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Help Me Fight Warriors (2)Follow
I have asked this before ... but I'm still having problems.
In 2s, any team with a warrior beats me and my over-geared Druid healer. Why? Because I just can't stand toe-to-toe with a warrior without burning right through my healer's mana.
Here is my usual tactic -
From stealth ...
Premed
garrote
Hemo
Rupture
Shiv Crip
Back off
(all of this done w/ my front to the warrior to maximize chance of dodge)
At this point, if I'm not bleeding I'll restealth, otherwise I'll just stand off and let the DoTs tick a few times.
From here, I do one of two things-
If I'm stealth, I'll open from full 110 energy with Cheap Shot (yes, I know, Second Wind), pop trinket, hemo hemo, KS, Hemo Hemo - pray that my DPS gets me through his Second Wind before stunlock is gone or else I face a rage'd up warrior.
If I'm not stealth, I'll shadowstep a Ghostly Strike -> Hemo -> Evasion and try to burn him down.
That is the general idea, so far ... for me.
The problem is - I STILL LOSE! My gear isn't awesome but I'm sitting at 300 resil and I think ~3400 armor, 1650 AP and 30% crit. I'm still using S1 maces. (Working on S3 sword ... any day now ... I have the points trying to get the raying).
Jordster, Assassin Reject wrote:
I have asked this before ... but I'm still having problems.
In 2s, any team with a warrior beats me and my over-geared Druid healer. Why? Because I just can't stand toe-to-toe with a warrior without burning right through my healer's mana.
Here is my usual tactic -
From stealth ...
Premed
garrote
Hemo
Rupture
Shiv Crip
Back off
(all of this done w/ my front to the warrior to maximize chance of dodge)
At this point, if I'm not bleeding I'll restealth, otherwise I'll just stand off and let the DoTs tick a few times.
From here, I do one of two things-
If I'm stealth, I'll open from full 110 energy with Cheap Shot (yes, I know, Second Wind), pop trinket, hemo hemo, KS, Hemo Hemo - pray that my DPS gets me through his Second Wind before stunlock is gone or else I face a rage'd up warrior.
If I'm not stealth, I'll shadowstep a Ghostly Strike -> Hemo -> Evasion and try to burn him down.
That is the general idea, so far ... for me.
The problem is - I STILL LOSE! My gear isn't awesome but I'm sitting at 300 resil and I think ~3400 armor, 1650 AP and 30% crit. I'm still using S1 maces. (Working on S3 sword ... any day now ... I have the points trying to get the raying).
Are you playing vs a Warrior with a healer here? I mean, if you're dead zone kiting him with a healer for each of you then you're not going to have much luck bursting him down assuming his healer isn't incredibly retarded. In doubt you're going to outlast him either, as a rogue. Why not rape his healer? Just keep resetting the fight till you get the right string of RNG and positioning to take it down. From observing high end Rog/Dru that's what they always do, anyway.
If he's playing double dps as a warrior then wtf, it's a free win.
The problem is - if you saw a Rogue in S1 shoulders and a Druid in S3 shoulders, who would you get on?
Smart warriors are glued to me. My Druid can keep them off me to an extent, but I take more damage from a Warrior than I can do to a Druid. Factor in Hamstrings on me ... basically always ... and killing a good Druid is very, very difficult.
Most Rogue/Druid 2s guides I have read recommend going toe-to-toe with the Warrior (in fact, they mention it in a way that makes it sound easy!!), forcing the druid to heal the warrior, and then shadowstepping onto the Druid when they have used Swiftmend or NS... Ya, right, like I can force an NS on a Warrior.
Good luck on that 'raying'...
I play with a priest, not a druid, so my tips might not be good for you, but here goes anyway.
The main problem is that warriors are just a superior class to use in 2v2. They do burst dps where we do sustained, they have better mobility and in this setting, there isn't enough 'damage' around to truly make their 10% increased damage from berserker stance a weakness, especially since any 2s with a rogue in it has to deal with their armor. Improved Hamstring and Mace stuns are just icing on the cake.
Our strategy so far has been to ignore the warrior and go for the healer. Getting on the warrior usually means just feeding him rage, and rogues are pretty damn ineffective at stopping a warrior anyway. Our stuns gives them back rage, their favorite teammates can all take care of crippling poison and Intercept mean that eventually, they'll simply get away.
Sadly, this is easily counter-able by any warrior that has a clue. Just abuse Intercept and Intervene, keeping me snared (with possible mace stuns) and going back to the priest. Or hell, just stay on the rogue. Eventually he'll run out of way to avoid damage and then he'll get stunned/snared to oblivion.
However, at our current rating (My new priest and I hit 1860 yesterday) it works very well, because a lot of warriors are pretty bad: Even at 2ks rating in previous seasons, we'd often bump into warriors that were keyboard turners. Tunnel vision is also extremely frequent. Basically, you've got to play your A-game and hope the warrior team screws up, because if they also play their A-game, they will win.
Warrior + Priest: The easiest one. Between Mind-numbing and Wound Poison and kick/gouge, I can nullify a priest's healing even better then a Warrior can lock down my priest's. Aggressive use of Vanish for Garotte is key here as well as the proper timing of your kidney shot.
Warrior + Shaman: Once again, it all depends on how smart the warrior is. And how lucky he is. On top of mace proc and imp hamstring procs, you now got Windfury totem kicking in. RNG 4tw. Getting a early dispel to take care of earthshield helps a lot. If your priest can kite the warrior outside of WF totem range, even better. As the Shaman drops down in help more, you want your priest to come back in to dispel ES again, so you can use a Vanish/CS/KS (try to get EA up) and finish him off.
Warrior + Druid: On this one, a lot of the pressure to not ***** up is actually on the druid. My priest is human, so he'll usually pop perception when the warrior engage him and try to dot the druid out of stealth (They quite often prowl near their warrior)... getting the opener on the druid is huge, but quite often I'll have to break stealth and get on the warrior to save my priest.
A lot of druid don't seem to realize they have bear form and that between their armor, resilience and Natural Perfection, they have almost 85% physical damage mitigation in that form. Instead, they keep trying to run away by switching between Caster and Travel form. So stay on them. Use shadowstep/vanish/sprint and don't be afraid to prep. Try and KS when in travel form if at all possible and have your priest friend toss in some damage (even if it's just sw:pain). Even the dimmest warrior will usually intercept you/intervene his druid once to try and protect him... but that's okay, if he only does it once or twice. The bad one do it once or twice and then forget about you, seemingly thinking their druid buddy is fine now. The smart warriors simply never stop, and eventually you run out of tricks.
Those two class in 2v2 are so strong however, that even if the warrior isn't good, they can quite possibly beat you. They have tons of room for error and it truly doesn't take much time for a druid to heal himself back to full if you aren't constantly glued to him.
Warrior + Paladin: I'm starting to think this combo is actually better than druid/warrior. It's certainly rarer now, but it seems those guys are always good... which I guess makes sense, when you play a comp with an inherent weakness, you need to make up for it somehow. Our success rate against this comp has been the worse of all the Warrior + Healer so far.
The 'go for the healer' strat doesn't work to hot when the healer is in plate. Going to need to figure out something here.
I play with a priest, not a druid, so my tips might not be good for you, but here goes anyway.
The main problem is that warriors are just a superior class to use in 2v2. They do burst dps where we do sustained, they have better mobility and in this setting, there isn't enough 'damage' around to truly make their 10% increased damage from berserker stance a weakness, especially since any 2s with a rogue in it has to deal with their armor. Improved Hamstring and Mace stuns are just icing on the cake.
Our strategy so far has been to ignore the warrior and go for the healer. Getting on the warrior usually means just feeding him rage, and rogues are pretty damn ineffective at stopping a warrior anyway. Our stuns gives them back rage, their favorite teammates can all take care of crippling poison and Intercept mean that eventually, they'll simply get away.
Sadly, this is easily counter-able by any warrior that has a clue. Just abuse Intercept and Intervene, keeping me snared (with possible mace stuns) and going back to the priest. Or hell, just stay on the rogue. Eventually he'll run out of way to avoid damage and then he'll get stunned/snared to oblivion.
However, at our current rating (My new priest and I hit 1860 yesterday) it works very well, because a lot of warriors are pretty bad: Even at 2ks rating in previous seasons, we'd often bump into warriors that were keyboard turners. Tunnel vision is also extremely frequent. Basically, you've got to play your A-game and hope the warrior team screws up, because if they also play their A-game, they will win.
Warrior + Priest: The easiest one. Between Mind-numbing and Wound Poison and kick/gouge, I can nullify a priest's healing even better then a Warrior can lock down my priest's. Aggressive use of Vanish for Garotte is key here as well as the proper timing of your kidney shot.
Warrior + Shaman: Once again, it all depends on how smart the warrior is. And how lucky he is. On top of mace proc and imp hamstring procs, you now got Windfury totem kicking in. RNG 4tw. Getting a early dispel to take care of earthshield helps a lot. If your priest can kite the warrior outside of WF totem range, even better. As the Shaman drops down in help more, you want your priest to come back in to dispel ES again, so you can use a Vanish/CS/KS (try to get EA up) and finish him off.
Warrior + Druid: On this one, a lot of the pressure to not ***** up is actually on the druid. My priest is human, so he'll usually pop perception when the warrior engage him and try to dot the druid out of stealth (They quite often prowl near their warrior)... getting the opener on the druid is huge, but quite often I'll have to break stealth and get on the warrior to save my priest.
A lot of druid don't seem to realize they have bear form and that between their armor, resilience and Natural Perfection, they have almost 85% physical damage mitigation in that form. Instead, they keep trying to run away by switching between Caster and Travel form. So stay on them. Use shadowstep/vanish/sprint and don't be afraid to prep. Try and KS when in travel form if at all possible and have your priest friend toss in some damage (even if it's just sw:pain). Even the dimmest warrior will usually intercept you/intervene his druid once to try and protect him... but that's okay, if he only does it once or twice. The bad one do it once or twice and then forget about you, seemingly thinking their druid buddy is fine now. The smart warriors simply never stop, and eventually you run out of tricks.
Those two class in 2v2 are so strong however, that even if the warrior isn't good, they can quite possibly beat you. They have tons of room for error and it truly doesn't take much time for a druid to heal himself back to full if you aren't constantly glued to him.
Warrior + Paladin: I'm starting to think this combo is actually better than druid/warrior. It's certainly rarer now, but it seems those guys are always good... which I guess makes sense, when you play a comp with an inherent weakness, you need to make up for it somehow. Our success rate against this comp has been the worse of all the Warrior + Healer so far.
The 'go for the healer' strat doesn't work to hot when the healer is in plate. Going to need to figure out something here.
Jordster, Assassin Reject wrote:
The problem is - if you saw a Rogue in S1 shoulders and a Druid in S3 shoulders, who would you get on?
Smart warriors are glued to me. My Druid can keep them off me to an extent, but I take more damage from a Warrior than I can do to a Druid. Factor in Hamstrings on me ... basically always ... and killing a good Druid is very, very difficult.
Most Rogue/Druid 2s guides I have read recommend going toe-to-toe with the Warrior (in fact, they mention it in a way that makes it sound easy!!), forcing the druid to heal the warrior, and then shadowstepping onto the Druid when they have used Swiftmend or NS... Ya, right, like I can force an NS on a Warrior.
Well, if you want to force an NS just evasion him and spam hemo with dots ticking? I doubt restealthing is going to help you when all you want is raw dps. Especially seeing as he's going to be full HP and covered in HoTs when you start on him again. If the warrior is beating on you with evasion (make sure he doesn't overlap you and hit from behind) you can have druid putting some pressure on him with dps as well as cycloning the healer. Alternatively, have your druid cyclone the warrior when he dips low and you're out of energy to let you regen it and start from fresh (probably best not if you're burning evasion time). Also a good thing to try if you get cycloned.
Ultimately it might just be your lack of gear if the warrior is full vengeful. If you can't do enough dps to him to force a NS then that tactic isn;t gonna work so well.
If you were Human I'd suggest opening on the druid, forcing him to blow trinket on KS and then blinding him in cow/nelf form if you can, dpsing his warrior w/ evasion, vanishing and applying a sap to him and then dpsing his warrior with your druid taking over with 4 sec and then 2 sec cyclone (DR from blind) on the druid, then bashing him. That'd force an NS for sure (at the least), but it kind of relies on luck to be able to vanish - sap him (need no bleedz or good timing).
Anyway, take this post with a grain of salt, it is only based off what i think would work and 2300+ rated arena videos I found (in which people tend to do showy things even if they're not actually a good idea most of the time).
I really like the idea of cycloning the Druid when I'm low on energy ... I'm definitely going to work that in. Above all, it gives me 9 seconds to Shadowstep to the Druid, hit him a few times, and ultimately send him running away from me right on time to get back on the Warrior.
It's mainly that you don't have the gear to stand up to a warrior 1v1. With full S1/partial S3, I could stand up to a warrior with skillherald and minimal healing from a priest with 1k healing.
The sequence I usually put up is premed > garrote > shiv > rupture > vanish (this needs to be done as fast as possible) > CS > etc.
That puts major strain on the druid, giving you a chance to pop over to the druid, or after your CS runs out to pop Evasion/GS and go toe to toe with him. Your druid looks to be really good, so he shouldn't have trouble trying to get the other druid to LOS him, but TBH the odds are stacked against you without a priest, mage, or lock in this comp.
The sequence I usually put up is premed > garrote > shiv > rupture > vanish (this needs to be done as fast as possible) > CS > etc.
That puts major strain on the druid, giving you a chance to pop over to the druid, or after your CS runs out to pop Evasion/GS and go toe to toe with him. Your druid looks to be really good, so he shouldn't have trouble trying to get the other druid to LOS him, but TBH the odds are stacked against you without a priest, mage, or lock in this comp.
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