boost to survivability versus low numbers (arena play), the Siphon Life factor is phased out especially in 2v2. This leaves options for a deeper Demonology build, or a shifting of points around within Affliction or Destruction to meet your Arena team's needs.

Siphon life is one of the longest-lasting DoTs a Lock has, which means in places like AV it's entirely possible to have more than 10 people DoTed in the heat of a big confrontation, giving survavabilty to the Lock comparible to no one. Mix in Felpup for Devour Magic and Resistances and you have yourself a BG God. While the damage is comparably slower versus minor targets, enough Siphons stacked allows for 'free' Lifetaps, resulting in a Seed-Spam which quite litterally makes bar-none the BEST Class/Spec combo in the game in large battles.

Real bottom line here is it'll be hard to top out in both PVP and PVE with the same spec, and SM/Ruin and SL/SL definatly arn't your best bet for middle-grounds.

I suggest sticking Affliction-based with 11 in Destruction until you overcome the hit% problem with SpellHit, then your options open up depending on what gear your sitting on (T4/T6 is great Destro, T5 makes surprisingly good Demonology.) This route will allow you to perform in BG (Instant-DoT Spam), Arena (UA/IHoT/CoEx/SBurn), keep up in 5-mans (11 Destro + Dark Pact), assist in 10/25-Mans (Malediction or Doom/11 Destro, Imp), and Drain Tank/Fear Juggle in the downtime.

GREAT info here guys!!!! Thank you!!!!

Endgame PvP you can do UA, too. Some kind of mixed up 42/17/? crap? I just watched UA/Spriest run to 1850 in 2 hours, so I know UA can work.

I just respecced out of 41/0/20 to 21/0/41 and doubled my DPS from 500 to 1000. I know a lot of locks use 0/21/40 for DS, but I really like Siphon Life. My healers appreciate it too.

First off, like the poster mentioned above, you can not spec 21/0/41. You probably meant 21/0/40 since you said you liked Siphon life.

Secondly, I HIGHLY doubt you doubled your dps from 500-1000 unless you had a terrible UA rotation or upgraded from greens to full epics. For you to have had 500 dps at some points, im gonna bet your gear isnt AMAZING and you probably have not hit the requirements for 0/21/40.

As for UA vs SL/S&F, UA higher dps on bosses. I can see how your dps might have gone up a little since the UA build will do worse on trash but it should give you a significant increase in DPS. 0/21/40 would be better dps than 21/0/40 even without hitting the minimum requirements. DS and Demonic Aegis are pretty big dps boost when compared to the .5 seconds off Corruption, SL, and Nightfall. SL will BARELY give any dps boost since its only viable on boss fights where it can actually finish ticking and nightfall will barely proc.

If you wanna do DPS, I suggest with sticking to UA for now and learning a better rotation for bosses and trash.

There are requirements for serious raiding, though. Casual raiding, SL/Destro might work. For serious raiding, that is not an option whatsoever. Assuming +1400dmg raid buffed, SL will still do less damage than Sbolt (i.e. not worth casting), and Corruption will average out to an extra 125dps (very rough, in reality less). However, your Shadow Bolts are hitting for ~200dps less (including crits, 25%). I fail to see how that could possible be a damage increase.

Malediction/Ruin surpasses UA if your raid needs Malediction and you otherwise have the gear to support standard 0/21/40 destro.

For PvP, SL/SL is a standard one. Some people like Felguard, but in 2v2 and 3v3 as a caster, they're a much smaller threat than someone with a felpup. I hate UA locks with a passion, but they seem to work better with a DPS-heavy team, where they can spread a healer thin and keep any dispels from happening. I don't know PvP locks particularly well, though.

No requirements for WoW? Is that a joke? Look at your gear and read the item. As for "talent" requirements at 70, you're right, there are no solid requirements to do things. But if you want to actually get better, requirements start to jump out.

It isn't an opinion. It's simple mathematics. This game is full of numbers and percentages. Just theorycraft your stats and talents and you will come out with a number (obviously with perfect conditions for both set ups). UA theorycraft outcome IS higher than 21/0/40 on boss fights. Obviously on trash and bosses though, a lot depends on your group. If they are downing trash in 5 seconds then UA will probably drop dps on trash.

Edit: Banatu, I'm talking about end game raiding specs, not PvP.


Edited, Apr 25th 2008 6:43pm by Tugnus

Tugnus, I know you are. But you admitted to not knowing a hell of a lot about pvp, I thought I'd throw my two bits in.