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#27 Apr 20 2008 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Mazra wrote:
Gaudion wrote:
Some of you need to respec. I reccomend a 41/20/0 build with Thicker Skin and Sarcasm.


My skin is like black dragonscale, mate.

So it was useless even back when you got it at level 55-60, and even more worthless from there, and continually gets you one-shotted by level 70s?

Hm. I don't think you meant it that way. Smiley: frown
#28 Apr 21 2008 at 6:06 AM Rating: Decent
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My skin is like black dragonscale, mate

Nerd jokes. This is how the internet dies.
#29 Apr 21 2008 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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Sinstralis wrote:
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My skin is like black dragonscale, mate

Nerd jokes. This is how the internet is sustained.


http://deathboy.livejournal.com/1082404.html
#30 Apr 21 2008 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Mazra wrote:
Gaudion wrote:
Some of you need to respec. I reccomend a 41/20/0 build with Thicker Skin and Sarcasm.


My skin is like black dragonscale, mate.

So it was useless even back when you got it at level 55-60, and even more worthless from there, and continually gets you one-shotted by level 70s?

Hm. I don't think you meant it that way. Smiley: frown


Black Dragonscale was the king of Old Azeroth. At least for Hunters.
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#31 Apr 21 2008 at 3:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Mazra wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Mazra wrote:
Gaudion wrote:
Some of you need to respec. I reccomend a 41/20/0 build with Thicker Skin and Sarcasm.


My skin is like black dragonscale, mate.

So it was useless even back when you got it at level 55-60, and even more worthless from there, and continually gets you one-shotted by level 70s?

Hm. I don't think you meant it that way. Smiley: frown


Black Dragonscale was the king of Old Azeroth. At least for Hunters.

Unless you did PvP or raided, then it was still crap. Smiley: tongue
#32 Apr 21 2008 at 8:46 PM Rating: Default
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I really don't see how shaman would be any less qualified for a 5 man instance, earthen shield has really brought the shaman class up to par with other healing classes as far as 5 man instances go. Depending on the situation the strength of our chain heal spell is amazing as well. The only bad healers in 5 mans are players that suck, or are heavily under geared for the instance they are trying to heal.
#33 Apr 21 2008 at 11:12 PM Rating: Decent
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jmfmb wrote:
I really don't see how shaman would be any less qualified for a 5 man instance, earthen shield has really brought the shaman class up to par with other healing classes as far as 5 man instances go. Depending on the situation the strength of our chain heal spell is amazing as well. The only bad healers in 5 mans are players that suck, or are heavily under geared for the instance they are trying to heal.

/sigh

You're missing the point entirely. When objectively comparing the four classes capable of healing, Shaman are not as adept at single-target maintainance as Paladins and Druids, and are about even with Priests. And since five-man content is almost entirely single-target healing (as no one other than your tank should be getting hit 90% of the time), yes, that does make them less qualified.

Now, for the fourth time... and this is getting old... being "less qualified" does not mean they're not qualified at all. Five-man content is easy to heal period until you get into heroics.

Shaman are the most adept cross-raid healers for most of the raid content out there. They're great healers in their own right, so trying to justify them as single-target healers is pointless. Just let it go and leave the tank-healing to Paladins, Druids, and even Priests. Ignoring our strengths and fighting for recognition in a role we don't excel at--while others clearly do--is stupid.
#34 Apr 22 2008 at 1:10 AM Rating: Good
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
Unless you did PvP or raided, then it was still crap. Smiley: tongue


It was bad for raiding? I saw a lot of Hunters enter Molten Core in that gear and come out in shiny epics. With all the fire resistance on it (and you needed it back then), it was pretty much the Molten Core rookie gear.

How far do you go back? Smiley: dubious
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#35 Apr 22 2008 at 2:39 AM Rating: Good
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You're missing the point entirely. When objectively comparing the four classes capable of healing, Shaman are not as adept at single-target maintainance as Paladins and Druids, and are about even with Priests. And since five-man content is almost entirely single-target healing (as no one other than your tank should be getting hit 90% of the time), yes, that does make them less qualified.


i dunno man. a full-time +18% to their big heal does a lot for single target maintenance.
#36 Apr 22 2008 at 4:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Isn't Earth Shield pretty useful for single-target maintenance?
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#37 Apr 22 2008 at 5:53 AM Rating: Decent
Earth Shield is only around a 1.2k heal (for me right now). As useful as it is, it still doesn't make you prefer me over an equally geared/skilled paladin healer for 5-mans.
#38 Apr 22 2008 at 6:53 AM Rating: Good
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Isn't Earth Shield pretty useful for single-target maintenance?


Yes, Earth Shield and Healing Way are both useful. Hopefully nobody is bad enough here to buy into the idea that shamans can't mainheal any 5-man instance (heroic or otherwise) with ease. We can.

Furthermore, 5-mans are easy. Most of the time taking the "worst" single-target healer who brings awesome DPS buffs is preferable to taking the best single-target healer who barely accelerates his party's DPS at all. The only exception to this is when the entire group is undergeared. (the other exception is when the group is terribad)

It's concerning to hear people overlook some of the issues other healers face for 5-mans. Druids have no OOC rez! That's pretty huge. Paladins have weak (nonexistant) AOE healing capabilities. That's also significant. Priests...well...I think priests are pretty amazing for 5-mans tbh, and cloth armor is probably their weakest trait as a 5-man healer (if fade or fear doesn't get the mob off them, they're in far worse shape than a mail-wearing shaman healer with his constant supply of slows.)
#39 Apr 22 2008 at 7:47 AM Rating: Decent
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18% stronger or not, Healing Wave is still a slow and Lesser Healing Wave is still extremely inefficient. Earth Shield is great, but proccing on hits every couple seconds or so makes it equivalent to a kind of damage mitigation more so than healing. It is, at the very least, not something you want to rely on heavily to do a great portion of your active healing.

Axehilt wrote:
Quote:
Isn't Earth Shield pretty useful for single-target maintenance?

Furthermore, 5-mans are easy. Most of the time taking the "worst" single-target healer who brings awesome DPS buffs is preferable to taking the best single-target healer who barely accelerates his party's DPS at all. The only exception to this is when the entire group is undergeared. (the other exception is when the group is terribad)

Depends on your party make-up, really. Your buffs might do the party a lot of good or they might do very little. That's also a matter of opinion. As easy as five-mans are (and as little good as our buffs actually do in heroics), I'd personally just rather have better healer along. Better mana efficiency = less down time. Of course, as I'm a Shaman healer, ***** the rest of them. Take me. =P

Quote:
It's concerning to hear people overlook some of the issues other healers face for 5-mans. Druids have no OOC rez! That's pretty huge.

It can be, but every heal-capable class out there with a DPS spec can still rez, so you can cover yourself there.

Quote:
Paladins have weak (nonexistant) AOE healing capabilities. That's also significant.

Not really. Even when heroic, most five-man content is (or should be) almost exclusively tank-healing, and most little slip-ups or AoE's can be easily marginalized by a quick FoL and/or BoP.

Quote:
Priests...well...I think priests are pretty amazing for 5-mans tbh, and cloth armor is probably their weakest trait as a 5-man healer (if fade or fear doesn't get the mob off them, they're in far worse shape than a mail-wearing shaman healer with his constant supply of slows.)

True, but if your Priest and tank are worth their salt it's a non-issue.
#40 Apr 22 2008 at 7:53 AM Rating: Good
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Gaudion wrote:
five-man content is almost entirely single-target healing

A lot of 5-man bosses have AoE effects that can deal high damage to other party members. Keeping DPS up is important on a fight like that, and it's a PAIN with single target heals only.
#41 Apr 22 2008 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Gaudion wrote:
five-man content is almost entirely single-target healing

A lot of 5-man bosses have AoE effects that can deal high damage to other party members. Keeping DPS up is important on a fight like that, and it's a PAIN with single target heals only.


Shamans also have a restorative totems which will heal all party members for 100 hp/2 sec (depending on your + healing) which can help with AoE splash damage during 5 mans. I don't know how many of the other healing classes have it but a shaman procing an ancestral fortitude will mitigate tank damage as well. But Gaudion's point is taken that chain heals allow resto Shamans to really shine during raids and MT healing is not our forte.

#42 Apr 22 2008 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
A drawback to being a resto shaman is many people think that healing as a resto shaman is "Ez mode". So even though I always top heals in raids (which is why I'm the "Main healer" for our guild and have earned a high rank) some of the newer members disagree with it. Smiley: frown
#43 Apr 22 2008 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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jvscubadude wrote:
But Gaudion's point is taken that chain heals allow resto Shamans to really shine during raids and MT healing is not our forte.

That's all I'm saying.
#44 Apr 22 2008 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
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I never said Shaman were bad healers. I said they were worse tank healers than the other three classes.


I actually think this is ... kind of wrong.

If you spec in resto SPECIFICALLY for being able to main-tank heal, you can do it just as well. Healing Grace only procs off of Healing Wave (which is generally never cast in raids, which is why quite a few raid specs leave it out). If you are main tank healing, that's a +18% healing (which also only procs on healing wave) which can make Healing Wave rather beefy. If you use the +healing to healing wave totem from Heroic SP or UB (I forget which one I got it from), you can do just as well as other classes at main tank healing. I've had 7.8k crit healing waves.. and my gear isn't even THAT impressive. I'm probably the 4th best geared resto shammy in my guild because I get unlucky kara runs and still sport 3 blues.

This being said, we are amazing raid healers. So, use your arguably best raid healer to main-tank heal... or let your healers who don't raid heal well main-tank heal? Shamans aren't given the opportunity to main-tank heal often because of the fact others aren't as good at raid healing. Pallies are probably the worst raid healers (I think very few people would argue with that). CoH priests can be good raid healers, but not all spec for it due to supposed mana-efficiency. Druids are probably better raid healers on some boss fights where you are very mobile and spread out (Void Reaver comes to mind for the ranged dps). But "fast" raid heals are rarely beat from Shamans (melee heals on Void Reaver for instance) where you have to heal them fast between poundings.

The only problem with the other specs is that there are a limited number of spots in a raid. Generally have 1 healing group, 1 tank group and then 3 dps groups (generally 1 melee, 1 hunter/ranged, and 1 caster group). You will probably never have more than 5 shamans in a raid, which I would say is an over-estimation. Two or three resto shamans can do amazing things with raid heals since chain heal is auto-jump to who needs healing. It's faster at deciding than any healer can think. You'd put an elemental shaman with the caster group. And 1 or MAYBE 2 enhancement shamans with the melee or hunter/ranged dps groups.

I love my shaman. I've always been resto, but I've played it as a resto/enhancement hybrid and put out some impressive numbers (was #2 [close to #1]) dps in a mana tombs run back then. I carried an elemental set of gear too. Though my dps wasn't amazing because I never spec'ed into it, I carried my own decently enough. I will say if you want to be effective end-game, you will have to decide. Truly hybrid specs do not work (only real exception is for elemental to get NS).

Quote:
You're missing the point entirely. When objectively comparing the four classes capable of healing, Shaman are not as adept at single-target maintainance as Paladins and Druids, and are about even with Priests. And since five-man content is almost entirely single-target healing (as no one other than your tank should be getting hit 90% of the time), yes, that does make them less qualified.


I actually HATE pally healers in 5 mans. They have no AOE whatsoever. You say that "you only really heal the tank." -.- Every boss I know has AOE damage. Either through adds or random charge or whatever. There is always aoe damage. Pallies are great at keeping one person alive. As soon as aoe happens, they have to start spamming FoL all around and the tank can go down fast when their attention is divided. Shammy can just center Chain heal on the tank and heal up the group... then go back to healing waves. There are very few times on my shaman where I wished I was another class to heal. The only recent experience was heroic BM and we still had no one die the entire time. The final boss has this retarded huge aoe stun. All I could do was sit and watch the tank fall lower and lower while I spammed my heals hoping to come out of stun. But again, keeping ES on him helped him from dying and giving me time to top him off again.

Earth Shield alone can heal a good tank in most instances on trash. On bosses, healing wave + chain heal is more than sufficient. If things get dicey, pop heroism and your heals are going off much faster... dps is going faster for a shorter fight. Throw out fire elemental and you've got a 6th party member doing some good dps. Shaman has quite a few things going for it as a healer for 5 and 10 man content that you seem to like to overlook.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2008 1:22pm by Jiade
#45 Apr 22 2008 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think gaudion was talking about what we can do in raids, we all know shaman are great for raids to help aoe heal the groups and can really shine in some fights.
#46 Apr 22 2008 at 1:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Earth Shield is only around a 1.2k heal (for me right now). As useful as it is, it still doesn't make you prefer me over an equally geared/skilled paladin healer for 5-mans.


you really need to transfer to my server DP. ill show you things you never knew your class was capable of.
#47 Apr 22 2008 at 1:29 PM Rating: Default
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jmfmb wrote:
I don't think gaudion was talking about what we can do in raids, we all know shaman are great for raids to help aoe heal the groups and can really shine in some fights.

Actually, that was what I was talking about. I don't understand why everyone's suddenly so hung up on proving Shaman are great single-target healers when we're always going to have a place reserved for us as cross-heal raids.

/shrug

Jiade wrote:
Quote:
I never said Shaman were bad healers. I said they were worse tank healers than the other three classes.


I actually think this is ... kind of wrong.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion... I definitely don't share it though.

Quote:
If you spec in resto SPECIFICALLY for being able to main-tank heal, you can do it just as well. Healing Grace only procs off of Healing Wave (which is generally never cast in raids, which is why quite a few raid specs leave it out). If you are main tank healing, that's a +18% healing (which also only procs on healing wave) which can make Healing Wave rather beefy. If you use the +healing to healing wave totem from Heroic SP or UB (I forget which one I got it from), you can do just as well as other classes at main tank healing. I've had 7.8k crit healing waves.. and my gear isn't even THAT impressive. I'm probably the 4th best geared resto shammy in my guild because I get unlucky kara runs and still sport 3 blues.

Tank healing is not just about big numbers. It's also about being fast, efficient, and keeping the tank as high as possible at all times. In most ten-man and 25-man content, you just can not sit around and wait until your tank is missing 6k HP before you start healing him, or one unlucky hit can leave you with a dead tank. Your other option would be to overheal by a mile, which, again, leaves you pretty mana-inefficient. Furthermore, most raid boss and even some trash mechanics necessitate movement regularly or even constantly, and having to spend a few seconds running and then stopping and waiting another 2.5 seconds for Healing Wave to go off could, again, potentially leave you with a dead tank.

There's just no point in bringing a Resto Shaman along as a tank-healer when the other classes can heal faster, more efficiently, and in the case of Priests and Druids, while mobile. If there's no one else around Shaman can do it on some of the content out there, but it's generally better to just get one of the other classes to do it so we can stick to what we're best at: raid healing.

Quote:
Earth Shield alone can heal a good tank in most instances on trash.

Not past any of the "normal" content, it can't. Heroics (unless your tank is supremely overgeared) and all raid content is going to require active healing.
#48 Apr 22 2008 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Mazra wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Unless you did PvP or raided, then it was still crap. Smiley: tongue


It was bad for raiding? I saw a lot of Hunters enter Molten Core in that gear and come out in shiny epics. With all the fire resistance on it (and you needed it back then), it was pretty much the Molten Core rookie gear.

How far do you go back? Smiley: dubious

I raided in MC, BWL, AQ, and briefly in Naxx.

Here's some of the retro gear I had.

Of course, I had Crusader on my CTS for a while, but when I replaced it I put Fiery on it for the lulz.

All of that gear is gone now, though. I needed bank space.
#49 Apr 23 2008 at 5:00 AM Rating: Good
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you really need to transfer to my server DP. ill show you things you never knew your class was capable of.


O trust me, once I get t5/t6 geared I'll be the best healer on my server. Not a lot of people doubt it either.
#50 Apr 23 2008 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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I just discovered healbot...which is pretty damn awesome.
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#51 Apr 23 2008 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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O trust me, once I get t5/t6 geared I'll be the best healer on my server. Not a lot of people doubt it either.


we'll make you the best in blues.
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