[math thread] Shot rotations and weapon speed.Follow

I started off doing this just on my own, trying to find what the best attack speed would be (since the model in the stickies did not display, to my knowledge, anything about how haste affects steady shot; and did not display 1:1.5 rotations). My analysis is solely based on shot rotations, not other criteria, and is therefore subject to some error (just as any math is, unless it's very involved).

Assumptions
For this bit, I am using the model of steady shot’s cast time presented in wowwiki, that steady shot is 1.5s / (multiplicative of haste effects). I am also under the assumption that lag does not affect macro-based shot rotations, although I could be wrong. If I am wrong, I am assuming that ping/k should be added to the 1:1, and 2*ping/k should be added to a 1:1.5 rotation.
(note that k is simply the roman-numeral for 1000, not some special variable)

1. For a 1:1 rotation, it should be steady shot cast time + 0.5 seconds. Minimum is 1.5 second shot rotation.
2. For a 1:1.5 rotation, it should be steady shot cast time + 1.0 seconds (for 2 rotations, you need a GCD between steady shots – with an autoshot inside – and an extra auto-shot, 2 seconds total, so 1 second per rotation). Minimum is 2.25 second shot rotation. (Assuming 3 total GCD’s, 4.5 second double-rotation).

Math
The math for all of these is to find the steady shot cast time, (15% haste for quiver is assumed, 15% haste for IAotH, and 20% haste for SS – assumed for BM builds), then to add the time for the shot rotation (0.5 for 1:1 and 1.0 for 1:1.5) to find the base shot rotation, then multiply by the haste effects to get the most efficient base weapon speed. I am not including all the work, since it would get fairly redundant to see the same formula posted for each method.

1. BM, with IAotH on, at a 1:1 rotation, 2.4 base attack speed is best.
2. BM at a 1:1 rotation, 2.2 base attack speed is best.
3. MM/SV, with IAotH on, at a 1:1 rotation, 2.2 base attack speed is best.
4. MM/SV at a 1:1 rotation, 2.1 base attack speed is best.
5. MM/SV, with IAotH on, at a 1:1.5 rotation, 3.0 base attack speed is best.
6. MM/SV at a 1:1.5 rotation, 2.7 base attack speed is best.

Notes
There are a few things I would like to note (some which may be known already). First is that no BM spec is going to use a 1:1.5 shot rotation. Second, the attack speeds which are most optimal for 1:1 rotations are not seen on any epic ranged weapons in-game (fastest is 2.6).

Rapid Fire
If rapid fire will bring you to below a 1.5 attack speed, it will clip auto-shots. Thus, if your hasted attack speed is above 2.1, you will not see clipping of auto-shots. Other haste effects are not factored into these equations, but you could use the formulas presented to come up with the math if you had to.
Thus, any weapon designed around a 1:1 rotation is going to see clipping of auto-shots during rapid fire, unless only arcane and multishot are used. However, any weapon designed around a 1:1.5 rotation can drop to a 1:1 rotation but have some dead space in between shots. Thus, I would argue rapid fire is better on a 1:1.5 bow.

Implications
This model supports MM or SV builds in favor of BM builds, albeit that lag was not introduced into the formula. Since lag varies per person (some people get 30 ping, some get 300 ping) I would say there isn’t a “standardization” of weapon speeds, however I hope I have given people the formulae to figure out for themselves what they should use.
While this is probably very counter-intuitive to most of the posters on here (myself included), I do believe that the pure damage in high-end BM allows it to stay on top, despite the pros in weapon speed. I went into this just to figure out what weapon speed I should look for, not to come up with proof that MM is better.

Discussion
Please...discuss. I don't want to start a war between the MM fans and the BM fans, I don't want to have people simply using "I top damage meters and I'm <spec>" as an arguement, I'd rather see emperical or solid theory arguements, or constructively critical comments.

Edit
I changed a few errors in the 1:1.5 shot rotation, which also lead me to drop a previous conclusion I had. I still hold by the others, though.


Edited, Apr 10th 2008 12:13pm by skribs

Edited, Apr 10th 2008 12:18pm by skribs

I'm currently using the Steelhawk crossbow and a 1:1.5 shot rotation as a BM hunter. I don't normally see myself clipping shots, but was wondering why a BM using 1:1.5 is a bad thing?

You are clipping.

When I read over all the theorycraft and formulas, I get a head-ache.
Can you maybe use my details to come up with a number. Then that will help me (and others) get a grip on how to calculate their ideal weapon speed.

I am a BM hunter, so i have Serpent's Swiftness (naturally), and a 15% quiver, but I'm not specced into IAotH.
I am using the Rocket-Ripper X-54, which has a weapon speed of 2.9
My tooltip attack speed shows as 2.1
My latency usually fluctuates around 300ms
I use a 1:1 rotation, even though i realise the weapon speed is slow for that rotation and there is some dead time.
But it IS fun to maintain a 1:1 rotation while the Rapid Fire is activated.
Rapid Fire + AP trinket + 1:1 = good fun.

Is that all the information needed to calculate an ideal weapon speed?
Would I see a large increase in DPS from, say, dropping by the AH and picking up a Valanos? It's only 0.1 quicker, and very similar DPS, so it doesn't seem like it.

I know 300 is a lot. I'm sure it's because the Oceanic servers are not actually located anywhere near Oceania. Convenient, huh?


I totally agree, I just mentioned it because of the speed of the weapon.
So a 2.9 isn't quite as bad as I originally thought.

One weird thing, which others with high latency may have noticed:
If I anticipate when the auto-shot is coming (or refer to the auto-shot cast bar from the ZHunter mod) I can press the Steady Shot button, and the auto-shot will go off before it starts the cast for the Steady Shot.

when building a macro for 1:1.5 shot rotations you need to build it round the cooldown of either arcane shot or multishot. 2.9 weapons speed is ideal in this regard as you can fit 1 arcane and 1 multi into your castsequence and it takes 10.09 seconds to get throught the sequence.
using a 2.8 weapons speed it only takes 9.74 to get through the sequence assuming nothing clips. which means the second time you get to multishot you are still waiting on the cooldown for it. you can always put an extra autosteady into the sequence, but this reduces it dps efficiency.
However it is the ideal point in the sequence to use any other cooldown (like mend pet, md, trap, scorpid sting ect) as although it will eventually clip an autoshot it is still more efficient that dropping and extra GCD into a standard 1:1.5 shot rotation.
it's for that reason i've decided to go with my 2.8 steelhawk with and extra auto steady over the 3.0 wraithtail longbow with a straight 1:1.5 based on the multishot cd. even though i'd like the agil cause i'm survival and don't need the hit on the stealhawk as i'm hitcapped without it.

There's been a TON of discussion about haste/weapon speed/shot rotations in this thread on Elitist Jerks.

It's a very long thread that's been going on now for almost a year and it started off as a thread about SV raiding only. There's much too much info there for me to summarize here; I suggest you take a look. However, towards the end of the thread you get some very interesting posts debating the DPS potential of the 3:2 rotation vs. the 1:1.5 rotation. Apparently, under the right conditions, the 3:2 shows a significant increase in DPS over 1:1.5, allowing SV hunters to match and (with optimal group conditions) even surpass a BM hunter's DPS. Look specifically for posts by Kurkis as he's showing logs of huge amounts of DPS as SV; on page 63 he posts the macro that he uses.

I've been a SV hunter since the start and decided to try BM for a while since I joined a new guild that's doing TK/SSC... I wanted to see how much more DPS I can throw out. After being top 3 (as being, IMO somewhat undergeared) in various attempts on Gruul's and other fights as BM, I decided to switch back to a 0/20/41 build and test out the theories from that thread. And, although I haven't had a chance to raid since my respec, my numbers already parallel what I was doing as BM. Granted... I might have totally played BM incorrectly with regards to gear/pet use since I wasn't completely used to it.

Anyway... my point is that I'm glad that people are really taking time to try and unravel the complexities behind hunter DPS mechanics. I really suggest that you take a look at the thread on Elitist Jerks as it contains loads of theorycraft and numbers to support the theorycraft.

P.S.: I'm using the macro referenced above and use AutoHotKey so I don't have to break my wrists repeatedly hitting the key that I have the macro mapped to.

Edited, Apr 11th 2008 5:23pm by Rycerz

The assumption is that you're using a macro similar to the following:

/cast !Auto Shot 
/cast Steady Shot

What I gather from the previously linked thread on Elitist Jerks is that 3:2, 2:1, and 1:1 all use this same macro; it uses only Steady Shot and Auto Shot. The difference in the actual rotation occurs when certain levels of haste are achieved.

Up until the 2.3 patch, the standard 1:1 (BM) and 1:1.5 (SV/MM) rotations were achieved by using a /castsequence macro and included Auto Shot and Steady Shot, and for SV/MM, Arcane shot and sometimes a Multi-Shot as well; for example:

/castsequence reset=3/target !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, 
Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot

or

/castsequence reset=3/target !Auto Shot, Steady Shot  
/castrandom Arcane Shot (remove this line for a 1:1 BM rotation)

Therefore, using a /cast /cast macro:

3:2 is the standard BM rotation:
3 Steady Shots for every 2 Auto Shots

2:1 is what SV hunters get when using the same macro:
2 Steady Shots for every 1 Auto Shot

1:1 is what BM hunters get when under haste (i.e. Rapid Fire):
1 Steady Shot for every 1 Auto Shot

Using a /castsequence macro:

1:1.5 is the assumed standard rotation for SV hunters because of their slower attack speed:
1.5 "Specials" (i.e. Steady, Arcane, Multi) for every 1 Auto Shot (or 3 Specials for every 2 Auto Shots).

1:1 is the common rotation for

The theory is that even though it seems common sense that a 1:1.5 (with Arcane and/or Multi) would be highest DPS for SV, something about the interaction of the cooldowns of Auto Shot, Arcane, and Multi cause for a delay in shots firing. In addition, the use of /castsequence introduces the problem of server response time which, in cases of players with high latency issues, will reduce DPS even more. A pure Steady/Auto rotation using a /cast /cast macro seems to fire off faster.

This is obviously assuming certain levels of haste. In the case of a 0/20/41 spec, the availability of two successive Rapid Fires (using Readniness) and other haste increasing trinkets (i.e. Dragonspine Trophy), group buffs (i.e. Heroism), and items (i.e. Haste Potion, Drums of Battle, etc.) allows the hunter to be at the speed of a BM for a large percentage of a fight. And that speed is what produces such large DPS.

A Disclaimer:
I may be mistaken on some of these points. I've tried to follow many different discussions regarding shot rotations, and terminology seems to always differ a bit. However, the above seems to be the accepted terminology on Elitist Jerks and I would side with their posts because of the abundance of WWS logs to back them up.

Edited, Apr 12th 2008 2:05pm by Rycerz

As an aside... with regard to the above, wouldn't it be nice if Blizzard created a deep SV talent in the new expansion that would increase ranged speed?

Edited, Apr 11th 2008 2:50pm by Rycerz

Its not just when the pet is dead, if kill command is in there for some reason it has the tendency to chain much more steadyshots.


And better safe then sorry :P

So let me get this straight..

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot


using this macro will generate the 1:1 or 3:2 shot rotation, depending on attack speed. So using this same macro will produce the greatest dps for any spec and attack speed, in general?

get the +12 agi/3%critdmg meta, replace abacus.
problem solved.

there is no way to perfect that speed.
You could do auto > steady > auto > auto > steady > auto and repeat, but it would be less dps then a 1:1 rotation with 12 extra agi, 3% more critdmg and an additional +dmg trinket.