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23 posts
im looking for some help for a lock friend of mine. hoping to get him ready for early raiding and arena pvp but im more concerned with the raiding. he has tailoring so hell be getting the spellstrike set along with the shadoweave set, that should be a good start. but can someone tell me the best or at least a good raiding spec. he is currently affliction. also is there a list of starting stats he should work towards like a certain amount of spell hit and cit and bonus damage? maybe some of the early 70 locks can post their armory so we can get a visual on what we are aiming for. and is affliction good for pvp as well or should he respec when he wants to get serious with arena. i have done some reading on these boards but there doesnt seem to be any one post about gearing for kara or specs for different types of gaming. any help is appreciated. thanks
23 posts
also im a rogue i know there are helpful websites like shadowpanther and elitistjerks that go into detail about gems and enchants and such, is there anything similar for locks? if so may you post them here
#3REDACTED,
Posted: Apr 12 2008 at 10:48 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You cant wear both at once, because you need to be specialized in each type of tailoring in order to make and wear a set.
You're thinking spellfire. You can wear spellstrike (hood + pants) and shadoweave (shoulders, robe, boots) at the same time.
23 posts
ok so demonology is a good all around build. but does anyone have ideas on starting stats for kara? what should we be aiming for? and are the starting stats different for the different talent specs?
#6REDACTED,
Posted: Apr 12 2008 at 12:11 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I started doing it at around 9000 health. We can afford to stack stamina gear at the cost of intellect, so you should have no trouble getting into 10,000 like I do now. My imp has become my general Karazhan minion, because people appreciate the stamina buff, and it can be VERY difficult to control your threat without assitance (imp grants 20% reduced threat). I switch between that and Felguard-- use the latter if you dont want to pull agro with your spells, but still do a lot of damage.
8.5k health (you need at least this much before the Shade fight)
7-8k mana
4% +spell hit (make sure he has a couple points in suppression if his hit rating is this low.)
10% +spell crit.
700 +spell damage (with fel armor)
It varies by spec (ex. destro needs more crit then aff), but that's *generaly* the recommended minimum stat requirements.
Ofc, I have a lock friend who went too kara with barley 500 spell power (more +healing...), far more health and no hit rating. So you could go with less, but if you really want too be benefiting your raid group and not just leaching, these are what you're friend should aim for at *minimum*. And honestly, with crafted epics, dungeon sets and badge gear...it really isn't that hard to get.
Best thing is to use thotbott/armory to find your gear upgrades and enchants. One good thing about being a lock is, aside from destro spec, it's not hard for us to farm at all.
Also, as a 17/42/0 demon build, I routinely out damage everyone in my group. Including our aff lock (and hes about as well geared as me). So it really depends on getting your spell rotation down and knowing what spells to use at the time to max your dps.
*edit: forgot to put crit % in*
Edited, Apr 14th 2008 3:00am by misttrik
7-8k mana
4% +spell hit (make sure he has a couple points in suppression if his hit rating is this low.)
10% +spell crit.
700 +spell damage (with fel armor)
It varies by spec (ex. destro needs more crit then aff), but that's *generaly* the recommended minimum stat requirements.
Ofc, I have a lock friend who went too kara with barley 500 spell power (more +healing...), far more health and no hit rating. So you could go with less, but if you really want too be benefiting your raid group and not just leaching, these are what you're friend should aim for at *minimum*. And honestly, with crafted epics, dungeon sets and badge gear...it really isn't that hard to get.
Best thing is to use thotbott/armory to find your gear upgrades and enchants. One good thing about being a lock is, aside from destro spec, it's not hard for us to farm at all.
Also, as a 17/42/0 demon build, I routinely out damage everyone in my group. Including our aff lock (and hes about as well geared as me). So it really depends on getting your spell rotation down and knowing what spells to use at the time to max your dps.
*edit: forgot to put crit % in*
Edited, Apr 14th 2008 3:00am by misttrik
Quote:
8.5k health (you need at least this much before the Shade fight)
7-8k mana
4% +spell hit (make sure he has a couple points in suppression if his hit rating is this low.)
10% +spell crit.
700 +spell damage (with fel armor)
7-8k mana
4% +spell hit (make sure he has a couple points in suppression if his hit rating is this low.)
10% +spell crit.
700 +spell damage (with fel armor)
This is fairly accurate although the 8.5k health is raid buffed, ideally you want 7.5k-8k with the imp and with buffs you'll surpass the HP required to survive his pyro.
Any warlock raiding build should have at least 10 points in Destruction for Improved Shadow Bolt and Bane. Sedrix somehow thinks that Drain Life can do as much damage as shadow bolts. It can't.
Drain life's base damage is 540 over 5 seconds. At 967 +shadow damage, my warlock's Drain life ticks for ~246 damage / sec (~1250 total damage over 5 seconds). In the same amount of time, I could cast 2 shadowbolts that hit for ~1400 each (2800 over 5 seconds). Soul Siphon caps at a 60% bonus to damage, potentially increasing Drain life to 1250 x 1.6 = 2000, still behind 2 non-crit shadow bolts (15 Affliction effects would require a minimum of 3 affliction locks and 1 other warlock, or 8 non-affliction warlocks).
Shadow Bolt spam does have the opportunity cost of not restoring 2500 health. So, if you are low on health, DL may be useful if the raid healer(s) is tied up.
Also, if you're raiding Demo, instead of saccing your FG when it's low on health, resummon him. Back at full health, still fully buffed.
Drain life's base damage is 540 over 5 seconds. At 967 +shadow damage, my warlock's Drain life ticks for ~246 damage / sec (~1250 total damage over 5 seconds). In the same amount of time, I could cast 2 shadowbolts that hit for ~1400 each (2800 over 5 seconds). Soul Siphon caps at a 60% bonus to damage, potentially increasing Drain life to 1250 x 1.6 = 2000, still behind 2 non-crit shadow bolts (15 Affliction effects would require a minimum of 3 affliction locks and 1 other warlock, or 8 non-affliction warlocks).
Shadow Bolt spam does have the opportunity cost of not restoring 2500 health. So, if you are low on health, DL may be useful if the raid healer(s) is tied up.
Also, if you're raiding Demo, instead of saccing your FG when it's low on health, resummon him. Back at full health, still fully buffed.
For an "optimum" Affliction build I think something like this should serve. Correct me if I'm wrong of course.
Edited, Apr 14th 2008 11:56am by germa
Edited, Apr 14th 2008 11:56am by germa
check out the raiding builds at wowmb.net
There's lots of great info over at the warlocks den.
There's lots of great info over at the warlocks den.
Ok so for raiding, you should disregard everything sederix told you, its pretty useless. First off, ALL raiding builds should have imp shadowbolt and bane, (with the exception of firelocks but some still put points into both). Shadowbolt will be 50%+ of your dps.
For affliction locks, the normal build is 41/0/20. This allows for UA and devastation/destructive reach from the destro tree for the extra crit and range. This spec is what most people prefer because it is one of the top dps builds and allows for sustained dps while moving.
For demonology, some go 7/43/11 for imp lifetap and another instant. I dont have any idea why sederix recommended a felguard spec and told you to use an imp for the 20% threat reduction. The felguard will be a large amount of your dps and you can just get a pally to hit you up with blessing of salvation. If you do not like the felguard, you can also spec 0/40/21 for the DT and ruin although this spec is probably one of the lowest dps specs.
For destro, the spec everyone uses for destro raiding is 0/21/40 for the sac. Almost all other destro specs are gimped compared to this. This spec is one of the easiest to use but the downfall being that it requires pretty intense stat requirements.
As for stats you want to focus on, stam really come last in raiding. Yes, you can lifetap for more mana but you will almost always get heals so it doesnt really matter. Hit rating is extremely important for destro locks (still important for other specs but just not as much as destro). Crit is important because most of your dps should be coming from direct dmg spells. And of course spell damage being equal to crit (after you hit 25% crit you really dont need to stack anymore).
Edited, Apr 15th 2008 12:23am by Tugnus
For affliction locks, the normal build is 41/0/20. This allows for UA and devastation/destructive reach from the destro tree for the extra crit and range. This spec is what most people prefer because it is one of the top dps builds and allows for sustained dps while moving.
For demonology, some go 7/43/11 for imp lifetap and another instant. I dont have any idea why sederix recommended a felguard spec and told you to use an imp for the 20% threat reduction. The felguard will be a large amount of your dps and you can just get a pally to hit you up with blessing of salvation. If you do not like the felguard, you can also spec 0/40/21 for the DT and ruin although this spec is probably one of the lowest dps specs.
For destro, the spec everyone uses for destro raiding is 0/21/40 for the sac. Almost all other destro specs are gimped compared to this. This spec is one of the easiest to use but the downfall being that it requires pretty intense stat requirements.
As for stats you want to focus on, stam really come last in raiding. Yes, you can lifetap for more mana but you will almost always get heals so it doesnt really matter. Hit rating is extremely important for destro locks (still important for other specs but just not as much as destro). Crit is important because most of your dps should be coming from direct dmg spells. And of course spell damage being equal to crit (after you hit 25% crit you really dont need to stack anymore).
Edited, Apr 15th 2008 12:23am by Tugnus
Ugh... the worst part about these threads is that I have to go through and sub-default people like Sederix before I can feel like my information won't be tainted by the stupidity.
General purpose raid utility affliction is a great way to start raiding and has a few good tricks for those sticky PvP situations. Affliction has a few "crutch" talents that let you make up for poor gear (things like Suppression), as well as a few talents that will provide you with a surprising amount of survivability in non-raid (i.e. Farming/PvP situations).
Fel Concentration is a very good talent for out of raid farming. iHoT is a very good PvP talent. When you're at the Kara/Heroics level, avoid Malediction since it really only shines in 25 mans with lots of casters.
This build is kinda whacky, but it gives a nice mix of solo, group, raid and PvP talents. If you're looking to free up points, Shadow Embrace is a good place to take them from but keep in mind that 5% less damage is a very big deal. If it comes down between that or Imp. Imp, you're almost always better off with Shadow Embrace.
It sucks but when you've got 1 toon with no real high powered gear you have to try to spec to be able to do everything decently rather than 1 thing well.
General purpose raid utility affliction is a great way to start raiding and has a few good tricks for those sticky PvP situations. Affliction has a few "crutch" talents that let you make up for poor gear (things like Suppression), as well as a few talents that will provide you with a surprising amount of survivability in non-raid (i.e. Farming/PvP situations).
Fel Concentration is a very good talent for out of raid farming. iHoT is a very good PvP talent. When you're at the Kara/Heroics level, avoid Malediction since it really only shines in 25 mans with lots of casters.
This build is kinda whacky, but it gives a nice mix of solo, group, raid and PvP talents. If you're looking to free up points, Shadow Embrace is a good place to take them from but keep in mind that 5% less damage is a very big deal. If it comes down between that or Imp. Imp, you're almost always better off with Shadow Embrace.
It sucks but when you've got 1 toon with no real high powered gear you have to try to spec to be able to do everything decently rather than 1 thing well.
Loki I'd take out 4 of those points from Shadow Embrace and put em somewhere else. Also, Improved Drain Soul is really only useful in PVE if you're either Soloing really easy stuff (for the mana) or Raiding with outstanding +Spell (for Threat Redux.) While the fact that the build empowers both is handy, fact is both are irrelevant since he wont be putting out that much Threat with Affliction, and Dark Pact will cover any ez-mode Farming.
ICoA is aight for PVP, although I personally didn't choose to put point into it since I'm always finding something else to Curse enemies with, and I would definatly pick up CoEx. Perhaps throw some of those extra points in Demonology for the Survivability, or find somewhere in Destro for them.
Just my personal recommendations, having recently come out of a build similar to that.
ICoA is aight for PVP, although I personally didn't choose to put point into it since I'm always finding something else to Curse enemies with, and I would definatly pick up CoEx. Perhaps throw some of those extra points in Demonology for the Survivability, or find somewhere in Destro for them.
Just my personal recommendations, having recently come out of a build similar to that.
Shadow Embrace is probably the best raid utility talent in the game. 5% less physical damage scales phenomenally, starts off excellent and continually gets better. There should always be 1 lock with 5/5 Shadow Embrace in a raid. Effects like Shadow Embrace and Blessing of Sanctuary take effect before anything else (including armor). This sucks for BoSanc, since it's a static number. This makes Shadow Embrace huge. For a raid boss's damage, think around 350-500 damage per hit. No one else provides a buff that big for a tank. While it provides less of an effect in heroics, it's still valuable. 1/5 is good for soloing (Soul Siphon) and PvP (Dispel Protection), but if you're doing any kind of raiding, 5/5 is huge.
Imp Drain Soul is questionably expendable. It stands to reason that a lock who is doing "early raiding" is doing it with people of a similar gear level. Yes, he may only be putting out 700 TPS, but if the tank is just barely geared up for the encounter his TPS is going to be pretty **** poor as well.
Imp Drain Soul is questionably expendable. It stands to reason that a lock who is doing "early raiding" is doing it with people of a similar gear level. Yes, he may only be putting out 700 TPS, but if the tank is just barely geared up for the encounter his TPS is going to be pretty **** poor as well.
Holy @#%^, why did they delete my post? LOL, you know if what I am saying is worth deleting, then I REALLY question the judgement of the moderators that leave posts that say things like "HUNTER WEAPON LAWL".
First of all, if my post still existed, WHERE did I ever say not to have any points in Destruction, and least of all not to have any in Improved Shadowbolt? Oh, right I didnt.
Second, "everything" I said was useless? Let's put that to the test. These were the reasons I said Demonology is appropriate for raiding, so why dont you tell me why you think those points are useless:
~20% Reduced Threat.
~Up to 30% damage mitigation.
~More endurance than the other trees; includes 15% reduced damage to minions.
~Personal buffs, for when the minion is about to die.
~A sh*t load of spell resistance that is not offered by the other trees.
~50% AOE resistance.
Let me get this straight. You think that all those things are not useful for raids, and the original poster should just assume they are not because you said so....
Last I checked, warlocks are agro magnets, and you are a ****** if you disagree because you either (a) have sh*tty gear, (b) group with people better than you, or (c) have never ran a raid with other people with an updated threat meter. So, reduced threat is a must have. I've been A and B myself, so you are a liar if you do not think those cant apply to you.
Up to 30% damage mitigation. I dont even think this needs explaining, but since you could be retarded, I will try. NOT DIEING IZ GUD.
Going on the whole staying alive thing, why in Azeroth would you consider increased health for both you and your minions "useless"?
The personal buffs are situational. I made the suggestion, because increased mana or health regeneration can be useful during a long fight where the healer really should not need to babysit you. Assuming you could be a drooler yourself, you must need a lot of babysitting.
Who the @#%^ does NOT want to live through an AOE by the Curaror (as one example)? The last two points are totally relevant for raiding. Almost ALL of the bosses in Karazhan and many heroic instances have spells and AOE effects... but you think lettting the healer pick up slack for your laziness is cool.
NO I did not ever say anything of the sort-- I never mentioned ANY Destruction spells or Affliction spells at all. And, you should edit your message, because my original comments are not there for me to explain myself.
And, that's why Demonology is appropriate for raiding.
*Bows out*
Edited, Apr 15th 2008 3:53pm by sederix
Edited, Apr 15th 2008 3:54pm by sederix
Quote:
Ok so for raiding, you should disregard everything sederix told you, its pretty useless. First off, ALL raiding builds should have imp shadowbolt and bane, (with the exception of firelocks but some still put points into both). Shadowbolt will be 50%+ of your dps.
First of all, if my post still existed, WHERE did I ever say not to have any points in Destruction, and least of all not to have any in Improved Shadowbolt? Oh, right I didnt.
Second, "everything" I said was useless? Let's put that to the test. These were the reasons I said Demonology is appropriate for raiding, so why dont you tell me why you think those points are useless:
~20% Reduced Threat.
~Up to 30% damage mitigation.
~More endurance than the other trees; includes 15% reduced damage to minions.
~Personal buffs, for when the minion is about to die.
~A sh*t load of spell resistance that is not offered by the other trees.
~50% AOE resistance.
Let me get this straight. You think that all those things are not useful for raids, and the original poster should just assume they are not because you said so....
Last I checked, warlocks are agro magnets, and you are a ****** if you disagree because you either (a) have sh*tty gear, (b) group with people better than you, or (c) have never ran a raid with other people with an updated threat meter. So, reduced threat is a must have. I've been A and B myself, so you are a liar if you do not think those cant apply to you.
Up to 30% damage mitigation. I dont even think this needs explaining, but since you could be retarded, I will try. NOT DIEING IZ GUD.
Going on the whole staying alive thing, why in Azeroth would you consider increased health for both you and your minions "useless"?
The personal buffs are situational. I made the suggestion, because increased mana or health regeneration can be useful during a long fight where the healer really should not need to babysit you. Assuming you could be a drooler yourself, you must need a lot of babysitting.
Who the @#%^ does NOT want to live through an AOE by the Curaror (as one example)? The last two points are totally relevant for raiding. Almost ALL of the bosses in Karazhan and many heroic instances have spells and AOE effects... but you think lettting the healer pick up slack for your laziness is cool.
Quote:
Any warlock raiding build should have at least 10 points in Destruction for Improved Shadow Bolt and Bane. Sedrix somehow thinks that Drain Life can do as much damage as shadow bolts. It can't.
NO I did not ever say anything of the sort-- I never mentioned ANY Destruction spells or Affliction spells at all. And, you should edit your message, because my original comments are not there for me to explain myself.
And, that's why Demonology is appropriate for raiding.
*Bows out*
Edited, Apr 15th 2008 3:53pm by sederix
Edited, Apr 15th 2008 3:54pm by sederix
Sederix, over half of what you say is utter crap. Always has been, always will be. Also, moderators do not delete your posts, users like myself that know half of what you say is crap and rate you down put your posts to sub-default, which means they don't show up anymore unless you remove the filter. Let me remove my filter, and quote some of the things you said in this post that are flat out WRONG.
You can wear both at once, your stupid and had no clue what he was talking about. Damage mitigation is pointless for a lock in most raid environments, as if you know what the hell your doing, you'll never get hit. He mentioned he's more interested in raiding, so therefore damage mitigation is a moot point.
Demo raiding is about pushing out more damage than affliction. If you have over 1000 unbuffed Spell Damage, with all the +Spell Damage that deep Demo offers, you better be pushing out more damage that an affliction lock. Affliction is a great way to put out decent damage before you get better gear. If your under 800 or so Spell Damage, and have horrible hit, then yes, Affliction will push out more damage, but once you get geared better, Demo pulls ahead, plus you have your pet dealing more damage. Saccing your bet for the buffs is more of a Destro thing, hence why the Destro builds are 0/21/40.
Right there you said you don't have anything in Destro. No Imp SB and Bane is gimp.
Not that I'm arguing Demonology isnt good for raiding, I beleive it can be, if you are geared properly for it.
Quote:
You cant wear both at once, because you need to be specialized in each type of tailoring in order to make and wear a set.
Anyways, I hear Destruction is popular for raiding, but I think Demonology is the most practical.
You get reduced threat; up to 30% additional damage mitigation; extra resistances to spells and AOE effects; and more endurance in general than other warlocks of different specializations. All those things are great for PVP or raiding. Plus, if your minion is about to bite it, you can turn it into a personal buff that gives you some other abilities (useful during long boss fights).
Demonology warlocks are very hard to kill with spells, and it's useless to try without help.
Anyways, I hear Destruction is popular for raiding, but I think Demonology is the most practical.
You get reduced threat; up to 30% additional damage mitigation; extra resistances to spells and AOE effects; and more endurance in general than other warlocks of different specializations. All those things are great for PVP or raiding. Plus, if your minion is about to bite it, you can turn it into a personal buff that gives you some other abilities (useful during long boss fights).
Demonology warlocks are very hard to kill with spells, and it's useless to try without help.
You can wear both at once, your stupid and had no clue what he was talking about. Damage mitigation is pointless for a lock in most raid environments, as if you know what the hell your doing, you'll never get hit. He mentioned he's more interested in raiding, so therefore damage mitigation is a moot point.
Quote:
Demonology is more for empowering your minions and surviving long fights than it is for brute power, so get lots of bonus damage but dont expect to generally out DPS a mage or Affliction warlock.
Demo raiding is about pushing out more damage than affliction. If you have over 1000 unbuffed Spell Damage, with all the +Spell Damage that deep Demo offers, you better be pushing out more damage that an affliction lock. Affliction is a great way to put out decent damage before you get better gear. If your under 800 or so Spell Damage, and have horrible hit, then yes, Affliction will push out more damage, but once you get geared better, Demo pulls ahead, plus you have your pet dealing more damage. Saccing your bet for the buffs is more of a Destro thing, hence why the Destro builds are 0/21/40.
Quote:
I got 18/43/0, because I like channeling and I like instant-instant cast spells, while being able to use my minions to keep me alive.
Right there you said you don't have anything in Destro. No Imp SB and Bane is gimp.
Not that I'm arguing Demonology isnt good for raiding, I beleive it can be, if you are geared properly for it.
Your post wasn't deleted, it was rated "Sub Default". If you want to see it, change your filter settings. Lathais pretty much covered everything I was going to say.
Loki wrote:
Imp Drain Soul is questionably expendable. It stands to reason that a lock who is doing "early raiding" is doing it with people of a similar gear level. Yes, he may only be putting out 700 TPS, but if the tank is just barely geared up for the encounter his TPS is going to be pretty **** poor as well.
Good point, good point. A bit higher up the scale however, and threat really is no problem even as Number 1 Damage on Boss Fights.
As for the Shadow Embrace, I know I read somewhere why it wasn't nearly as good as it sounds, although I can't seem to find it now. Gist of it was the fact that it only reduces White damage, if the Tank is uncrush/uncrit then that damage wont be much of a problem - add on the fact that while the damage is equated before the hit takes place, it does not account for the tank's avoidance levels, and while each hit still does 5% less damage, the overall damage mitigation brought by the effect is even lower than 5% White.
We now can go back to your point about early raiding, and then SE again holds some validity. I'll retract my statement but I would just like to point out it's really not all that great for 5 Talent Points.
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