One of the biggest problems I see with Arenas with Ret Paladins is the lack of a healing debuff, which all other melees seem to have (With the exception of Shamans who have a six second CD for an interrupt)
My idea was to have CS give a healing Debuff, I mean, its higher in the talent trees than MS, much higher than Aimed shot (which did not originally have the debuff)
The first thing I can see is yells of: "OMG PALLY FAVORITISM DEY GET A HAELING DEBUF OMGZ" I think the way to balance this would be to replace the seal. Sure this would cripple us against any class that can speed up, but at the same time give a whole new edge in PvP
In fact, split CS: The first being what we have now, the second overriding our seal.
Or better yet, give us a new seal. I doubt this would ever be implemented. But it would allow for less cookie cutter teams in Arenas. You rarely see any high ranking Ret Paladins, with a few exceptions of course.
But hey I am just rambling on here.
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Do you think this would be overpowered?Follow
It depends on whether Vindication gives a stamina debuff or not, which I think it does. Reducing stam by 15% AND half healing would be overpowered. I think ret's real weakness is lack of reliable spell interrupt, especially for ally Pallys who can't arcane torrent. Warriors have pummel, rogues have kick and about a million stuns, feral druids get a limited one from their arena gloves, so why not paladins.
So I counter your proposal with adding a 1 or 2s kick like effect to crusader strike, it will have a lower cooldown than pummel (10s vs 6s) so reducing the length of interruption by half (4s to 2s) would be balanced imo.
This would also make retri more raid viable as they would be able to fill the role of other melee classes (who lets face it, are their competition for places) a bit better.
So I counter your proposal with adding a 1 or 2s kick like effect to crusader strike, it will have a lower cooldown than pummel (10s vs 6s) so reducing the length of interruption by half (4s to 2s) would be balanced imo.
This would also make retri more raid viable as they would be able to fill the role of other melee classes (who lets face it, are their competition for places) a bit better.
in the eternal struggle to make all things balanced, things will remain unbalanced. a kick-like effect would make pallies OP like none other. keep in mind a rogue and warrior must spend energy/rage to interupt...of which takes away from their burst. now imagine a pally with heavy dmg, immunity, and interupts. what would one do against that? 3v3 and 5v5 is a Ret pallies home. leave 2v2 to the warlocks and druids.
the -15% stam debuff from Vindication is the most overvalued and misunderstood ability. it creates a 15% decrease to the max hp. the hit to apply the debuff will generally be at least 15% of the enemy's hp. its like taking a sip of water and then shinking the glass. (note: i dont recall if this debuff can be applied through a priest shield, etc)
Quote:
It depends on whether Vindication gives a stamina debuff or not, which I think it does. Reducing stam by 15% AND half healing would be overpowered.
the -15% stam debuff from Vindication is the most overvalued and misunderstood ability. it creates a 15% decrease to the max hp. the hit to apply the debuff will generally be at least 15% of the enemy's hp. its like taking a sip of water and then shinking the glass. (note: i dont recall if this debuff can be applied through a priest shield, etc)
-15% all stat, and -15% healing done and recieved. nothing crazy. prolly give them a slot in 5s, MS the target, send a Ret on the healer to nerf healing a bit more.
boost their 2s slightly so you can actually hope to DPS something down with a healer on him.
boost their 2s slightly so you can actually hope to DPS something down with a healer on him.
For referene I am in 3v3s, 2v2 is impossible as a paladin (well im my opinion of course)
The reason that rogues, hunters, and warriors got a healing debuff is because they are classes that cannot heal. Healing classes have the ability to outlast their enemies sheerly for the fact that they can be brought down to low health and most likely heal up to full, while the warrior or rogue cannot and so must just try to burst down while interrupting heals. The aforementioned classes have a finite amount of lifespan in combat--they will eventually be taken down if there are no bandages or potions, whilst healing classes have an infinite time in combat, as they can heal and regenerate mana (unlike health) in battle.
As such, the healing debuff is to try to level the playing field for these classes (and work very well). Since they get less HPM with the debuff up, they cannot have, in a sense, "burst healing" to recover themselves and gain the advantage over a melee non-healing class that they whittle down.
Basically, in a sense, healing debuffs were put in as a way to overcome healer-players that fought battles of attrition.
Hunters, actually, received a healing debuff as a redesign of Aimed Shot, which no longer is the powerhouse it was before, and only good as an opener. They received it because hunters were incredibly underrepresented in Arena, as well. I'm of the mind that they didn't really need a healing buff, but it was simply a way to make them look more desirable to take in an Arena team.
Retribution paladins, equipped with both a heal spell for themselves and a healing debuff for their enemies, which tip the favors towards the paladins--which may not be a bad idea, but of course, we all want to be wary of unbalancing in the opposite direction when we balance.
I have to admit, my opinion on retribution paladins' damage capability is biased. I am of the mind that as a healer/tank hybrid, a paladin should only have the DPS capabilities to do "well enough" in PvE and PvP while providing lots of support for groups, in the form of buffs and debuffs. Inherent class effects of the Battlemaster enchant (though there is Judgment of Light), something along that vein.
And, frankly, a healing debuff is in line with my suggestion. It's simply that I don't see a healing class getting a healing debuff, which is (one of the reasons) why I protested the healing debuff on Flametongue Weapon when that was in the patch notes. In fact, I'd rather see Ret paladins having an on-attack proc that allows all party members in 40 yards take 25% more healing.
As such, the healing debuff is to try to level the playing field for these classes (and work very well). Since they get less HPM with the debuff up, they cannot have, in a sense, "burst healing" to recover themselves and gain the advantage over a melee non-healing class that they whittle down.
Basically, in a sense, healing debuffs were put in as a way to overcome healer-players that fought battles of attrition.
Hunters, actually, received a healing debuff as a redesign of Aimed Shot, which no longer is the powerhouse it was before, and only good as an opener. They received it because hunters were incredibly underrepresented in Arena, as well. I'm of the mind that they didn't really need a healing buff, but it was simply a way to make them look more desirable to take in an Arena team.
Retribution paladins, equipped with both a heal spell for themselves and a healing debuff for their enemies, which tip the favors towards the paladins--which may not be a bad idea, but of course, we all want to be wary of unbalancing in the opposite direction when we balance.
I have to admit, my opinion on retribution paladins' damage capability is biased. I am of the mind that as a healer/tank hybrid, a paladin should only have the DPS capabilities to do "well enough" in PvE and PvP while providing lots of support for groups, in the form of buffs and debuffs. Inherent class effects of the Battlemaster enchant (though there is Judgment of Light), something along that vein.
And, frankly, a healing debuff is in line with my suggestion. It's simply that I don't see a healing class getting a healing debuff, which is (one of the reasons) why I protested the healing debuff on Flametongue Weapon when that was in the patch notes. In fact, I'd rather see Ret paladins having an on-attack proc that allows all party members in 40 yards take 25% more healing.
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Raglu wrote:
...,whilst healing classes have an infinite time in combat,...
Calling it infinite is a huge stretch. It's a known fact that apart from druids, once a healer is out of mana, they tend to stay that way. A healers combat utility is directly related to the mana supply, and a healers mana decreases proportionally with the amount of damage that they recieve.
A warrior that keeps hitting, critting, interrupting, stunning (mace proc), and fearing a healer will drain a healers mana supply fast enough to make having the advantage to heal yourself pretty much a novelty.
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