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Moonkin - Lets talk about numbers/stats!Follow
Scholar
26 posts
I recently started raiding with my Moonkin (Kara & Grulls) and also started collection badges and honor to get new gear.
I would like to talk about numbers...and stats....my main focus is PVE raiding (i also like to pvp, to do BGs, but not arena).
So, i know spell crit is moonkins best friend...mine now in moonkin form is around 24% - so my moonfire crits for around 34% and my wraith and starfire crits for around 27-28%. Is it ok? Good? Should i improve my spell crit or should i aim to improve other stats? Is it worth to improve spell hit - already have +4% from Balance of Power...so my cap is +152 spell hit, right? Im far from it...any hint how to improve it? How about spell penetration? And spell haste?
Thanks in advance for any help! And sorry for my poor english...:/
Gem, enchant, and gear for spell-hit first. Up to the hit-cap, it's the biggest increase in DPS you can get. Spell penetration is worthless for PvE, none of the raid bosses have been observed having noticeable spell resistance; either they're immune (Alar and fire damage, for example), or they're not.
My caster is a warlock, where spell crit is only a priority up to around 20% tooltip to keep ISB up. After that, spell damage is more useful. I'm not sure how important crit rating is for Moonkin compared to spell damage.
My caster is a warlock, where spell crit is only a priority up to around 20% tooltip to keep ISB up. After that, spell damage is more useful. I'm not sure how important crit rating is for Moonkin compared to spell damage.
I'd say, if you have a ~25% Base Crit, you're already set for ZA and possibly BT when it comes to crit chance. Frankly, my moonkin is stuck around 20% unless I sacrifice over 200+ Spell Damage.
The Spell Hit is good, if you can get it. I don't see much of it outside of enchants and gems. Go With Astarin on that. It is the biggest increase to DPS is every spell cast deals damage, instead of being resisted. [Edit] Though I only say this because it is what I constantly hear but nolonger believe [/edit]
You should not, however, sacrifice Spell damage to get Crit and Hit way up there. Thankfully you're already a Moonkin, meaning you should have picked up the +damage talents to your spells. Off the top of my head, I'd say it adds ~150-200+spell on average. If your in Kara, Gruuls, I'd say you need to have at least 500+ total... and thats at least, I'd suggest you get 700+, if you can afford it.
I don't know your gear or current +dmg, so /bear/ with me if I said anything redundant.
Edited, Apr 24th 2008 3:16am by JaxomZero
The Spell Hit is good, if you can get it. I don't see much of it outside of enchants and gems. Go With Astarin on that. It is the biggest increase to DPS is every spell cast deals damage, instead of being resisted. [Edit] Though I only say this because it is what I constantly hear but nolonger believe [/edit]
You should not, however, sacrifice Spell damage to get Crit and Hit way up there. Thankfully you're already a Moonkin, meaning you should have picked up the +damage talents to your spells. Off the top of my head, I'd say it adds ~150-200+spell on average. If your in Kara, Gruuls, I'd say you need to have at least 500+ total... and thats at least, I'd suggest you get 700+, if you can afford it.
I don't know your gear or current +dmg, so /bear/ with me if I said anything redundant.
Edited, Apr 24th 2008 3:16am by JaxomZero
Spell Hit is important. For raiding, against bosses every 1% of hit you can get towards cap results in a 1% DPS increase.
Try and save up your money and get Spellstrike Hood and Belt of Blasting made. They're expensive, but well worth it. They're much easier to get since 2.4 when they changed it so you can buy Primal Nether and Nether Vortex off the AH now.
I had it a bit easier because I have a 63 Mage alt who is a Spellfire Tailor. To save more money I also farmed the Primals to make Might and asked all my friends if they could spare their transmutes to make them.
In my opinion, one of the first Badge of Justice purchases you should make is either Pauldrons of Tribal Fury or Moon-Walkers. Both items provide a substantial amount of +hit for 60 badges a piece.
If you still can't reach the +hit cap with gems, you might want to think about getting Spellstrike Pants made as well.
If you aren't already, get Revered with Sha'tar (run any of the Tempest Keep instances, Mechanar, Botanica, and Arcatraz) as soon as possible for Glyph of Power (+22 spell damage, +14 spell hit enchant to head).
Those are just some of the items you can use to gear up without worrying about getting lucky for drops and rolling against other casters in your group. Once you can reach the hit cap with gear alone, then you can start swapping out your +hit and +hit/damage gems for +damage or +crit/damage. I'm at the point where I'll usually use Runed Living Ruby (+9 damage) in red slots, and Potent Noble Topaz (+4 crit, +5 damage) in yellow slots.
Spell Haste isn't something you need to worry about at the moment. I think I read that you don't really start to benefit from it until you get to T6 content.
Good luck!
And for reference, my armory link: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kilrogg&n=Amizael
Try and save up your money and get Spellstrike Hood and Belt of Blasting made. They're expensive, but well worth it. They're much easier to get since 2.4 when they changed it so you can buy Primal Nether and Nether Vortex off the AH now.
I had it a bit easier because I have a 63 Mage alt who is a Spellfire Tailor. To save more money I also farmed the Primals to make Might and asked all my friends if they could spare their transmutes to make them.
In my opinion, one of the first Badge of Justice purchases you should make is either Pauldrons of Tribal Fury or Moon-Walkers. Both items provide a substantial amount of +hit for 60 badges a piece.
If you still can't reach the +hit cap with gems, you might want to think about getting Spellstrike Pants made as well.
If you aren't already, get Revered with Sha'tar (run any of the Tempest Keep instances, Mechanar, Botanica, and Arcatraz) as soon as possible for Glyph of Power (+22 spell damage, +14 spell hit enchant to head).
Those are just some of the items you can use to gear up without worrying about getting lucky for drops and rolling against other casters in your group. Once you can reach the hit cap with gear alone, then you can start swapping out your +hit and +hit/damage gems for +damage or +crit/damage. I'm at the point where I'll usually use Runed Living Ruby (+9 damage) in red slots, and Potent Noble Topaz (+4 crit, +5 damage) in yellow slots.
Spell Haste isn't something you need to worry about at the moment. I think I read that you don't really start to benefit from it until you get to T6 content.
Good luck!
And for reference, my armory link: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kilrogg&n=Amizael
Scryer's Bloodgem - 32 spell hit rating (too bad if you happen to be Aldor)
Ashyen's Gift - 21 Spell hit rating (Cenarion Exp)
Ashyen's Gift - 21 Spell hit rating (Cenarion Exp)
[Note: this is for PvE, PvP would be too complicated to work with for me]
I've recently been thinking about how much I hear the talk about + to Hit for spells. How if it doesn't hit it's no damage/wasted mana, and for longer fights, the reduction of miss/resist chance is equal to an increase of Damage/DPS.
~And for those of you who TL:DR, look at the end.
That may be true for normal casters... but druids, or any other caster who's spell crits = +100% damage... its not.
Think about it... If the increase of the chance of hitting = + the same number in DPS... then wouldn't an increase in the chance of Double Damage have a similar effect?
Say every spell you cast does on average 100 Damage... If it hits 97% of the time, you can say instead, your spells do on average 97 damage. But if you have a 20% chance of dealing instead 200 damage, your average spell damage can go back up (by some complicated formula I don't wan to dig into yet) and counterbalance the loss due to resistance/miss.
My point is, Diminishing Returns... in the original economics term of the word. At what point does increasing +hit add less DPS than +crit? which would be the point where +crit is more important than +hit.
For +hit the cap is at a total of 99%. Nothing you can do will reduce the chance to miss below 1%. I believe the PVE stats go:
At no difference of level: Base Hit % = 96%
At 1 level higher mob: 95%
At 2 level higher mob: 94%
At 3 level higher mob: 83%
+hit%| 70Mob 71 72 73
0%: | 38 51 63 202 <~ +hit needed to reach cap.
2%: | 13 38 51 189
4%: | 0 0 13 152 (Full Balance of Power)
5%: | 0 0 0 139 (BoP+ Draenei Inspiring Presence)
7%: | 0 0 0 114 (BoP+ Totem of Wrath)
8%: | 0 0 0 101 (BoP+ToW+Inspiring Presence)
In other words, if a Druid takes balance of power (+4%) Any +hit will only improve long term DPS on a mob lvl 72 or over. And a druid with Balance of Power in a party with a Shammy (using +3% wrath totem) OR a Draenei would only benefit if the Target Mob were 73 or higher.
Meaning, a Druid in a decently geared group of any form would not benefit from excessive +hit except against a ??Boss or the odd 73+ mobs.
On the other hand, +crit will always result in an increase in long term DPS no mater the mob, unless Mobs have been confirmed to have a resilience stat? Now your resulting Crit Rate is always modified by your Hit rate. A 20% crit rate at +hit Cap of 99% is 20 * .99 = 19.8%. 25 * .99 = 24.75%. And if the druid did not have Balance of power and no +hit... 20 * .96 = 19.2%. 25 * .96 = 24%. And lets say against a lvl 73 mob and no +hit... 20 *.83 = 16.6%. 25 * .83 = 20.75%. Etc. etc.
So the +crit and resulting % do not = an exact resulting +DPS of equal value, but a comparison of +hit and +crit is the resulting change of DPS.
... but? Math time: 100 Spells fired at average of 100 Damage, Damage will sum up to (ignoring Gear/talents for now);
Hit% * Average Damage * (1 + (crit% * .50)) = Average Damage per Spell
A druid who has Vengeance: 100% crit bonus damage instead of the base 50% bonus damage;
Hit% * Average Damage * (1 + (crit% * 1.0)) = Average Damage per Spell
At this point, a druid benefits almost as much from +hit as from +crit to their DPS. But if a druid starts adding in their Talents, do not forget Natures Grace, which allows you to cast more spells per second, thus increasing your DPS even further. And of course the many spells that increase your crit% based on the particular spell.
Modifying the equation (crudely) for a druid with Vengence and Nature's Grace:
Hit% * Average Damage * (1.00 + crit%) + (crit% * Hit% * Average Damage * (1.00 + crit%) *.5/Cast time) = Average Damage Per Spell
Sooo... being as you might be a bit confused as to why the Crit% got added into the equation a number of times due to Natures grace... you must remember. When chain-casting a spell, if the crit of the first spell allows the second spell to be cast with .5 seconds less... its as if .5 seconds worth of the spell were cast in the first spell, which increases the effective damage of the first spell. (only on the presumption that a second damaging spell is cast).
I may not have presented the equation in the correct format, but based on what I remember about statistics, the last formula for average damage per spell could be nested with infinitely smaller contributions due to Nature's Grasp. Because of this, I believe that we can assume, that with Nature's Grasp all increases to Crit% are worth 1/2*cast time % more DPS than without.
~For those of you who TL;DR'd...
Any druid who is appropriately organized their talents for PvE would benefit more from +crit than from +hit. If the Druid is finding their spells hitting less frequently or their DPS is suffering, then that druid needs to speak with the raid leader to see if an Totem of Wrath Weilding Shammy could be put in his party... or at least some other spellcasters so that they at least benefit from free Crit%. And if you are Alliance, a spellcasting Draenei of any kind will help.
Then again, if you find that none of this helps your druid hit your enemies... get off this forum and get to 70 already... The biggest increase to DPS is level.
[Sorry for the rant, I realized far too late what it had truly become.]
[Edit] One last note, I think that a ridiculously high Crit rate is a bad thing... because you'll only be able to cast 5 spells before you rip agro right off the tank. and your have to voluntarily hold back your dps, lest you get smeared and wipe the raid, or worse... /gkick. So, again don't go for straight crit rate. [/Edit]
Edited, Apr 24th 2008 3:20am by JaxomZero
I've recently been thinking about how much I hear the talk about + to Hit for spells. How if it doesn't hit it's no damage/wasted mana, and for longer fights, the reduction of miss/resist chance is equal to an increase of Damage/DPS.
~And for those of you who TL:DR, look at the end.
That may be true for normal casters... but druids, or any other caster who's spell crits = +100% damage... its not.
Think about it... If the increase of the chance of hitting = + the same number in DPS... then wouldn't an increase in the chance of Double Damage have a similar effect?
Say every spell you cast does on average 100 Damage... If it hits 97% of the time, you can say instead, your spells do on average 97 damage. But if you have a 20% chance of dealing instead 200 damage, your average spell damage can go back up (by some complicated formula I don't wan to dig into yet) and counterbalance the loss due to resistance/miss.
My point is, Diminishing Returns... in the original economics term of the word. At what point does increasing +hit add less DPS than +crit? which would be the point where +crit is more important than +hit.
For +hit the cap is at a total of 99%. Nothing you can do will reduce the chance to miss below 1%. I believe the PVE stats go:
At no difference of level: Base Hit % = 96%
At 1 level higher mob: 95%
At 2 level higher mob: 94%
At 3 level higher mob: 83%
+hit%| 70Mob 71 72 73
0%: | 38 51 63 202 <~ +hit needed to reach cap.
2%: | 13 38 51 189
4%: | 0 0 13 152 (Full Balance of Power)
5%: | 0 0 0 139 (BoP+ Draenei Inspiring Presence)
7%: | 0 0 0 114 (BoP+ Totem of Wrath)
8%: | 0 0 0 101 (BoP+ToW+Inspiring Presence)
In other words, if a Druid takes balance of power (+4%) Any +hit will only improve long term DPS on a mob lvl 72 or over. And a druid with Balance of Power in a party with a Shammy (using +3% wrath totem) OR a Draenei would only benefit if the Target Mob were 73 or higher.
Meaning, a Druid in a decently geared group of any form would not benefit from excessive +hit except against a ??Boss or the odd 73+ mobs.
On the other hand, +crit will always result in an increase in long term DPS no mater the mob, unless Mobs have been confirmed to have a resilience stat? Now your resulting Crit Rate is always modified by your Hit rate. A 20% crit rate at +hit Cap of 99% is 20 * .99 = 19.8%. 25 * .99 = 24.75%. And if the druid did not have Balance of power and no +hit... 20 * .96 = 19.2%. 25 * .96 = 24%. And lets say against a lvl 73 mob and no +hit... 20 *.83 = 16.6%. 25 * .83 = 20.75%. Etc. etc.
So the +crit and resulting % do not = an exact resulting +DPS of equal value, but a comparison of +hit and +crit is the resulting change of DPS.
... but? Math time: 100 Spells fired at average of 100 Damage, Damage will sum up to (ignoring Gear/talents for now);
Hit% * Average Damage * (1 + (crit% * .50)) = Average Damage per Spell
A druid who has Vengeance: 100% crit bonus damage instead of the base 50% bonus damage;
Hit% * Average Damage * (1 + (crit% * 1.0)) = Average Damage per Spell
At this point, a druid benefits almost as much from +hit as from +crit to their DPS. But if a druid starts adding in their Talents, do not forget Natures Grace, which allows you to cast more spells per second, thus increasing your DPS even further. And of course the many spells that increase your crit% based on the particular spell.
Modifying the equation (crudely) for a druid with Vengence and Nature's Grace:
Hit% * Average Damage * (1.00 + crit%) + (crit% * Hit% * Average Damage * (1.00 + crit%) *.5/Cast time) = Average Damage Per Spell
Sooo... being as you might be a bit confused as to why the Crit% got added into the equation a number of times due to Natures grace... you must remember. When chain-casting a spell, if the crit of the first spell allows the second spell to be cast with .5 seconds less... its as if .5 seconds worth of the spell were cast in the first spell, which increases the effective damage of the first spell. (only on the presumption that a second damaging spell is cast).
I may not have presented the equation in the correct format, but based on what I remember about statistics, the last formula for average damage per spell could be nested with infinitely smaller contributions due to Nature's Grasp. Because of this, I believe that we can assume, that with Nature's Grasp all increases to Crit% are worth 1/2*cast time % more DPS than without.
~For those of you who TL;DR'd...
Any druid who is appropriately organized their talents for PvE would benefit more from +crit than from +hit. If the Druid is finding their spells hitting less frequently or their DPS is suffering, then that druid needs to speak with the raid leader to see if an Totem of Wrath Weilding Shammy could be put in his party... or at least some other spellcasters so that they at least benefit from free Crit%. And if you are Alliance, a spellcasting Draenei of any kind will help.
Then again, if you find that none of this helps your druid hit your enemies... get off this forum and get to 70 already... The biggest increase to DPS is level.
[Sorry for the rant, I realized far too late what it had truly become.]
[Edit] One last note, I think that a ridiculously high Crit rate is a bad thing... because you'll only be able to cast 5 spells before you rip agro right off the tank. and your have to voluntarily hold back your dps, lest you get smeared and wipe the raid, or worse... /gkick. So, again don't go for straight crit rate. [/Edit]
Edited, Apr 24th 2008 3:20am by JaxomZero
Scholar
23 posts
Importance of stats for Moonkins is as follows:
Hit Cap (obviously) - 152 needed with talents
- if you have trouble getting this get the Sha'tar head enchant, the +15 spell hit gloves enchant, and the Scryers Bloodgem trinket (only need revered with Scryers; if not scryers then you have some different gemming to do which is explained next)
- Gems you can socket for this will be between 2 primary ones: the +8 spell hit yellow gems, or the +4 spell hit/+5 spell dmg gems (orange - veiled noble topaz)
- Like the above poster said though, if you're in a consistent raid group with an Ele Shammy you can gear for hit to only how much you need to reach 12% with totem of wrath out.
2nd most important stat is +spell dmg
- +40 spell dmg weapon enchant
- +15 spell dmg bracer enchant
- Gems: Runed Living Ruby or whatever it's called - +9 spell dmg
- This should be prioritized over crit because as mentioned too much crit and you'll be pulling aggro due to lack of moonkin threat wipes. I love seeing 3 starfires crit for 5k in a row but the feeling wears off after I swiftly die.
Spell Crit is next - I'm about to start ZA/T5 content and I only have 21% unbuffed in Moonkin form. It serves me well enough. Just don't trade other stats for this. Moonkin aren't like Fire mages where most of our dps comes from crits.
After this Intellect. I tend to favor staves with higher raw stats like int over MH/OH combos that offer more raw spell dmg because the OOMKIN stigma is not something you want. Also with Dreamstate and Intensity the more Int you have the better mana regen you will have. Currently in my gear I now no longer run out of mana ever during T4 encounters with buffs and such. I think buffed I have 150mp5 while casting which is great for my mana longevity.
Here is my armory btw.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cho%27gall&n=Ctulu
In Kara I pump out normally 2nd dps only to mages and to affliction locks on Prince similarly geared as me right now. Don't have solid knowledge on where I stand in Gruuls/Mag though since I pug them with T5 and up people most of the time (guild is new thus we don't have the members yet for it). All my gear is T4/Badge gear and easy to obtain for the most part. Glad Staff is easy to farm out as well.
Edited, Apr 24th 2008 7:05am by Tulzscha
Edited, Apr 24th 2008 7:08am by Tulzscha
Edited, Apr 24th 2008 7:51am by Tulzscha
Hit Cap (obviously) - 152 needed with talents
- if you have trouble getting this get the Sha'tar head enchant, the +15 spell hit gloves enchant, and the Scryers Bloodgem trinket (only need revered with Scryers; if not scryers then you have some different gemming to do which is explained next)
- Gems you can socket for this will be between 2 primary ones: the +8 spell hit yellow gems, or the +4 spell hit/+5 spell dmg gems (orange - veiled noble topaz)
- Like the above poster said though, if you're in a consistent raid group with an Ele Shammy you can gear for hit to only how much you need to reach 12% with totem of wrath out.
2nd most important stat is +spell dmg
- +40 spell dmg weapon enchant
- +15 spell dmg bracer enchant
- Gems: Runed Living Ruby or whatever it's called - +9 spell dmg
- This should be prioritized over crit because as mentioned too much crit and you'll be pulling aggro due to lack of moonkin threat wipes. I love seeing 3 starfires crit for 5k in a row but the feeling wears off after I swiftly die.
Spell Crit is next - I'm about to start ZA/T5 content and I only have 21% unbuffed in Moonkin form. It serves me well enough. Just don't trade other stats for this. Moonkin aren't like Fire mages where most of our dps comes from crits.
After this Intellect. I tend to favor staves with higher raw stats like int over MH/OH combos that offer more raw spell dmg because the OOMKIN stigma is not something you want. Also with Dreamstate and Intensity the more Int you have the better mana regen you will have. Currently in my gear I now no longer run out of mana ever during T4 encounters with buffs and such. I think buffed I have 150mp5 while casting which is great for my mana longevity.
Here is my armory btw.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cho%27gall&n=Ctulu
In Kara I pump out normally 2nd dps only to mages and to affliction locks on Prince similarly geared as me right now. Don't have solid knowledge on where I stand in Gruuls/Mag though since I pug them with T5 and up people most of the time (guild is new thus we don't have the members yet for it). All my gear is T4/Badge gear and easy to obtain for the most part. Glad Staff is easy to farm out as well.
Edited, Apr 24th 2008 7:05am by Tulzscha
Edited, Apr 24th 2008 7:08am by Tulzscha
Edited, Apr 24th 2008 7:51am by Tulzscha
A spell that doesn't hit can't possibly crit and won't ever proc Nature's Grace or benefit from Vengeance.
Vengeance and Nature's Grace only come into play AFTER reaching the hit cap for whatever content you're playing, when it comes to deciding between spell crit and spell damage.
You have to take other things into consideration as well, one of them being your casting time. Missing with a Moonfire won't hurt you much, because you "only" wasted a global CD + your network latency. Different story with Starfire though as you'll find yourself having wasted 3 seconds cast time, 1,5 seconds GCD, plus your latency doing absolutely nothing if your spell doesn't hit. This can be rather problematic when you're dealing with enrage timers.
Balance of Power makes it ridiculously easy to reach the hit cap, even more so if you don't mind wearing cloth. There is really no excuse.
Edit:
Here is a list that's not even complete: http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_hit_gear
Edited, Apr 24th 2008 2:10pm by Kanngarnix
Vengeance and Nature's Grace only come into play AFTER reaching the hit cap for whatever content you're playing, when it comes to deciding between spell crit and spell damage.
You have to take other things into consideration as well, one of them being your casting time. Missing with a Moonfire won't hurt you much, because you "only" wasted a global CD + your network latency. Different story with Starfire though as you'll find yourself having wasted 3 seconds cast time, 1,5 seconds GCD, plus your latency doing absolutely nothing if your spell doesn't hit. This can be rather problematic when you're dealing with enrage timers.
Balance of Power makes it ridiculously easy to reach the hit cap, even more so if you don't mind wearing cloth. There is really no excuse.
Edit:
Here is a list that's not even complete: http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_hit_gear
Edited, Apr 24th 2008 2:10pm by Kanngarnix
I'm sorry Kanngarnix, but everytime I hear 'If it doesn't hit, it won't crit', I die inside a little.
There are plenty of other reasons why a spell can't crit. Say.. OoM due to lack of mana efficiency, or the particular boss's immunities or play style.
And for your information a wiffed Starfire is not Spell cast time + gcd + latency. When a spell has a longer cast time than the GCD, the time lost due to it is eaten up by the time taken to cast the spell.
However, if the boss situation has an Enrage timer, you shouldn't be using starfire very often in the first place.
Starfire is the druid D.D. spell that is mana efficient, or has high Damage Per Mana. Meaning it is a good spell to cast for endurance fights, not for a X Minute race against... say Void Reaver or some other enrage timer. But unfortunately it's long cast time might make you vulnerable to lost DPS due to having to cancel the spell to move in a boss fight.
Wrath is the druid D.D. spell that has high Damage Per Second. It is less mana efficient, so it is better for fast fights or fights where you have extensive mana regen. Because of it's short cast time, Wrath benefits to DPS least from Nature's Grace as it only reduces time lost due to latency. I'm pretty sure N'sG doesn't reduce GCD, so you still can't cast faster than 1.5 seconds. But even so, it often eats mana faster due to crits decreasing cast time.
Moonfire can be very efficient in terms of Damage Per Mana if you let it tick, and has good DPS. The Crit of a Moonfire with Nature's Grace makes casting Starfire even more efficient, making it a good follow up.
Those are the three crittable Spells of the Moonkin. Spell +hit benefits an Endurance fight because every mana is more likely to count for damage. Spell +crit benefits a burn fight because of it's high DPS and increased spell speed, not to mention the innate mana efficiency of 2xDPM.
For a boss fight, also, do not forget Insect Swarm. Though it can't crit (and thus benefits from +hit and +dmg only), it is one of the better DoTs a druid can cast. Highly Mana Efficient, it also slightly mitigates damage by reducing the boss's chance to hit by 2%.
Currently my guild is gearing up for CoT:HM, possibly SSC & BT (but due to the dropped attunment requirements, we might skip). If you want to look at my crit-chicken, http://www.wowarmory.com/...Dagdamor. But I find that sacrificing +crit that you might already have for +hit is inefficient. I do agree that +hit is an important stat, but in a 25man raid where the likely-hood of being properly grouped is high, any additional +X% to hit you recieve causes 12.6 points of +hit to be waisted.
Frankly, Stats are always important, but stats are also situational. Remember, your not always fighting alone, and for Moonkins, anything that directly increases your Int, Damage or Crit is helpful, because there is not cap to it, and no matter the level of the target it is beneficial. +hit and +hit% buffs are only beneficial on bosses.
But you have to remember, you didn't go to Tempest Keep... Black Temple... Hyjal Mountain... just to clear trash.
P.S. Look I'm sorry, but I don't see the grand end-all to +hit outside of pug raids and hardcore guilds. And at that point T4/5 armor gives druids enough +hit anyways that gems/enchants can be used for tweaking.
There are plenty of other reasons why a spell can't crit. Say.. OoM due to lack of mana efficiency, or the particular boss's immunities or play style.
And for your information a wiffed Starfire is not Spell cast time + gcd + latency. When a spell has a longer cast time than the GCD, the time lost due to it is eaten up by the time taken to cast the spell.
However, if the boss situation has an Enrage timer, you shouldn't be using starfire very often in the first place.
Starfire is the druid D.D. spell that is mana efficient, or has high Damage Per Mana. Meaning it is a good spell to cast for endurance fights, not for a X Minute race against... say Void Reaver or some other enrage timer. But unfortunately it's long cast time might make you vulnerable to lost DPS due to having to cancel the spell to move in a boss fight.
Wrath is the druid D.D. spell that has high Damage Per Second. It is less mana efficient, so it is better for fast fights or fights where you have extensive mana regen. Because of it's short cast time, Wrath benefits to DPS least from Nature's Grace as it only reduces time lost due to latency. I'm pretty sure N'sG doesn't reduce GCD, so you still can't cast faster than 1.5 seconds. But even so, it often eats mana faster due to crits decreasing cast time.
Moonfire can be very efficient in terms of Damage Per Mana if you let it tick, and has good DPS. The Crit of a Moonfire with Nature's Grace makes casting Starfire even more efficient, making it a good follow up.
Those are the three crittable Spells of the Moonkin. Spell +hit benefits an Endurance fight because every mana is more likely to count for damage. Spell +crit benefits a burn fight because of it's high DPS and increased spell speed, not to mention the innate mana efficiency of 2xDPM.
For a boss fight, also, do not forget Insect Swarm. Though it can't crit (and thus benefits from +hit and +dmg only), it is one of the better DoTs a druid can cast. Highly Mana Efficient, it also slightly mitigates damage by reducing the boss's chance to hit by 2%.
Currently my guild is gearing up for CoT:HM, possibly SSC & BT (but due to the dropped attunment requirements, we might skip). If you want to look at my crit-chicken, http://www.wowarmory.com/...Dagdamor. But I find that sacrificing +crit that you might already have for +hit is inefficient. I do agree that +hit is an important stat, but in a 25man raid where the likely-hood of being properly grouped is high, any additional +X% to hit you recieve causes 12.6 points of +hit to be waisted.
Frankly, Stats are always important, but stats are also situational. Remember, your not always fighting alone, and for Moonkins, anything that directly increases your Int, Damage or Crit is helpful, because there is not cap to it, and no matter the level of the target it is beneficial. +hit and +hit% buffs are only beneficial on bosses.
But you have to remember, you didn't go to Tempest Keep... Black Temple... Hyjal Mountain... just to clear trash.
P.S. Look I'm sorry, but I don't see the grand end-all to +hit outside of pug raids and hardcore guilds. And at that point T4/5 armor gives druids enough +hit anyways that gems/enchants can be used for tweaking.
Quote:
I'm sorry Kanngarnix, but everytime I hear 'If it doesn't hit, it won't crit', I die inside a little.
There are plenty of other reasons why a spell can't crit. Say.. OoM due to lack of mana efficiency, or the particular boss's immunities or play style.
There are plenty of other reasons why a spell can't crit. Say.. OoM due to lack of mana efficiency, or the particular boss's immunities or play style.
I'm sorry about your most recent death then, but you might just have to get over it then.. and die a little more. You know, you could pull out a dozen other reasons as to why a spell doesn't crit, like that the player's dog got run over by the neighbor's car, had to be taken to the vet, and that the usual 5 pm traffic jam kept the player from returning back to his computer until after the raid. These things have absolutely nothing to do with the attack rolls.
Quote:
Spell +hit benefits an Endurance fight because every mana is more likely to count for damage. Spell +crit benefits a burn fight because of it's high DPS and increased spell speed, not to mention the innate mana efficiency of 2xDPM
This is where you're so terribly wrong! (Prepare to die)
You're doing ZERO dps or dpm or whatever else if your spell doesn't pass the hit roll. Spell hit benefits absolutely everything because it's a requirement for a spell to crit. First there is the hit roll, then comes the crit roll. This means that there is an effective chance to crit, which increases with your chance to hit.
Take a crit rate of 25%:
Without Balance of Power (83% hit), your effective crit chance is 20.75%
With Balance of Power (87% hit), your effective crit chance is 21.75%
Hit-capped at 99%, your effective crit chance is 24.75%
You're getting a 100% damage bonus for critical strikes, making your effective crit chance a rather important part of your possible dps output. Stacking spell hit up to the cap means you're increasing your effective crit chance as well.
You can do the same thing with bonus damage.
Take a Wrath that would hit with 1000 (since it's such a nice number)
With 87% hit, you're obviously having effective damage of 870.
With 99% hit, you're looking at 990 effective damage.
Decreasing your chance to miss is the most effective way to increase your overall DPS.
It takes ~12.6 spell hit rating for a 1% increase, it takes ~22 spell crit rating for the same 1% increase. Even if hit % and crit % increased DPS equally (they don't), it takes twice as much crit rating to get there.
Kann.
No matter what you do, you will always have a 1% chance to miss at best.
because of that, you can never get perfect efficiency.
The Mathematical/Economic rule of diminishing returns states that you should always spend your limited resources (Gear, Talents, mana, etc.) on something that will provide the greatest marginal return.
A Wrath dealing 1000 damage at a talented 87% hit and 25% crit deals not 870, but:
.87 * (1000) * 1.25 = 1087.5 damage per spell
Because Wrath (untalented) is a 2 second cast, the DPS is 543.75 DPS.
Wrath talented to 1.5 second cast, the DPS is now 1087.5/1.5 = 725 DPS.
A druid with the t4 chestpeice gets 19 or 27+hit translating to about 1.9% or 2.5% increased hit...
.895 * (1000) * 1.25 = 1118.75 Damage per spell or 745.8 DPS
the same druid with a Shaman in the party with ToW...
.925 * (1000) * 1.28 = 1184 or 789.3 DPS
same druid, but alliance with draenei shammy with ToW...
.935 * (1000) * 1.28 = 1196.8 or 797.8 DPS
If instead of that additional 1% increase in hit, lets say you just used a gem/enchant to increase your crit 1%...
.925 * (1000) * 1.29 = 1193.25 or 795.5 DPS
So, purely on that, the difference in DPS ends up being +2.3 damage for +1% hit over +1% crit. But if a druid had this problem, he's an idiot, because he never got Nature's Grace.
Now remember:
Hit% * Average Damage * 1+Crit% + .5 seconds worth of the next spell cast if the first spell is a crit. lets ignore the GCD for just a moment for math purposes and say Wrath followed as a 1 second cast.
.925 * (1000) * 1.28 = 1184 + ( .28 * .5/1.5 * .925 * (1000) * 1.28) = 1184 + 110.5 = 1294.5 damage over 1 spell plus the effective worth of the next spell that is 'cast' durring the first , DPS = 863 DPS
Increase 1% hit
1196.8 + .28 * .5/1.5 * .935 * 1000 * 1.28 = 1308.5 or 872.3 DPS
a DPS increase of 9.3
Increasing 1% crit instead
1193.25 + .29 * .5/1.5 * .925 * 1000 * 1.28 = 1308.5 or 872.3 DPS
a DPS increase of 9.3
... hey wait. So what the math shows is that a properly spec'd druid... gains as much from +crit as from +hit eh?
So unless your Caster DPSing as an off-spec druid. It doesn't Matter which increases...
Oh wait...
It's only a 92.5% or 93.5% chance when fighting a boss.
Lets see... when fighting something thats say lvl 72...
Well the chart states that you only need +13 to hit to reach cap if you have +4% hit from BoP...
So lets go back to the math... same druid...
.99 * 1000 * 1.28 + .28 * .5/1.5 * .99 * 1000 * 1.28 = ... 1267.2 + 118.2
Or 1385.2 damage and 923.6 DPS
Lets add 1% hit rating from Draenei/+hit/ToW etc...
.99 * 1000 * 1.28 + .28 * .5/1.5 * .99 * 1000 * 1.28 = ... 1267.2 + 118.2
Or 1385.2 damage or 923.6 DPS
notice the same math? Well instead of increasing the +hit, lets increase +crit by 1%.
.99 * 1000 * 1.29 + .29 * .5/1.5 * .99 * 1000 * 1.29 = ... 1277.1 + 123.4
Or 1400.5 damage or 933.7 DPS
My point is...
+hit for a properly spec'd druid is less effective over all than +crit. Last time I ran a raid, after dropping the first boss, my total damage in the instance was 75% dealt to trash, 25% dealt to boss... Whom we 1 shotted with only 2-3 deaths. Meaning that my +hit was only effective for 25% of my damage dealt, where my +crit was effective to 100% of my damage.
You had better be the best damn geared caster in your guild if you have to worry about +hit, because I assure you, if you have a base hit chance below 90% on a boss, "You [and your raid] Are Not Prepared".
Oh and P.S. if you have a set of +hit gear for Bosses and other gear for clearing trash, congratulations. For someone trying to get that gear, they need to determine which is best before they get to that step.
and next time I'll drag out Damage Per Mana, and you'll soon find out that the math still favors crit.
[Edit] Astarin, I understand your point, but I've not seen the item level values that each point of +hit or +crit is at. I'm willing to bet that 1 point of + hit is ~ = to 2 points of + crit on items. [/Edit]
Edited, Apr 24th 2008 2:46pm by JaxomZero
No matter what you do, you will always have a 1% chance to miss at best.
because of that, you can never get perfect efficiency.
The Mathematical/Economic rule of diminishing returns states that you should always spend your limited resources (Gear, Talents, mana, etc.) on something that will provide the greatest marginal return.
A Wrath dealing 1000 damage at a talented 87% hit and 25% crit deals not 870, but:
.87 * (1000) * 1.25 = 1087.5 damage per spell
Because Wrath (untalented) is a 2 second cast, the DPS is 543.75 DPS.
Wrath talented to 1.5 second cast, the DPS is now 1087.5/1.5 = 725 DPS.
A druid with the t4 chestpeice gets 19 or 27+hit translating to about 1.9% or 2.5% increased hit...
.895 * (1000) * 1.25 = 1118.75 Damage per spell or 745.8 DPS
the same druid with a Shaman in the party with ToW...
.925 * (1000) * 1.28 = 1184 or 789.3 DPS
same druid, but alliance with draenei shammy with ToW...
.935 * (1000) * 1.28 = 1196.8 or 797.8 DPS
If instead of that additional 1% increase in hit, lets say you just used a gem/enchant to increase your crit 1%...
.925 * (1000) * 1.29 = 1193.25 or 795.5 DPS
So, purely on that, the difference in DPS ends up being +2.3 damage for +1% hit over +1% crit. But if a druid had this problem, he's an idiot, because he never got Nature's Grace.
Now remember:
Hit% * Average Damage * 1+Crit% + .5 seconds worth of the next spell cast if the first spell is a crit. lets ignore the GCD for just a moment for math purposes and say Wrath followed as a 1 second cast.
.925 * (1000) * 1.28 = 1184 + ( .28 * .5/1.5 * .925 * (1000) * 1.28) = 1184 + 110.5 = 1294.5 damage over 1 spell plus the effective worth of the next spell that is 'cast' durring the first , DPS = 863 DPS
Increase 1% hit
1196.8 + .28 * .5/1.5 * .935 * 1000 * 1.28 = 1308.5 or 872.3 DPS
a DPS increase of 9.3
Increasing 1% crit instead
1193.25 + .29 * .5/1.5 * .925 * 1000 * 1.28 = 1308.5 or 872.3 DPS
a DPS increase of 9.3
... hey wait. So what the math shows is that a properly spec'd druid... gains as much from +crit as from +hit eh?
So unless your Caster DPSing as an off-spec druid. It doesn't Matter which increases...
Oh wait...
It's only a 92.5% or 93.5% chance when fighting a boss.
Lets see... when fighting something thats say lvl 72...
Well the chart states that you only need +13 to hit to reach cap if you have +4% hit from BoP...
So lets go back to the math... same druid...
.99 * 1000 * 1.28 + .28 * .5/1.5 * .99 * 1000 * 1.28 = ... 1267.2 + 118.2
Or 1385.2 damage and 923.6 DPS
Lets add 1% hit rating from Draenei/+hit/ToW etc...
.99 * 1000 * 1.28 + .28 * .5/1.5 * .99 * 1000 * 1.28 = ... 1267.2 + 118.2
Or 1385.2 damage or 923.6 DPS
notice the same math? Well instead of increasing the +hit, lets increase +crit by 1%.
.99 * 1000 * 1.29 + .29 * .5/1.5 * .99 * 1000 * 1.29 = ... 1277.1 + 123.4
Or 1400.5 damage or 933.7 DPS
My point is...
+hit for a properly spec'd druid is less effective over all than +crit. Last time I ran a raid, after dropping the first boss, my total damage in the instance was 75% dealt to trash, 25% dealt to boss... Whom we 1 shotted with only 2-3 deaths. Meaning that my +hit was only effective for 25% of my damage dealt, where my +crit was effective to 100% of my damage.
You had better be the best damn geared caster in your guild if you have to worry about +hit, because I assure you, if you have a base hit chance below 90% on a boss, "You [and your raid] Are Not Prepared".
Oh and P.S. if you have a set of +hit gear for Bosses and other gear for clearing trash, congratulations. For someone trying to get that gear, they need to determine which is best before they get to that step.
and next time I'll drag out Damage Per Mana, and you'll soon find out that the math still favors crit.
[Edit] Astarin, I understand your point, but I've not seen the item level values that each point of +hit or +crit is at. I'm willing to bet that 1 point of + hit is ~ = to 2 points of + crit on items. [/Edit]
Edited, Apr 24th 2008 2:46pm by JaxomZero
Neglecting the GCD artificially inflates the damage of Wrath on a NG proc. Also, you're neglecting the fact that you get less crit % than what's actually listed, due to spells needing to hit before they can crit. Your calculations are based on WoW melee hit-tables. Also, no one cares if you can maximize DPS on trash mobs. There's no enrage timer, and your healers will probably end the pull at over 80% mana.
At 4% spell hit from talents only, 20% crit in Moonkin form, 600 +spell damage, level 73 mob
Chance to hit: 87%
of the 87% hits, 20% will crit, or 17.4% of total spell casts
Wrath base damage: 381-429 (405 average)
Contribution from +damage: 600 x .57 = 342
Total: 405+342 = 747, x1.1 (5/5 Moonfury) = ~822
.13 x 0 + .174 x 822 x 2 + .696 x 822 =
0 + 286.06 + 572.11 = 858.17
Starfire base damage: 540-636 (588 average)
Contribution from +damage: 600 x 1 = 600
Total: (588 + 600) x 1.1 = 1307
.13 x 0 + .174 x 1307 x 2 + .696 x 1307 =
0 + 454.84 + 909.67 = 1364.51
Spell crits proc Nature's Grace, effectively adding 1/6 (~16.6%) the DPS of a Starfire to every Wrath or Starfire crit. (Assuming 1364.51 for base calculation to avoid Calculus)
Wrath damage including NG:
[.13 x 0] + [.174 x (822 x 2 + 1364.51 / 6)] + [.696 x 822] =
0 + 325.63 + 572.11 = 897.74
Damage per second casting: 897.74 / 1.5 = 598.49
Damage per mana: 897.74 / 255 = 3.52
Now we'll increase hit rate by 1%
Chance to hit: 88%
of the 88% hits, 20% will crit, or 17.6% of total spell casts
Wrath:
[.12 x 0] + [.176 x 822 x 2] + [.704 x 822] =
0 + 289.34 + 578.69 = 868.03
Starfire:
[.12 x 0] + [.176 x 1307 x 2] + [.704 x 1307] =
0 + 460.06 + 920.13 = 1380.19
Wrath including NG:
[.12 x 0] + [.176 x (822 x 2 + 1380.19 / 6)] + [.704 x 822] =
0 + 329.83 + 578.69 = 908.52
DPSC: 908.52 / 1.5 = 605.68, increased by 7.19
DPM: 908.52 / 255 = 3.56, increased by .04
This time we'll increase crit rate by 1% instead of hit rate
Chance to hit: 87%
of the 87% hits, 21% will crit, or 18.2% of total hits
Wrath:
[.13 x 0] + [.182 x 822 x 2] + [.688 x 822] =
0 + 299.21 + 565.54 = 864.75
Starfire:
[.13 x 0] + [.182 x 1307 x 2] + [.688 x 1307] =
0 + 475.75 + 899.22 = 1374.97
Wrath including NG:
[.13 x 0] + [.182 x (822 x 2 + 1374.97 / 6)] + [.688 x 822] =
0 + 340.92 + 565.54 = 906.46
DPSC: 906.46 / 1.5 = 604.31, increased by 5.82
DPM: 906.46 / 255 = 3.55, increased by .03
Recap for people that skimmed over the math:
Increasing hit rating by 1% increased DPSC of Wrath by 7.19, or 1.2%. Increasing crit rating by 1% only increased the DPSC of Wrath by 5.82, or .97%.
This ignores the fact that 3 Great Dawnstones will give you 1.9% spell hit and 3 Gleaming Dawnstones will only give 1.09% spell crit.
Edit: gem links
Edited, Apr 24th 2008 4:30pm by AstarintheDruid
At 4% spell hit from talents only, 20% crit in Moonkin form, 600 +spell damage, level 73 mob
Chance to hit: 87%
of the 87% hits, 20% will crit, or 17.4% of total spell casts
Wrath base damage: 381-429 (405 average)
Contribution from +damage: 600 x .57 = 342
Total: 405+342 = 747, x1.1 (5/5 Moonfury) = ~822
.13 x 0 + .174 x 822 x 2 + .696 x 822 =
0 + 286.06 + 572.11 = 858.17
Starfire base damage: 540-636 (588 average)
Contribution from +damage: 600 x 1 = 600
Total: (588 + 600) x 1.1 = 1307
.13 x 0 + .174 x 1307 x 2 + .696 x 1307 =
0 + 454.84 + 909.67 = 1364.51
Spell crits proc Nature's Grace, effectively adding 1/6 (~16.6%) the DPS of a Starfire to every Wrath or Starfire crit. (Assuming 1364.51 for base calculation to avoid Calculus)
Wrath damage including NG:
[.13 x 0] + [.174 x (822 x 2 + 1364.51 / 6)] + [.696 x 822] =
0 + 325.63 + 572.11 = 897.74
Damage per second casting: 897.74 / 1.5 = 598.49
Damage per mana: 897.74 / 255 = 3.52
Now we'll increase hit rate by 1%
Chance to hit: 88%
of the 88% hits, 20% will crit, or 17.6% of total spell casts
Wrath:
[.12 x 0] + [.176 x 822 x 2] + [.704 x 822] =
0 + 289.34 + 578.69 = 868.03
Starfire:
[.12 x 0] + [.176 x 1307 x 2] + [.704 x 1307] =
0 + 460.06 + 920.13 = 1380.19
Wrath including NG:
[.12 x 0] + [.176 x (822 x 2 + 1380.19 / 6)] + [.704 x 822] =
0 + 329.83 + 578.69 = 908.52
DPSC: 908.52 / 1.5 = 605.68, increased by 7.19
DPM: 908.52 / 255 = 3.56, increased by .04
This time we'll increase crit rate by 1% instead of hit rate
Chance to hit: 87%
of the 87% hits, 21% will crit, or 18.2% of total hits
Wrath:
[.13 x 0] + [.182 x 822 x 2] + [.688 x 822] =
0 + 299.21 + 565.54 = 864.75
Starfire:
[.13 x 0] + [.182 x 1307 x 2] + [.688 x 1307] =
0 + 475.75 + 899.22 = 1374.97
Wrath including NG:
[.13 x 0] + [.182 x (822 x 2 + 1374.97 / 6)] + [.688 x 822] =
0 + 340.92 + 565.54 = 906.46
DPSC: 906.46 / 1.5 = 604.31, increased by 5.82
DPM: 906.46 / 255 = 3.55, increased by .03
Recap for people that skimmed over the math:
Increasing hit rating by 1% increased DPSC of Wrath by 7.19, or 1.2%. Increasing crit rating by 1% only increased the DPSC of Wrath by 5.82, or .97%.
This ignores the fact that 3 Great Dawnstones will give you 1.9% spell hit and 3 Gleaming Dawnstones will only give 1.09% spell crit.
Edit: gem links
Edited, Apr 24th 2008 4:30pm by AstarintheDruid
In response to the first paragraph:
I neglected the GCD because someone wanted to add it to spell cast and latency, so I didn't want to ugly up the equations I would have to plan out.
I do not believe my Crit % is wrong because of multiplication theory, and infact if anything, I believe my Crit % is too low... but I wasn't aiming for exact figures, only a representation.
I was using Spell Hit tables for PvE. If I was using Melee hit tables, then I wonder where the glancing blows and dodges are?? hmm?
-
I see that at least you do have research down on this. Because of the differences in our method and results, I'm going to go ahead and say I'm done here, because we both believe only our own math
The only reason I've been saying that I prefer +crit over +hit, is because situations change, and its possible that additional +hit becomes wasted figures.
I don't think you've convinced me, though you have shown me methodology of another sort. So, I'll save everyone a hell of a lot of time and just not bother comparing notes with people here.
I neglected the GCD because someone wanted to add it to spell cast and latency, so I didn't want to ugly up the equations I would have to plan out.
I do not believe my Crit % is wrong because of multiplication theory, and infact if anything, I believe my Crit % is too low... but I wasn't aiming for exact figures, only a representation.
I was using Spell Hit tables for PvE. If I was using Melee hit tables, then I wonder where the glancing blows and dodges are?? hmm?
-
I see that at least you do have research down on this. Because of the differences in our method and results, I'm going to go ahead and say I'm done here, because we both believe only our own math
The only reason I've been saying that I prefer +crit over +hit, is because situations change, and its possible that additional +hit becomes wasted figures.
I don't think you've convinced me, though you have shown me methodology of another sort. So, I'll save everyone a hell of a lot of time and just not bother comparing notes with people here.
Scholar
23 posts
No offense Jaxom, I armoried you and can now see why you're still arguing this. You clearly don't have much raid experience as a moonkin. As to the OP, if you aren't already convinced reach your hit cap before anything else, 1% more hit is 1% more dps. If your starfire gets resisted because your hit is too low, not only is your dps hurting, but your mana pool will be as well. It's not difficult to reach it with proper gemming/enchanting. Is it necessary to go into Kara? No. But when you want to start going into Gruul's/Mag pugs you'll want to be able to say you're hit capped. Plus, if you're not hit capped by SSC/TK you simply don't deserve the raid spot.
Edited, Apr 25th 2008 12:52am by Tulzscha
Edited, Apr 25th 2008 12:52am by Tulzscha
Double post.
Edited, Apr 25th 2008 6:08pm by Raglu
Edited, Apr 25th 2008 6:08pm by Raglu
Spell hit and spell crit cost the same amount of itemization points in an item's budget.
12.6 Spell Hit Rating is 1% less miss chance.
22.1 Spell Crit Rating is 1% more crit chance.
You get more out of each single point of spell hit than you do of spell crit, in terms of itemization alone.
Your argue would hold truer, Jaxom, if there was significantly less Spell Crit Rating per 1% spell crit chance.
12.6 Spell Hit Rating is 1% less miss chance.
22.1 Spell Crit Rating is 1% more crit chance.
You get more out of each single point of spell hit than you do of spell crit, in terms of itemization alone.
Your argue would hold truer, Jaxom, if there was significantly less Spell Crit Rating per 1% spell crit chance.
Quote:
I don't think you've convinced me, though you have shown me methodology of another sort. So, I'll save everyone a hell of a lot of time and just not bother comparing notes with people here.
Translation: You found all the flaws in my model and fixing them disproves my point.
Just a FYI for any Boomkins reading this.
Edit: I'll compare models and math with you all day long, just give me values for spell hit, spell crit, spell damage, and what, if any, buffs/debuffs apply. I might even show that gemming for +damage is better than +crit if anyone is interested in the math.
Edited, Apr 25th 2008 7:20pm by AstarintheDruid
For those who are interested, here's a couple formulas I threw together a while ago to compare Starfire to Wrath for raw DPS. Had to redo it for 2.4, and I'm assuming Nature' Grace lowers to GCD on Wrath as well. Assuming zero latency (reasonable, with spell queue is should be ~5ms). I included pretty much everything, so that you can easily adjust if you're missing talents or support classes. (As a historical note, with +1000dmg and 25% hit fully buffed, Starfire pulled ahead of Wrath with a mere +170-ish haste pre-2.4, since Wrath didn't get anything from NG).
The partial resist factor is 6% on all +3lvl mobs (raid bosses). If you see any mistakes I made, please point them out.
Overall, hit > dmg > crit, despite JaxomZero's flawed logic. It can't crit if it can't hit, die a little more inside for all I care, because it's true.
Haste pulls ahead or damage at high +dmg levels, I've heard point-for-point it pulls ahead at about +1390 buffed damage, though that seems a little high to me.
Once you've got good gear, standard rotation is MF + SF until MF runs out, without clipping Moonfire's DoT. IS is good at lower gear levels or if you have mana problems. At lower gear levels with no mana problems, Wrath is better over Starfire, but mana does become a big concern.
Try and get a group that's yourself, a shadow priest, an elemental shammy, and 2 mages/destro locks. Bonus points if you can convince people to trade off wearing Chains of the Twilight Owl (2% crit to group for 30 minutes, 60 minute cooldown, crafted from JC'ing).
EDIT: This forum doesn't have [code] tags, oops.
Edited, Apr 26th 2008 3:26pm by lsfreak
Quote:
Starfire
a = (base_dmg + (plus_dmg * (1 + Wrath_of_Cenarius))) * Moonfury * Misery * (Curse_of_Shadows + Malediction) * Other_Multipliers * Hit_chance * Partial_resist_factor
b = (a * (1 - total_crit_chance)) + ((a * total_crit_chance) * crit_multiplier)
cast_time = ((3.5 - Starlight_Wrath) / (1 + (Spell_Haste_Rating/1576))) * (1 - total_crit_chance) + ((3.5 - Starlight_Wrath - Nature's_Grace) / (1 + (Spell_Haste_Rating/1576))) * (total_crit_chance)
dps = b/cast_time
a = (base_dmg + (plus_dmg * (1 + Wrath_of_Cenarius))) * Moonfury * Misery * (Curse_of_Shadows + Malediction) * Other_Multipliers * Hit_chance * Partial_resist_factor
b = (a * (1 - total_crit_chance)) + ((a * total_crit_chance) * crit_multiplier)
cast_time = ((3.5 - Starlight_Wrath) / (1 + (Spell_Haste_Rating/1576))) * (1 - total_crit_chance) + ((3.5 - Starlight_Wrath - Nature's_Grace) / (1 + (Spell_Haste_Rating/1576))) * (total_crit_chance)
dps = b/cast_time
Quote:
Wrath
a = (base_dmg + (plus_dmg * (2/3.5 + Wrath_of_Cenarius))) * Moonfury * Misery * Other_Multipliers * Hit_chance * Partial_resist_factor
b = (a * (1 - total_crit_chance)) + ((a * total_crit_chance) * crit_multiplier)
cast_time = ((2 - Starlight_Wrath) / (1 + (Spell_Haste_Rating/1576))) * (1 - total_crit_chance) + 1 * (total_crit_chance)
dps = b/cast_time
a = (base_dmg + (plus_dmg * (2/3.5 + Wrath_of_Cenarius))) * Moonfury * Misery * Other_Multipliers * Hit_chance * Partial_resist_factor
b = (a * (1 - total_crit_chance)) + ((a * total_crit_chance) * crit_multiplier)
cast_time = ((2 - Starlight_Wrath) / (1 + (Spell_Haste_Rating/1576))) * (1 - total_crit_chance) + 1 * (total_crit_chance)
dps = b/cast_time
The partial resist factor is 6% on all +3lvl mobs (raid bosses). If you see any mistakes I made, please point them out.
Overall, hit > dmg > crit, despite JaxomZero's flawed logic. It can't crit if it can't hit, die a little more inside for all I care, because it's true.
Haste pulls ahead or damage at high +dmg levels, I've heard point-for-point it pulls ahead at about +1390 buffed damage, though that seems a little high to me.
Once you've got good gear, standard rotation is MF + SF until MF runs out, without clipping Moonfire's DoT. IS is good at lower gear levels or if you have mana problems. At lower gear levels with no mana problems, Wrath is better over Starfire, but mana does become a big concern.
Try and get a group that's yourself, a shadow priest, an elemental shammy, and 2 mages/destro locks. Bonus points if you can convince people to trade off wearing Chains of the Twilight Owl (2% crit to group for 30 minutes, 60 minute cooldown, crafted from JC'ing).
EDIT: This forum doesn't have [code] tags, oops.
Edited, Apr 26th 2008 3:26pm by lsfreak
Kanngarnix wrote:
You're doing ZERO dps or dpm or whatever else if your spell doesn't pass the hit roll. Spell hit benefits absolutely everything because it's a requirement for a spell to crit. First there is the hit roll, then comes the crit roll. This means that there is an effective chance to crit, which increases with your chance to hit.
This is 100% wrong. WoW uses a single roll system. Spells are either a miss, hit, or crit. Increasing your +hit rating does not increase your effective chance to crit.
Edit: NVM, I stand corrected.
Edited, Apr 29th 2008 3:17pm by CamelToad
CamelToad wrote:
This is 100% wrong. WoW uses a single roll system. Spells are either a miss, hit, or crit. Increasing your +hit rating does not increase your effective chance to crit.
Sorry, you're wrong. You are thinking of the physical (melee and ranged) attack table. Spells use a different attack table.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_hit#The_effect_of_Spell_Hit_chance_on_Spell_Critical_Hit_chance
Strictly speaking, we don't know if it's single-roll or two-roll for spells. Non-rogue melee attacks are single rolls; Muta, SS, and possibly all rogue abilities are two-roll (most testing for non-Muta/SS done against Attumen with curse, but that could be a funky mechanic); casters are up in the air, but almost definitely two-roll.
If you want details, what testing was done on EJ against Dr. Boom with him being +3lvl mob (i.e. boss-level) indicated either two-roll with slight crit depression (slightly lower crit rate than expected, kinda like glancing blows), OR a single-roll with pretty heavy crit depression (in the range of 20-25%, iirc). Once my mage or shammy get high enough level, I might spend a week doing some real testing on the subject to try and get a definitive answer.
If you want details, what testing was done on EJ against Dr. Boom with him being +3lvl mob (i.e. boss-level) indicated either two-roll with slight crit depression (slightly lower crit rate than expected, kinda like glancing blows), OR a single-roll with pretty heavy crit depression (in the range of 20-25%, iirc). Once my mage or shammy get high enough level, I might spend a week doing some real testing on the subject to try and get a definitive answer.
lsfreak wrote:
Strictly speaking, we don't know if it's single-roll or two-roll for spells. Non-rogue melee attacks are single rolls; Muta, SS, and possibly all rogue abilities are two-roll (most testing for non-Muta/SS done against Attumen with curse, but that could be a funky mechanic); casters are up in the air, but almost definitely two-roll.
If you want details, what testing was done on EJ against Dr. Boom with him being +3lvl mob (i.e. boss-level) indicated either two-roll with slight crit depression (slightly lower crit rate than expected, kinda like glancing blows), OR a single-roll with pretty heavy crit depression (in the range of 20-25%, iirc). Once my mage or shammy get high enough level, I might spend a week doing some real testing on the subject to try and get a definitive answer.
If you want details, what testing was done on EJ against Dr. Boom with him being +3lvl mob (i.e. boss-level) indicated either two-roll with slight crit depression (slightly lower crit rate than expected, kinda like glancing blows), OR a single-roll with pretty heavy crit depression (in the range of 20-25%, iirc). Once my mage or shammy get high enough level, I might spend a week doing some real testing on the subject to try and get a definitive answer.
It's actually pretty well confirmed that all yellow attacks (spells and Rogue/Warrior/Enhance Shaman/whatever) use a two-roll system and all white autoattacks (melee attacks, Hunter's autoshot, and possibly wands) use a one-roll system.
There's really no doubt about casters, though.
The way I look at it is:-
Gaining 1% hit will gain you roughly 1% damage.
Gaining 1% crit will gain you roughly 1% damage.
Sure there are extra benefits from the procs for crit, but then there are also benefits from spells that don't crit & less agro spikes.
So rougly 1% hit = 1% crit
therefore roughly 12.6 hit rating = 22.1 crit rating
So point for point hit is better than crit (below the cap).
All the other maths and special cases affects the results slightly, but not by too much either way. Seems to me you guys are over complicating it :)
And be nice, you can argue the case either way without getting nasty like they do in the other forums :)
Gaining 1% hit will gain you roughly 1% damage.
Gaining 1% crit will gain you roughly 1% damage.
Sure there are extra benefits from the procs for crit, but then there are also benefits from spells that don't crit & less agro spikes.
So rougly 1% hit = 1% crit
therefore roughly 12.6 hit rating = 22.1 crit rating
So point for point hit is better than crit (below the cap).
All the other maths and special cases affects the results slightly, but not by too much either way. Seems to me you guys are over complicating it :)
And be nice, you can argue the case either way without getting nasty like they do in the other forums :)
RareBeast wrote:
The way I look at it is:-
Gaining 1% hit will gain you roughly 1% damage.
Gaining 1% crit will gain you roughly 1% damage.
Gaining 1% hit will gain you roughly 1% damage.
Gaining 1% crit will gain you roughly 1% damage.
Only if you're... well, bad at math.
Going from 89% chance of the spell landing to 90% is a ~1.12% increase in damage, whereas going from 98% to 99% is a ~1.02% increase in damage. In a similar manner, ignoring other bonuses to crits (like the metagem, or the reduced casting time) going from a 20% critrate to 21% is a ~.83% increase in damage and going from 30% critrate to 31% critrate is a ~.76% increase in damage.
With that said, hit up to the cap is the largest increase in damage you can get... even before factoring in the implications of the two-roll system.
Yeah, that's why I only said roughly :)
Although I must admit that I hadn't taken into account the reduction in effectiveness as your crit increases.
I must admit, if we were talking feral, i'd never go into the whole "roughly" thing, but I just can't get right into the whole details thing for Moonkin :)
Although I must admit that I hadn't taken into account the reduction in effectiveness as your crit increases.
I must admit, if we were talking feral, i'd never go into the whole "roughly" thing, but I just can't get right into the whole details thing for Moonkin :)
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