It's pretty obvious how good the dragonspine trophy is...
But what about smaller amount of haste?
I ask because I got the Distracting Blades a few days ago, and I wonder if it'd actually be better then my Sunfury Bow of the Pheonix.
We're essentially talking 10 Haste vs 8atk and 5agi. It's probably not much of a difference either way.
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How good is haste?Follow
It's about this good.
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Seriously, Rogues actually have a superb spreadsheet; I'd use it.
EDIT: In terms of white attacks, it's better than Hit is... and gets even more superior the more Hit and Crit you have.
Edited, Apr 14th 2008 7:10pm by RPZip
Edited, Apr 14th 2008 7:10pm by RPZip
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Seriously, Rogues actually have a superb spreadsheet; I'd use it.
EDIT: In terms of white attacks, it's better than Hit is... and gets even more superior the more Hit and Crit you have.
Edited, Apr 14th 2008 7:10pm by RPZip
Edited, Apr 14th 2008 7:10pm by RPZip
I am at work, bored and away from my spreadsheet. :(
Quote:
I am at work, bored and away from my spreadsheet. :(
I'm aghast at such a waste of business resources! Is it 5pm yet? hehe..
But from an informal test, the Blades gave me a bit more total DPS over 30 talbuk stags than my gun from Kara did. So I'm keeping the Blades. Maybe not the best way to test gear, but so far seems to work well enough.
According to shadowpanther
Distracting Blades - AEP 38 - MAEP 40
Sunfury Bow - AEP 42 - MAEP 39
Distracting Blades - AEP 38 - MAEP 40
Sunfury Bow - AEP 42 - MAEP 39
well, forgive my complete lack of numbers, but more haste = more combat potency, which = more energy, which = more spamage (get it? spam + damage! note the single M).
in this case youre looking at a loss of a wee bit of crit and 13 ap, vs a gain of 10 haste. last i checked, 2 ap was about the same as 1 haste before talents, so 13 ap is about 6.5 haste, give or take. add in what combat potency can give you and i think the gain from haste, for a rogue at least, is much greater than the gain from ap, at least in this case.
in this case youre looking at a loss of a wee bit of crit and 13 ap, vs a gain of 10 haste. last i checked, 2 ap was about the same as 1 haste before talents, so 13 ap is about 6.5 haste, give or take. add in what combat potency can give you and i think the gain from haste, for a rogue at least, is much greater than the gain from ap, at least in this case.
Quote:
well, forgive my complete lack of numbers, but more haste = more combat potency, which = more energy, which = more spamage (get it? spam + damage! note the single M).
I don't disagree with that, but 10 Haste is a .63% speed increase. That's not really impressive :P. The crit/atk from the bow isn't impressive either, but it does apply to everything I do, including special attacks, while haste doesn't affect my finishers and Sinister Strike spam.
Quote:
in this case youre looking at a loss of a wee bit of crit and 13 ap, vs a gain of 10 haste. last i checked, 2 ap was about the same as 1 haste before talents, so 13 ap is about 6.5 haste, give or take. add in what combat potency can give you and i think the gain from haste, for a rogue at least, is much greater than the gain from ap, at least in this case.
It's a shame you don't have numbers, as a 1haste=2ap thing is exactly what I was looking for. Sadly, without number to back it up, I'm a bit hesitant to just go along with it.
im basing it off the uber-simplified warrior dps table:
now, not all of that translates directly for rogues (1 str isnt 2.2 ap, its 1.1 for rogues with kings up), but the ap/haste ratios still work since ap and haste apply equally to the two melee classes. since rogues only get 1 ap from str and 1 ap from agi, we can call 2 agi ~= to 1.3 haste (since thatll give rogues 2.2 ap with kings). so in this case youve got 13 ap and negligible crit compared to 10 haste rating. 13 ap equates to about 11 agi (rounding up), which in turn equates to about 10 haste rating. but, as noted, rogues get more from haste than ap, and since the two are about equal in terms of conversion, id say snag the haste, even if it is a pretty minor amount. after all, every little bit adds up.
oops, forgot that only 5 ap is coming from agi. in that case, its 8 ap + 5 agi (which comes to 5.5 ap with kings) vs 10 haste. that lowers the equivalency down to about 8 haste rating with everything factored in (including the wee crit from agi). so from a pure min/max perspective, the haste is better, even before the side bonuses of haste rating are added in. as simplified as you can make it, 22 ap is about equal to 13 haste rating for a rogue.
Edited, Apr 14th 2008 6:00pm by Quor
Quote:
1 STR ~= 2.2 AP ~= 1.05 Crit ~= 1.3 Haste ~= 1.45 AGI ~= 1.66 Hit ~= 6.5 Armor Penetration
now, not all of that translates directly for rogues (1 str isnt 2.2 ap, its 1.1 for rogues with kings up), but the ap/haste ratios still work since ap and haste apply equally to the two melee classes. since rogues only get 1 ap from str and 1 ap from agi, we can call 2 agi ~= to 1.3 haste (since thatll give rogues 2.2 ap with kings). so in this case youve got 13 ap and negligible crit compared to 10 haste rating. 13 ap equates to about 11 agi (rounding up), which in turn equates to about 10 haste rating. but, as noted, rogues get more from haste than ap, and since the two are about equal in terms of conversion, id say snag the haste, even if it is a pretty minor amount. after all, every little bit adds up.
oops, forgot that only 5 ap is coming from agi. in that case, its 8 ap + 5 agi (which comes to 5.5 ap with kings) vs 10 haste. that lowers the equivalency down to about 8 haste rating with everything factored in (including the wee crit from agi). so from a pure min/max perspective, the haste is better, even before the side bonuses of haste rating are added in. as simplified as you can make it, 22 ap is about equal to 13 haste rating for a rogue.
Edited, Apr 14th 2008 6:00pm by Quor
Those numbers are way wrong for Rogues, Quor. Hit is extremely poor for Warriors because of Heroic Strike turning many mainhand attacks into special (9% miss) attacks. It's extremely good for Rogues because all their autoattacks use the base dual wield miss chance, and because it gives them additional yellow damage via Combat Potency as well.
Plus all the Strength numbers, for example.
Plus all the Strength numbers, for example.
Again, shadowpanther :P
1 MAEP = .9091 Agi = 100 Sta = 1.8182 Str = .8696 Hit = 1.1111 Crit = 2 AP = 1 Haste = 0.8 Expertise = 6.6667 Arm Pen = 666.67 Def = 1000 Resil/Dod/Par/Arm/Resist = .25 B Gem = .1111 R/Y Gem = .025 Meta
Not sure if it's right or not, but thats the formula they use for their "PVE Max DPS" charts
http://shadowpanther.net/aep.htm
Edited, Apr 14th 2008 9:48pm by mikelolol
1 MAEP = .9091 Agi = 100 Sta = 1.8182 Str = .8696 Hit = 1.1111 Crit = 2 AP = 1 Haste = 0.8 Expertise = 6.6667 Arm Pen = 666.67 Def = 1000 Resil/Dod/Par/Arm/Resist = .25 B Gem = .1111 R/Y Gem = .025 Meta
Not sure if it's right or not, but thats the formula they use for their "PVE Max DPS" charts
http://shadowpanther.net/aep.htm
Edited, Apr 14th 2008 9:48pm by mikelolol
then you better talk to devioususer zip; i ganked that little table from his sig lol. i know hit isnt super for warriors past the yellow attack cap, and im not sure exactly how ArP and crit all factor into everything but i think in terms of straight item stat comparison the ap/haste ratio thing stands. plus it is the "uber-simplified" version of things; i see it more as a quick and dirty comparison chart that you use under a certain set of assumptions (i.e. hit loses value past 9%, crit loses value past 33% etc.).
that was really the point i was trying to make. my understanding is that ap and haste apply to rogues and wars under the same general mechanics. the relative value of each stat is based on the actual talents of the classes however. therefore while 2.2 ap may be about equal to 1.3 haste for a rogue, the true value of that 1.3 haste is increased due to combat potency and the nature of rogue dps mechanics. i hope that clears up what i was tryng to say a little.
Edited, Apr 14th 2008 8:48pm by Quor
that was really the point i was trying to make. my understanding is that ap and haste apply to rogues and wars under the same general mechanics. the relative value of each stat is based on the actual talents of the classes however. therefore while 2.2 ap may be about equal to 1.3 haste for a rogue, the true value of that 1.3 haste is increased due to combat potency and the nature of rogue dps mechanics. i hope that clears up what i was tryng to say a little.
Edited, Apr 14th 2008 8:48pm by Quor
It's my SEP, Quor. I made it. I gave it to Devious. I know how good it is... for Warriors. I also know that Warriors and Rogues aren't even close to being the same class, and how different the gearing requirements are between the two.
And that's vaguely accurate, except that the way talents interact with it (Combat Potency gaining more off +Hit than +Haste, for example, versus being much better for a Warrior as it effects Heroic Strike) are quite different. You really can't make assumptions that it'd be good for one over the other using it. *shrug*
Edited, Apr 15th 2008 12:15am by RPZip
Edited, Apr 15th 2008 12:48am by RPZip
I've actually been looking a lot into +haste items... If you guys ever make another melee class or a hunter, and want to level up through the first 20 levels at near lightning speed, get some level one gloves and enchant them with +10 haste. You will have 26% additional attack speed until level 11, when it starts to lose its potency. I did this on my hunter alt and it made the first 10 levels wiithout my pet a joyride. It's like having perma S&D.
Is there a certain amount of haste where your additional dps will start to taper off, or will it keep adding the same way?
I can just imagine having S&D up, Mongoose procccing, DST proccing, Band of Devastation, head haste enchant, hand haste enchant, all with those nice looking Distracting Blades... excuse me while I go clean up.
Is there a certain amount of haste where your additional dps will start to taper off, or will it keep adding the same way?
I can just imagine having S&D up, Mongoose procccing, DST proccing, Band of Devastation, head haste enchant, hand haste enchant, all with those nice looking Distracting Blades... excuse me while I go clean up.
Quote:
It's my SEP, Quor. I made it. I gave it to Devious. I know how good it is... for Warriors. I also know that Warriors and Rogues aren't even close to being the same class, and how different the gearing requirements are between the two.
oh lol. well, i figured even despite their differences the ap/haste thing could be generalized. ah well.
Prikker wrote:
Because it's too good/because Blizzard don't want melee hitting really really fast?
Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
We're essentially talking 10 Haste vs 8atk and 5agi. It's probably not much of a difference either way.
1% haste adds 1% of your actual white DPS (which is the base white DPS minus misses and plus crits)
1% hit adds 1% of your white DPS base (does not include misses nor crits)
The moment your chance to crit becomes greater than your chance to miss (with dodge and parry included) haste will be more beneficial than +hit. Which is true for most rogues I believe. And the more +hit and +crit you have, the better haste becomes.
Poison damage and potency scale the same way with both hit and haste. WF too probably. Procs I think scale only with +hit, but that is not enough to tip the scales.
So, if you agree that 10hit would be better than 8AP and 5agi, then 10 haste will be even better.
So I put it in the spreadsheet... turns out I lose .12dps by using the blades.
So it's close, but the bow is better.
So it's close, but the bow is better.
Interesting topic, however ... can somebody point me to "The Spreadsheet" ... I have one for each of my other classes I play, and it'd be really cool to round off my collection.
Or do I make the straight off assumption that it's from EJ, and go there for it ? ;-)
Or do I make the straight off assumption that it's from EJ, and go there for it ? ;-)
robertlofthouse wrote:
Interesting topic, however ... can somebody point me to "The Spreadsheet" ... I have one for each of my other classes I play, and it'd be really cool to round off my collection.
Or do I make the straight off assumption that it's from EJ, and go there for it ? ;-)
Or do I make the straight off assumption that it's from EJ, and go there for it ? ;-)
rogue.radical.com
Overlord Theophany wrote:
robertlofthouse wrote:
Interesting topic, however ... can somebody point me to "The Spreadsheet" ... I have one for each of my other classes I play, and it'd be really cool to round off my collection.
Or do I make the straight off assumption that it's from EJ, and go there for it ? ;-)
Or do I make the straight off assumption that it's from EJ, and go there for it ? ;-)
rogue.raidcal.com
Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
So I put it in the spreadsheet... turns out I lose .12dps by using the blades.
So it's close, but the bow is better.
So it's close, but the bow is better.
In my case I get +0.15dps buffed moving from the Bow to the Blades.
BUT the AEP for haste is 0.9, while for +hit is 1.05. So clearly the spreadsheet does not agree with my reasoning. I better ask about that in the EJ forums.
Quor wrote:
well, forgive my complete lack of numbers, but more haste = more combat potency, which = more energy, which = more spamage (get it? spam + damage! note the single M).
in this case youre looking at a loss of a wee bit of crit and 13 ap, vs a gain of 10 haste. last i checked, 2 ap was about the same as 1 haste before talents, so 13 ap is about 6.5 haste, give or take. add in what combat potency can give you and i think the gain from haste, for a rogue at least, is much greater than the gain from ap, at least in this case.
in this case youre looking at a loss of a wee bit of crit and 13 ap, vs a gain of 10 haste. last i checked, 2 ap was about the same as 1 haste before talents, so 13 ap is about 6.5 haste, give or take. add in what combat potency can give you and i think the gain from haste, for a rogue at least, is much greater than the gain from ap, at least in this case.
I stack a bit of Haste in PvE sometimes when I'm spec'd combat for the extra 15 energy procs... I don't know how much it actually helps, but I feel like my energy flows pretty well anyway w/ that spec, and an extra ~50 haste helps at least a bit.
Wytryszek wrote:
Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
So I put it in the spreadsheet... turns out I lose .12dps by using the blades.
So it's close, but the bow is better.
So it's close, but the bow is better.
In my case I get +0.15dps buffed moving from the Bow to the Blades.
BUT the AEP for haste is 0.9, while for +hit is 1.05. So clearly the spreadsheet does not agree with my reasoning. I better ask about that in the EJ forums.
Hit is less valuable the more you have. AEP does not show this, and that is why a spreadsheet is > an AEP guide. AEP is a rough estimate. Trust the spreadsheet over the AEP system.
I was talking about the AEP calculated by the spreadsheet for the current build and gear (which was mine in this case)
The EJ folks responded why +hit is better than haste: +hit affects the chance of extra attacks from sword spec and WF to land, haste does not. I am not sure I buy it why it should produce 15% difference between the AEP of both stats, but that is clearly something I missed from my calculations.
The EJ folks responded why +hit is better than haste: +hit affects the chance of extra attacks from sword spec and WF to land, haste does not. I am not sure I buy it why it should produce 15% difference between the AEP of both stats, but that is clearly something I missed from my calculations.
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